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@Meddler: Lux, Brand, Syndra, Ziggs, etc. What's up with them?

darkdill··10 votes·1,108 views

What do they have in common? The way the mana regeneration changes for S5 hurt them. They used to be able to lane pretty stable, but now they all have severe issues when pitted against meta mid-lane Champions like Ahri, Katarina, Xerath, Annie, etc., far beyond what they used to have. Before, it was just how those mid-lane assassins could dodge their skillshots and then murder them. Now they can't even play defensive and farm at long range with abilities because they'll have burnouts too much. And if you go in to last-hit with basic attacks? You get jumped and will probably die. It's especially nightmarish versus Zed since you can't rush Chalice of Harmony first; that's suicide. You have to rush Seeker's Armguard vs Zed.

And even in late-game scenarios, I find my Lux games are continuously resulting in mana burnouts when I'm level 18 and have either double Morello or a Morello/Grail combo. That just feels obnoxious. Same problem with Ziggs too. And all the while, Xerath is left laughing at the other two because his passive means he'll never have burnouts.

This issue has been raised before, but no one at Riot seems to care. Are the aforementioned mages just going to have to sit out of this season because of inferiority to the meta mages?

17 Comments

Kögâ6 votes

Don't you wish you could just rush damage and not worry about resources?

ModAcademy Kayn2 votes

Katarina Garen Da perfect couple.

SouL1ess3 votes

Problem is they pretty much have higher mana costs for less damage compared to those picks. Ahri's Q dealing essentially higher effectual damage than Brand's Blazed-W while having less mana cost per individual cast (when Brand need at LEAST 2 spells to get that damage out) is a big plus for Ahri.

And Brand's non-Blazed W is useless. Not worthy at all to cast W first (especially in lane, where mana requires careful management) unless you are running away. The damage to mana-used ratio is bullcrap; same with Lux's E.

darkdill1 votes

This.

Fasmodey1 votes

{quoted}

Problem is they pretty much have higher mana costs for less damage compared to those picks. Ahri's Q dealing essentially higher effectual damage than Brand's Blazed-W while having less mana cost per individual cast (when Brand need at LEAST 2 spells to get that damage out) is a big plus for Ahri.

And Brand's non-Blazed W is useless. Not worthy at all to cast W first (especially in lane, where mana requires careful management) unless you are running away. The damage to mana-used ratio is bullcrap; same with Lux's E.

LoL, are you kidding? You're dealing 100 + %8 of enemy's maximum health with one skill while you have 39 ap. And it's pretty hard to dodge.

SmokingPuffin3 votes

{quoted}

Problem is they pretty much have higher mana costs for less damage compared to those picks. Ahri's Q dealing essentially higher effectual damage than Brand's Blazed-W while having less mana cost per individual cast (when Brand need at LEAST 2 spells to get that damage out) is a big plus for Ahri.

Suppose it's level 1. Both Ahri and Brand have 40 AP. Ahri ranked Q, Brand ranked W, they're both shooting at a target with 700 HP and 30 MR.

Ahri Q will deal 54 magic and 54 true damage, for a net of 95 damage after resistance. She spent 65 mana.

Brand W will deal 99 magic and 8% max health as magic, for a net of 120 damage after resistance. He spent 70 mana.

It doesn't look to me like Brand has any cause for concern in a damage race.

SouL1ess1 votes

Brand's mana cost goes from 70 to 120 while Ahri's goes from 65 to 85. Meanwhile, their skill's damage growth per rank is the same (Ahri grows at 50 max damage per rank, Brand's non-Blaze W grows at 45 damage per rank and Blazed W at 56.25).

Brand's Blazed W is a very good skill, but again he needs to cast 2 spells for it to have a blaze effect, which means high mana strain.

Comparing level 1 is IMO biased since 1)It's the skill that both champion max in most cases, and 2)Most skills cost the same mana for the same damage at rank 1.

