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Quinn's ult, unfortunately, isn't very useful

Dragonface··3 votes·1,596 views

Over the past few weeks, through my main and smurf I've been playing Quinn quite a lot. I'm not a high ELO player, by far, as I'm Silver 1 at best. However, I have noticed that for an ult that seems like it's mean to be used to jump into the middle of a team, blind them, and then use your ult again to deal AoE execute damage, it doesn't make much sense to jump in, though, when you're not very durable. In a 1v1 situation, it's a great ult, as it lets you chase very hard, or run away if need be, but it's not really of any use when it comes to team fights.

My thought was this. Right now, when you use Valor, the only thing you really get out of it is you're now melee and your attack speed increases (Due to your W). I was thinking that maybe when she ults and becomes Valor, her passive could change and become what I'd like to call "Fly High", which would do something along the lines of either reduce AoE damage taken by a certain percentage, or increase armor and MR. I'm more partial to it being reducing AoE damage, since the majority of the time when I would die as Valor would be from all the AoE happening in the middle of a group of people who are just duking it out.

The reason I believe this would make it more useful is because it wouldn't detract from the fact that she's an easily focused target, but it would make it so she isn't just instagibbed when she jumps into the middle of a team and uses her AoE abilities.

I think with this change, it'd help to make her picked more, but wouldn't truly change her in a game breaking way.

And for those I know of on here who don't like to read

TL;DR while playing as Valor, take reduced damage from AoE attacks (This is what I'd believe to be the most balanced) or increase the armor and MR to help with surviving in a team fight.

Feedback would be greatly appreciated :)

29 Comments

Togekiss243 votes

However, I have noticed that for an ult that seems like it's mean to be used to jump into the middle of a team, blind them, and then use your ult again to deal AoE execute damage, it doesn't make much sense to jump in, though, when you're not very durable.

I don't think that's even the purpose of the ult. Considering that it does damage based on the champs missing health. It's more like an assassination tool, where you chase after fleeing opponents, Vault, Blind, and Ult to burst them to shreds and get out. I've always considered Quinn to be more like Twitch in that regard.

Of course, that does mean that she's not that good in teamfights overall.

Dragonface1 votes

Yeah but if her ult was solely mean for that purpose, why the AoE execute instead of a targeted one?

Drunk Rummate1 votes

{quoted}

Yeah but if her ult was solely mean for that purpose, why the AoE execute instead of a targeted one?

Riven's ult is an AOE execute too, but she's primarily designed as a duelist.

Fiora's ult is amazing if used in a 1v1, but it still deals tons of AOE damage.

It's better to diversify abilities a bit so that they have multiple uses, albeit situational.

Togekiss241 votes

Easy double kills during tower dives? Heh, I have no idea. That's a good point.

ProfDrDeath1 votes

Because her return from Valor to Quinn, which is the second effect of Skystrike, does not only happen if you cast it manually. That transformation also happens when the time runs out.

Also, with it being AoE, you don't need to keep a lock on a target to use the execute - I once killed a Twitch who managed to stealth with like 100 HP.

Dragonface1 votes

But why not make it so you can use it whenever, targeted, and then if you use it again, you switch back to Quinn? My point being, her ult is almost useless in team fights, being one of just a few champions where her ult is completely situational, where-as most other champs can use their ult almost any time during a team fight and you get decent to amazing results. Kat for instance. Ult early, get the whole team low, ult late, clean up whoever is left over. Naut, ult early to disrupt the team, or ult late to prevent someone from escaping. Vayne, ult early to deal maximum damage, or ult late to pick off people who are trying to run. Quinn's one use to her ult is to duel and chase, other that that, it's a less useful version of Yi's ult, that's it. If it's use in a team fight, you've essentially lowered your survivability and you're forced to revert back to Quinn. Not many champions have that problem, as their second form/mode gives them some sort of change that makes them easier to survive. Jayce is a prime example, cannon mode he has less armor and MR, but he has ranged abilities to make up for it, in hammer mode he has more armor and MR and great chasing capabilities, to make up for the fact you need to get in someone's face. Quinn, has the range to make up for her squishiness, however, Valor gets nothing. He gets to kill faster, that's about it, which in a situation where you're facing an AoE heavy team, you pretty much can't get in close enough to use it. Instead, you have to wait until HOPEFULLY your team picks off most of the enemies, and HOPEFULLY you don't get focused down or assassinated.

