Will AP champions have a larger panoply of items in pre-season Riot?

Elohaven·Nov 6, 2017·79 votes·9,537 views

There's never been an issue of AP being generally weak.

It's just that AP isn't that great. AD items are in a huge variety but AP is a bit dull.

101 Comments

RiotSparkleNov 7, 201745 votes

Good use of panoply. That's a 10 cent word, as my grandpa would say.

You probably won't see a ton of sweeping item changes/additions for this Preseason though, honestly. There's a ton going on already with runes and champion base stat changes and we'll need some time to iterate on those systems. As mentioned by Trading Stance over here we are working in the AP item space but the timeline is not set in stone.

AmazoXNov 7, 20172 votes

[{quoted}](name=Riot Sparkle,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=iEpoUIEI,comment-id=000b,timestamp=2017-11-07T01:05:25.363+0000)

Good use of panopoly. That's a 10 cent word, as my grandpa would say.

You probably won't see a ton of sweeping item changes/additions for this Preseason though, honestly. There's a ton going on already with runes and champion base stat changes and we'll need some time to iterate on those systems. As mentioned by Trading Stance over here we are working in the AP item space but the timeline is not set in stone.

Good luck!

Orochi YasuoNov 7, 20172 votes

[{quoted}](name=Riot Sparkle,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=iEpoUIEI,comment-id=000b,timestamp=2017-11-07T01:05:25.363+0000)

Good use of panoply. That's a 10 cent word, as my grandpa would say.

You probably won't see a ton of sweeping item changes/additions for this Preseason though, honestly. There's a ton going on already with runes and champion base stat changes and we'll need some time to iterate on those systems. As mentioned by Trading Stance over here we are working in the AP item space but the timeline is not set in stone.

Hey just out of curiosity,, will we see another lethality item eventually?

iamthegoatofwarNov 7, 20172 votes

Dear god please no

Critmaster GarenNov 7, 201716 votes

[{quoted}](name=Riot Sparkle,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=iEpoUIEI,comment-id=000b,timestamp=2017-11-07T01:05:25.363+0000)

Good use of panoply. That's a 10 cent word, as my grandpa would say.

You probably won't see a ton of sweeping item changes/additions for this Preseason though, honestly. There's a ton going on already with runes and champion base stat changes and we'll need some time to iterate on those systems. As mentioned by Trading Stance over here we are working in the AP item space but the timeline is not set in stone.

how about just increasing the price of crit itemization? and some price reductions on ap items?

marksmen 3 item core builds right now are item 3031 item 3087 item 3094 are 500 to 1000 gold cheaper than the 3 item builds of other carry classes.

is there a specific reason why a lategame, and item scaling class of champions has cheaper items and power spikes sooner off the same amount of gold as mages, bruisers and assassins who are supposed to have the most game impact by midgame?

item 3071 item 3053 item 1001 item 3742 = 9400 gold

item 3089 item 1001 item 3165 item 3102 = 10000 gold

item 3147 item 3142 item 3814 item 1001 = 9200 gold

item 3031 item 3046 item 3087 item 1001 = 8900 gold

how does this make sense to anyone on your balance team?

an its not like marksmen items are less slot efficient than these other builds. they power spike earlier off cheaper itemization and from there on out keep outscaling other classes.

why are people suprised that other lanes cant ever carry against a marksman when marksmen get comparable power spikes off less gold, and from there on out just keep outscaling other carries?

there are two ways to deal with the current situation imo. either increase the price of zeal items straight up by 300 gold and make marksmen take longer to scale again. (and no stat increases this time! just a straight up nerf to zeal items. marksmen are already outshadowing everyone on 5 items. they dont need to scale later and harder, they just need to scale later)

or reduce 5 item build effectiveness on marksmen. they get to power spike around the same time as other carries, but dont get to outscale everybody anymore. one option would be to nerf infinity edges crit damage passive and slight reductions to the stats on zeal items to make their cheap price justifyable. this would also solve the problem of marksmen outbursting mages and assassins with crit streaks on their auto attacks.