SmokingPuffin2 votes

Brand's mana cost goes from 70 to 120 while Ahri's goes from 65 to 85. Meanwhile, their skill's damage growth per rank is the same (Ahri grows at 50 max damage per rank, Brand's non-Blaze W grows at 45 damage per rank and Blazed W at 56.25).

If you do the comparisons at higher levels, Brand's advantage only grows. Ahri W and E don't do that much damage. Targets keep increasing in health. Brand starts getting Blaze bonus effects. Brand has huge advantage in damage at level 6:

Brand has 1 Q, 3 W, 1 E, 1 R. His full combo deals 806 + 345% AP + 8% max health damage for 300 mana. Ahri has 3 Q, 1 W, 1 E, 1 R. Her full combo deals 514 + 275% AP for 300 mana.

Most skills cost the same mana for the same damage at rank 1.

This isn't even close to true. Even amongst similar skill targeting patterns, with members of the same class:

Syndra Q - 50 + 60% AP for 40 mana Lux E- 60 + 60% AP for 60 mana Orianna W - 70 + 70% AP for 70 mana Cassiopeia Q - 75 + 45% AP for 40 mana Ziggs Q - 75 + 65% AP for 50 mana Karthus Q - 80 + 60% AP for 20 mana Karma Q - 80 + 60% AP for 50 mana Swain W - 80 + 70% AP for 80 mana

Only Play Darius1 votes

Riven Zed Katarina Tryndamere Yasuo

SmokingPuffin2 votes

I don't think Syndra's problem is mana right now. I think the Q nerf was overdone.

I do think the whole "mana matters" idea of the Chalice change was a good one, but Riot has done a terrible job of following up on mana costs and regeneration in the aftermath. No longer having effectively infinite mana has exposed just how big a mana management gap there is between champions of the same type.

darkdill1 votes

Her Q nerf was justified in that she had too much early bully power. But in that sense, the Q nerf did result in her getting less damage per point of mana spent, so it does sorta cause her new mana problems.

kcStranger1 votes

I kinda agree (I think the perfect point is somewhere in between the old and new values), but the problem is it's hard to come up with something compelling that keeps the values all rounded off to 5's. (Why that should be a priority, I don't know, but it does make things look prettier.) Assuming Q damage isn't coming back, I actually think that lowering Q/W mana costs could actually be a big help. Allowing Syndra to spam spells in lane a little more would give her back some bully potential, but require that you hit a high percentage of your skillshots in order to realize that potential. (I.e., it would make more stronger but in a way with more skill requirements and counterplay, which seems to be something Riot likes.)

Zarxis1 votes

The mana regeneration nerfs did hit a little harder than they needed to (the champions most heavily affected by them were fairly balanced), but Riot needs to be careful about buffing base mana regeneration or otherwise helping out the mages you mentioned, OP. I'd like for siege mages to be balanced/a viable option, not the only viable type of mage. Oh, and Xerath does run out of mana fairly easily. His costs are absurdly high (not to say that there aren't other siege mages with excessively high costs), and his passive is very difficult to use against enemy champions (or even minions, later in the game) because of how dangerous it is for him to get close (and it doesn't restore a crazy amount of mana, at least in the early game, when he might not get wrecked upon moving up to use his autoattacks).

McAllister1 votes

The only champ on this list I play is Lux, and I play her support. I seldom have mana problems. I start item 3303 , then go item 1001 >item 3098 >item 2049 >item 3114 in some order, into Morellonomicon, and then I just pretend to be an unusually poor mage Lux. My secret? Don't cast her E unless you really need to. Not having to worry about waveclear and focusing on Q and W make her life happier.

warpenguin5551 votes

ya pls fix them i play 3 of them...

Mouse5341 votes

I have a sneaky suspicion that all mana regen is directly linked to having/receiving blue buff, anyone concur? Since, you know, that blue nerf happened.

Leblancs Boob1 votes

Mana regen is working as intended. The problem is that manaless champions were not not nerfed to even it out. It's a sad day when a Katarina can outpush a Lux just because Lux goes oom after a few rotations. Akali isn't so much a problem anymore but Zed and Katarina running rampant is a problem.

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