ModWulf Helhammer1 votes

really bad idea to jump in and ult with Kat at the start of the team fight, unless you are incredibly fed and can kill anyone in about a second. Otherwise, you get focused and locked down hard.

Drakzul1 votes

{quoted}

But why not make it so you can use it whenever, targeted, and then if you use it again, you switch back to Quinn? My point being, her ult is almost useless in team fights, being one of just a few champions where her ult is completely situational, where-as most other champs can use their ult almost any time during a team fight and you get decent to amazing results. Kat for instance. Ult early, get the whole team low, ult late, clean up whoever is left over. Naut, ult early to disrupt the team, or ult late to prevent someone from escaping. Vayne, ult early to deal maximum damage, or ult late to pick off people who are trying to run. Quinn's one use to her ult is to duel and chase, other that that, it's a less useful version of Yi's ult, that's it. If it's use in a team fight, you've essentially lowered your survivability and you're forced to revert back to Quinn. Not many champions have that problem, as their second form/mode gives them some sort of change that makes them easier to survive. Jayce is a prime example, cannon mode he has less armor and MR, but he has ranged abilities to make up for it, in hammer mode he has more armor and MR and great chasing capabilities, to make up for the fact you need to get in someone's face. Quinn, has the range to make up for her squishiness, however, Valor gets nothing. He gets to kill faster, that's about it, which in a situation where you're facing an AoE heavy team, you pretty much can't get in close enough to use it. Instead, you have to wait until HOPEFULLY your team picks off most of the enemies, and HOPEFULLY you don't get focused down or assassinated.

Stopped reading at "her ult only has one purpose, to duel AND chase" AND in this context means she has two purposes. Out argued yourself there bud.

Drunk Rummate2 votes

Quinns ultimate is incredible. It makes her one of the best duelists and assassins in the game.

Dragonface1 votes

Yes, but one of the most lackluster team fighters in the game.

LostFr0st2 votes

So, first I will start by saying I was introduced to League by my brother, who has played QuinnQuinn for a very long time. Due to this, I have played her both as adc and top myself, and feel that her ult is quite risky for its utility and damage output. After the PAX south discussion on increasing her utility I came up with the following:

The following is rough math so if you don't care for calculations, skip the next section

The problem with Quinn is how her ult damage compares to her ranged form's damage. Making it so her ult becomes progressively worse the more the game goes on.

Lets use an example: -Let's assume Quinn is level 9 -she has a bloodthirster (non crit flat damage item to avoid luck bias; her skills can't crit) -opponent has 54 armor; [Quinn 's at lvl 9 + 9 flat armor seals] (So: 64.935% damage) -rank 5 Q; rank 1 W; rank 2 E, rank 1 R.

-has 179AD (87 bonus AD) Quinn's damage combo: harrier, vault, harrier, blinding assault, auto. [eAA, E, eAA, Q, AA] Damage: 179+159, 92, 179+159, 300, 179 = 1247 with armor reduction: 64.935% ---> 809.74 damage Valor's damage combo: vault, auto, blinding assault, auto, skystrike. [E, AA, Q, AA, R] Damage: 92, 179, 300, 179, (154 to 308) = 904 to 1058 with armor reduction: 64.935% ---> 587 to 687 damage