Son FokuNov 7, 20172 votes

Those are some odd combinations you listed there...

Critmaster GarenNov 7, 201711 votes

[{quoted}](name=Son Foku,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=iEpoUIEI,comment-id=000b00030000,timestamp=2017-11-07T14:39:05.365+0000)

Those are some odd combinations you listed there...

theyre really not. theyre representative.

marksmen core builds right now are infinity edge and two zeal items. it doesnt matter which zeal item you chose. theyre all the same price. warlords bloodlust compensates for the lack of lifesteal in their builds.

you can replace the dead mans for any other armor/health item which all cost 2900 gold, or item 3065 visage on the bruiser build which would reduce the total price by 100 gold, or replace cleaver with item 3078 which would increase the price by 700 gold.

for mages you could replace the banshees with another ap item like item 3157 which would end 100 gold cheaper, but still 1000 gold more expensive than a 3 item marksman build.

for assassins you could replace the edge of night with either item 3156 or item 3074 or item 3812 . in those cases the total price of the build would increase by several 100 gold.

you can vary these builds around a little bit, but the point im trying to make is clear. the standart 3 item marksman build for carries like Tristana KogMaw Twitch right now is several 100 gold to a 1000 gold cheaper than comparable builds of other classes. which causes them to hit their power spikes a lot sooner than these other types of carries.

why do you think a 3/0 marksman carries games harder around midgame than a 5/0 mage or top laner right now? support protection and tank peel add onto the problem, but marksmen itemization in itself is overtuned.

Bob the ToastrNov 7, 20172 votes

The ap one isn't. Name me a single champion besides Veigar that takes Deathcap as a first, second, or even third item unless they're already 30/0. If you replaced deathcap with void staff that would be closer. Maybe replace banshee's with a Liandry's.

I agree with you that ADC itemization is too cheap, but it seems for ap like you were just picking the most expensive items.

Critmaster GarenNov 7, 20179 votes

[{quoted}](name=Bob the Toastr,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=iEpoUIEI,comment-id=000b0003000000000000,timestamp=2017-11-07T15:01:16.486+0000)

The ap one isn't. Name me a single champion besides Veigar that takes Deathcap as a first, second, or even third item unless they're already 30/0. If you replaced deathcap with void staff that would be closer. Maybe replace banshee's with a Liandry's.

I agree with you that ADC itemization is too cheap, but it seems for ap like you were just picking the most expensive items.

item 3089 item 3165 for mages is a comparable power spike to item 3031 and a completed item 3086 item.

the combination is not odd. it is THE marksman ad core item compared to THE mage ap core item.

item 3031 crit damage passive is a multiplier to the marksmans critical strike chance and ad, the same way item 3089 passive is a multiplier to the mages ap off his items.

you would never rush death cap and buy it around 3rd item if you pick it up. in most cases your first item would be morellos. but the reason mages arent buying deathcap at all right now is exactly because its so expensive that delays their 3 item power spike too much.

3 seasons ago, deathcap was picked up as frequently on mages as infinity edge on marksmen. and the item had the same passive back then as it does now. it was sometimes even built as a first item rush on mages who were snowballing in their lane.

replace item 3089 with item 3285 in a mage core build and youre STILL paying several 100 gold more than a marksman does for his 3 item power spike.

item 3285 item 3165 item 3157 is still 9000 gold compared to item 3031 + double zeal 8600 gold.

from there on you can keep going with penetration items. item 3135 2650 gold vs. item 3036 2600 gold. it doesnt get any better.

now if were regarding the fact that marksmen just keep scaling from there on out as the game progresses, and mages start falling off, then it shouldnt be a surprise that marksmen are overbearing at the moment.

mages, assassins and bruisers used to power spike at around 15 to 20 minutes and had their own game phases where they had the most game impact up to around 30 minutes where they started to fall off.

marksmen used to become relevant around 25 to 30 minutes where they started to outscale these other carries.

right now marksmen are just power spiking sooner and scaling harder, and a major reason is that their itemization is just way cheaper than it should be.

MyozthirirnNov 7, 20173 votes

The fact that no champion can pick deathcap earlier than 5th item is the problem we are trying to discuss here.

C9 Scott Free Nov 7, 20172 votes

[{quoted}](name=Riot Sparkle,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=iEpoUIEI,comment-id=000b,timestamp=2017-11-07T01:05:25.363+0000)

Good use of panoply. That's a 10 cent word, as my grandpa would say.

You probably won't see a ton of sweeping item changes/additions for this Preseason though, honestly. There's a ton going on already with runes and champion base stat changes and we'll need some time to iterate on those systems. As mentioned by Trading Stance over here we are working in the AP item space but the timeline is not set in stone.

Honestly, just buff up our AP values. It's pretty lame right now with current AP values and the game state as it is

MelledoneusNov 6, 201732 votes

Congratulations. You made me look up a word.

WeatheredNov 6, 201723 votes

Upvoted for "panoply"

DaNinadNov 6, 201718 votes

item 3151 I don't know about anyone else, but I want this split into a burst item and a tank shredding item, not both.

AirKingNeoNov 6, 201711 votes

There's never been an issue of AP being generally weak.

Someone says it, finally.

Votable JesterNov 7, 20175 votes

People say that all the time though [sg-lux-2]

TS MediaNov 7, 20174 votes

I said it and got downvoted to pieces... hard to say, really.

Meep ManNov 7, 20175 votes

That's mainly if you call MAGES weak, as MAGES aren't weak. It's just their itemization is really boring and bland, with most items either being used for their stats and passives that aren't really cool but still useful. Or they are Zhonya's, which just has a stupid active that will always make it relevant. It's clear why some AP items aren't picked as they don't fit into any of the above, such as Rabadon's.

If you look at the closest equivalents for each item, you will notice this as the AD counterpart items are just much cooler and come equipped with a lot of effects that bring a lot more wow when you read them. item 3285 - item 3087 item 3089 - item 3031 item 3151 - item 3153 item 3135 - item 3036 / item 3033 item 3157 - item 3026 item 3102 - item 3814

TS MediaNov 7, 20172 votes

For clarification, I got downvoted for saying mages AREN'T weak and their itemizations aren't WEAK, just one dimensional with no diversity.

Automated RivenNov 7, 20172 votes

Their items cost to much. Ap should be a cheaper stat the ad.

AirKingNeoNov 7, 20172 votes

Where have you been for the past two months?

The EcdysiastNov 7, 20176 votes

They've removed around 300 AP from the game since DFG.

WDG DevourNov 6, 20175 votes

What do you want, crit AP items?

MalchaNov 6, 201780 votes

I haven't seen someone miss the point of a post this hard in a while.

WDG DevourNov 7, 20173 votes

Please enlighten me, as a ADC main I would like to know what AP mains want from their items exactly... I'm pretty sure if you specified what you want it would be easier for Riot to understand also.

DuskDaUmbreonNov 7, 201720 votes

I just want variety for everyone. I want every class to have variety. Hell, I want every champion to have at least two rush options.

Karn BishopNov 7, 201723 votes

He didn't miss the point, he knows exactly what you mean but it bothers him that giving ap item parity might make ap users on parity with adc for play potential and he doesn't like that.

starelementpokeNov 6, 201719 votes

{quoted}

What do you want, crit AP items?

I... would be interested in this.

shicky97Nov 6, 20177 votes

There actually was one, but it never left the concept stage of development. http://leagueoflegends.wikia.com/wiki/Oracle%27s_Hood

ElikainNov 6, 20175 votes

Not crit items for AP champs per se but at least increased damage for spells from some criteria. Some champions can already do double damage when certain conditions are meant (Anivia, Eve) so if Riot ever does this, they'd need to be careful not to make a new DFG. But Luden's already does this in some regard (add extra flat damage + from your own AP ratio on one spell).