Damage difference: 222.74 to 122.74 less damage in Valor form

With 300AD Quinn's damage combo: harrier, vault, harrier, blinding assault, auto. [eAA, E, eAA, Q, AA] Damage: 300+211.5, 130, 300+211.5, 425, 300 = 1878 with armor reduction: 64.935% ---> 1219.5 damage Valor's damage combo: vault, auto, blinding assault, auto, skystrike. [E, AA, Q, AA, R] Damage: 130, 300, 425, 300, (206.5 to 413) = 1361.5 to 1568 with armor reduction: 64.935% ---> 884.09 to 1018.18 damage

Damage difference: 335.41 to 201.32 less damage in Valor form

Now let's compare the mid (179AD) and the late (300AD) game Quinn's.
Quinn will do 409.76 extra burst damage and Valor will do 297 to 331 extra burst damage

Now I realize that both Quinns are at level 9, so not exactly realistic

***The point is that Quinn loses her passive when she ults thereby losing a bunch of her damage; she should be able to trigger her passive in Valor form. ***

Proposed Abilities As Valor: -Q-Marks target -W-Heightened senses active mark all champions in range -E-no longer marks targets (cooldown is refreshed upon first ult activation if on cooldown) -R-no change So her new combo would be: R W E eAA Q eAA R

New damage calculations (based on current Quinn damages) at 179AD Quinn damage: 1247 armor reduced to 809.74
Valor Damage: 92, 179+159, 300, 179+159, (154 to 308) ---> 1222 to 1378 damage with armor reduction: 64.935% ---> 793.5 to 894.8 damage at 300AD Quinn damage: 1878 armor reduced to 1219.5 Valor Damage: 130, 300+211.5, 425, 300+211.5, (206.5 to 413) ---> 1784.5 to 1991 damage with armor reduction: 64.935% ---> 1158.8 to 1292.8 damage

TL;DR Quinn will now do basically the same damage as her ranged form, but gain the vision utility she suggests in her identity for setting up teamfights and chasing targets

Anonagon1 votes

While your math is nice and all, to say that Quinn's damage is higher than Valor's is plain wrong. Despite Quinn's burst with just abilities and two harrier procs being higher than Valor's, you don't take into account that Valor is a high-attack speed, crit-based carry, and that with the massive attack speed from Tag Team, betweeen crit and BoRK Valor will nearly always outdamage Quinn in a 1-2 second burst, as well as far outdamaging Quinn in extended trades. Add on top of that the advantages of extreme mobility and reliability that Valor gives.

LostFr0st1 votes

I appreciate your input. The whole reason my calculations used BT was to avoid the crit debate (as stated in the post) and to look at the straight-up damage.
Both Quinn and Valor would crit then, and the addition of the passive damage would still place it in Quinn's favor. The "combos" I used were from a custom game where I checked how many AA could go through in the same time period. I used att sp quints, ad reds, mr blues, and armor yellows. As for the BoRK, only top lane Quinn builds it, and Quinn would get the damage from that just like Valor; same problem I had for crits when choosing which item to build for the post...

P.S. I read your post on 2yr old Quinn; seems like you've put great though into this too. So, may I ask what you think of the W active for scouting as Valor [-W-Heightened senses active mark all champions in range]?

Anonagon1 votes

To be honest, having not done the math myself and always willing to defend Tag Team as an ultimate, I was too quick to dismiss your math. It is likely true that Quinn can do more damage with Harrier>Q>E>Harrier than Valor can do in the same time period. However, I do not believe that reduced damage in a combo really matters when a) Valor will still at most need 2-3 seconds to kill a squishy with just autoattacks, and b) Valor gains other advantages in the form of unparalleled mobility and reliability, as well as having higher extended DPS than Quinn.

For the idea of letting Valor mark targets during Tag Team and letting Skystrike detonate, or just having Valor's W mark, I dislike the idea. For one, whether Skystrike detonates Harrier or not, Valor's power should be in his steroids, not in Skystrike or in switching back to Quinn. Another thing is that Quinn simply cannot get flat buffs or ability changes without first having bugfixes and QoL changes she desperately needs. Anything else would come as a band-aid fix and be a disappointment.