5000000000000000Nov 7, 20172 votes

Some sort of crit amplification AP item could work really well, I think. There are a lot of mages whose spells already crit.

Complete list of all AP spells that crit. Anivia Evelynn Fizz Gnar Gragas Karthus KogMaw Leblanc Nidalee Ryze Vladimir

Some possible additional candidates include Azir (multiple soldiers do additional damage) (passive explosion) Cassiopeia (bonus E damage) Corki (big rocket) Karma (empowered abilities) Nunu (fully charged ult) Xerath (center of W)

The Ender CobraNov 7, 201711 votes

Chogath Would you like to rephrase that?

starelementpokeNov 7, 201718 votes

[{quoted}](name=The Ender Cobra,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=iEpoUIEI,comment-id=000300010003,timestamp=2017-11-07T00:39:53.367+0000)

Would you like to rephrase that?

.... No. Because Cho's R is True DMG, so AP crit wouldn't effect it. I'm more interested in it for Garen

The Ender CobraNov 7, 201711 votes

Veigar

starelementpokeNov 7, 201710 votes

[{quoted}](name=The Ender Cobra,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=iEpoUIEI,comment-id=00030001000300000000,timestamp=2017-11-07T02:08:57.153+0000)

Soraka

Sir RethorNov 7, 201711 votes

You can’t heal them if they die from full health

starelementpokeNov 7, 201712 votes

[{quoted}](name=Sir Rethor,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=iEpoUIEI,comment-id=0003000100030000000000000000,timestamp=2017-11-07T04:50:33.153+0000)

You can’t heal them if they die from full health

Who said I was planning on healing?

zero356Nov 7, 20172 votes

BRING BACK WIZARD GAREN

KídáNov 7, 20172 votes

I for one, would like to have alternatives for morellonomicon and void staff

IGotScuttleCrabsNov 7, 20173 votes

That would require item 3165 to not give every damn stat a mage could ever want. I swear that item is a major issue for the mage class just because it offers a heavy dose of everything. Second highest base ap- check (second to Dcap and starts off better than RoA AND Seraphs pre completion) Highest base CDR- check Mana- check Mana regen- check Oh, and a solid secondary passive in Grieves Wounds.

More on topic though, I'd love them to add that lost chapters lineup from Black Market Brawlers.

ElikainNov 6, 20174 votes

Burst mages aren't much different from AP assassins really. The reason why AP items work for such a big general group of champions is because many of them share the basic mage trait - scale off AP and do more damage. There's some variety to builds (scaling mages, mpen for assassins, Gunblade and a bit spellvamp) but overall, the core is the same.

Teridax68Nov 6, 20179 votes

The same could be said for AD champions, who all scale off AD and do more damage. However, we have options for AD marksmen, assassins, fighters, etc., yet AP mages, assassins and fighters all still share largely the same item pool. When juggernauts got updated, only AD itemization changed for them, and when assassins got a rework, only AD assassins got their special stat made for them. There has been a clear and consistent imbalance in the way the two stats have been addressed in itemization, and large-scale changes to classes that featured both AP and AD champions catered exclusively to AD itemization, to the detriment of AP champions: not only is their itemization less diverse, often champions are pushed to buy items with stats that they shouldn't really have, namely AP assassins getting durability off of Protobelt, Gunblade, and Zhonya's. There isn't a large enough body of items to support, say, tanky AP builds in the same respect as tanky AD builds, and it's not even that easy to go for a full damage squishy build either, as most AP items tend to go for a middle-of-the-road approach and offer a bit of health or resists in addition to AP and CDR. It's not a great state of affairs, and there isn't really that much making AP a special case relative to AD in how more or less deserving AP users are of diverse itemization.

DuskDaUmbreonNov 7, 20176 votes

Because the AD champions play highly differently. An assassin has absolutely no need for AS, nor really any need for crit or lifesteal. Marksmen (generally) prefer AS and Crit to lethality. Juggernauts take items like item 3071 . Bruisers might take a mix of any of these.

item 3147 , item 3085 , and item 3071 are all nothing alike. Meanwhile, item 3089 can be used by just about any AP user. item 3165 gives the exact same useful stats for Fizz as it does Ahri .

Teridax68Nov 7, 20174 votes

Sure, but AP fighters play very differently from AP assassins, who play differently from mages. As said above, an AP fighter would love a heavy AP + health item, but that's not really something an AP assassin wants, and the many manaless AP champions don't really want to opt into the mana-heavy itemization of mages. We also see several marksmen pick Duskblade and Black Cleaver (an item that's popular on assassins as well, so it really is universal), and when Lethality was released it was heavily co-opted by marksmen when it was successful (this still happens, too), so AD itemization isn't really as super-distinct as it's made out to be.

There have also been many occasions, which persist today, of AP champions experiencing legitimate problems from their lack of item diversity: AP fighters often struggle to get tankiness and damage at the same time, and when they could with Rylai's, the item was so over-statted and generic that it had to be nerfed, as it was also being used by mages. Assassins who want to go for flat pen with Haunting Guise are railroaded into building a) health, a stat they don't really want to prioritize spending gold on, and b) Liandry's, a DoT item that doesn't really help their burst in the best way. Whereas even squishy AD champions can easily purchase life steal and make use of it (via Death's Dance or Ravenous Hydra, for example), AP champions have no major sustain option besides Catalyst of Aeons (exclusive to mana champions) and Gunblade (which is mostly bought by assassins for its burst active). AP champions play just as differently as AD champions, and also want very different stats based on their class, yet they're still being forced to contend with a much smaller pool of items, many of which cover multiple functions instead of just one (Morellonomicon is notorious for this, which is why it's essential to most AP builds).

SkorchNov 6, 20172 votes

I could almost guarentee no, simply because RR is changing so much. I do know Riot has said that with recent talk of AP itemization they want to give it another pass, but it wouldnt be this preseason because of RR and it would need a midseason or preseason for sure. I would guess this midseason will be mage itemization.

RocketRelmNov 7, 20173 votes

I'm honestly a little scared about the AP itemization overhaul, given how the last one went.

SkorchNov 7, 20172 votes

The last one wasnt an overhaul. Just a small update. They changed and add a small amount of items.

With the amount of people complaining about it being stale, im guessing a large part of it will be changing build paths and base items. As well as making them have more diversity.

TheorexNov 7, 20175 votes

You mean Morello got buffed and everything else got nerfed :D

When I say nerfed. It changed mid lane to being all about bullying. Removed slow playing champions early for bursting dps champions late or bursting champions early. Almost of champions got hurt with Rylai's nerf. Yeah Syndra and a few others were abusing it. But it was being used more for the good of itself, than being abused. (Was a malzahar main prior to rework. I am sad now)

SkorchNov 7, 20172 votes

I agree with most of this... however i think you are heavily underplaying Rylais, it was a little insane before. Although i do think it was overnerfed, it was DEFINITELY heavily abused.

I think they shouldve nerfed either the slow, or the stats. Because a 400HP 100AP item that slows for 40% was insane. Either make it like 300HP 65AP and be a Slow tool. Or, nerf the slow but let it keep its status as a HEAVY AP item. BUUUUUT They nerfed both.

The Last BalladNov 6, 20171 votes

They actually touched on this with a dev post(or something like that).

They plan on getting it out sometime during late this year and early next(if I remember correctly from one of meddler's posts), with a look at starting items(hopefully item 3165 will no longer be mandatory for everyone that doesn't want to wait for item 3003 or item 3027 to stack, or not have GW, it will take either but both would be nice) and choices mages have in general, maybe like the fact that there are only 3 possible mpen items( item 3020 item 3151 item 3135 ) vs the 5 possible armor pen items( item 3142 item 3033 item 3147 item 3814 item 3036 , technically 4 as lw builds into 2 items, but those items confer different bonuses so they count as separate items)