LostFr0st1 votes

No QQ you completely misread my question XD

I meant like TF's ultimate, but not global. In that the whole team gains vision of the opposing team if they were in W range when it was activated for the time that the passive marks are up. This would shift her into the more assassin role that Valor is and allow her to pick off anyone who is caught out; ie utility for starting a teamfight. I wanted a way for her and Val being a "scout" to make a real difference.

I agree that the bugfixes and QoL changes alone would be awsome; vaulted in place twice the other day...

Mayor Stubbs1 votes

Everyone knows this. Her ult sucks aside from running away with it which is why she isn't a "viable" champ

Dragonface1 votes

Then why are people downvoting...?

Mayor Stubbs1 votes

cause they dumb

ModWulf Helhammer1 votes

you obviously have no idea the power that Quinn's ult has. The OP is right, you don't use it in teamfights, and yes it is a very good escape tool, but where it excels the best is in chasing down targets and deleting them from the map.

Mayor Stubbs1 votes

There's a reason Quinn is almost never played in ranked. And it's her ult, sorry if you disagree.

CataclysmCrash1 votes

Her ult is for chase down picks mostly. It also makes her one of the best ganking top laners.

I think my biggest problem with Quin is her design philosophy. Too much armor/not enough hard leather to imply a ranger/"falconer". Really should use more earthy tones.

But the biggest sin is that Riot has made a champ that is a swift hawk without allowing Valor to actually fly. It's the difference between feeling like you're playing a bird or feeling like you're playing an RC car.

There needs to be some way to incorporate some sort of skill where Valor ignores terrain for a few seconds.

Dragonface1 votes

That was what I disliked too. I think what would sound good is one of two things, either make it so that he can see over walls (being the fact he's supposed to have strong eyesight AND he's flying) thus allowing you to chase people who flash over walls better with your gap closer, OR make it so the gap close, while using Valor only, isn't targeted, but instead like Gragas', that way you can jump over walls. I figure if people don't want you to be able to team fight with Valor, which is apparent based on my downvotes, then the least they can do is boost her abilities in another area.

Also, the bird actually flapping it's wings would be nice.

Matezoide1 votes

Play Valor like an assassin.

Per Favore1 votes

Silver player with a smurf. lol

Dragonface1 votes

I mean, it makes perfect sense. I try new champions on my low level account, so I can avoid getting unneeded losses. Then I try them in ranked, and once I know I have the hang of them, I switch to my main account. I don't see how that's funny.

ModWulf Helhammer1 votes

This guy begs to differ on the usefulness of Quinn's ult: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bn8VvSc0F-c] , https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H4SOyvwdHVI] , https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F81Z0vs3c5c]

Meep Man1 votes

{quoted}

Yeah but if her ult was solely mean for that purpose, why the AoE execute instead of a targeted one?

Because a targeted one is impossible to miss. The AoE can be dodged with certain spells and makes it easier to hit if they can't.

Lysdexic11 votes

I used to play Quinn mid quite a bit and i find this statement completely false. Playing as mid it let me do several things: Chase down those mid laners who managed to survive my damage, or be able to run down bot in 5 seconds flat if I see a jungle gank coming and walk away with at the very least one kill.

Cindikle1 votes

It's stronger than it seems. The mobility it has and the passive bonuses are very strong if you can manage to use it in melee.

But, it's not very strong in a teamfight. She's a strong lanner, good early game, poor end game. You have to win by snowballing other lanes with your ulti. Push/kill top. Pop ult and head mid.

I do agree it could use something more. Even if they have to take the damage off it. Which isn't very strong to begin with.

I think the suggestion you gave on reduced AoE damage is good. Then add a Valor bonus in the passive. Perhaps getting a kill reduces her cooldowns by 5s while in Valor form. And/or exiting Valor does the same.

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