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More Aatrox Thoughts

ModCaptainMårvelous··8 votes·5,735 views

A follow-up to my last Aatrox thread. Mostly because I'm still playing (and still enjoying) new Aatrox, but I can see a few more flaws. None of these are to the level people argue (100% REVERT OR BUST) but I do think Aatrox could use a bit of love in a few categories. Again, this is just more thoughts after repeatedly testing Aatrox...when I can play him anyways. For a champion that everyone thinks is garbage, people sure do love playing him, lol.

I made a follow-up sort of to show that I'm still adjusting to it and because I want to catalog my time with Aatrox as well as my changing viewpoints, plus to show that I'm not just abusing the topic-of-the-week.

#1.) Aatrox's Power is Inverted

Aatrox, as far as I've found, is absurdly strong early. 1-6 is probably his best time both in jungle and top lane. Landing Qs will put you quite ahead and he can be hard to trade with once his E starts getting points. However, Aatrox falls off pretty hard post-6 because...well, he has almost no scaling. Perhaps the weirdest part of Aatrox is that his power gains are flat-gains rather than small bases/high scaling. This is doubly weird as he's a juggernaut. So let's take his E for example:

Aatrox gains omnivamp. 20-25% (Was 15-20% before hotfix) Aatrox dashes and gains 15-55 AD for 1.5 seconds.

By comparison, Rhaast's spell-vamp sits at 34.5% to 43%. Yes, Rhaast doesn't have omni-vamp and he accesses his vamp later but that's still a pretty large ratio over Aatrox.

While that's a lot of AD and spellvamp, Aatrox only gains that AD for 1.5 seconds. Because you're using it during your Q, you're likely getting one Q off with that damage and MAYBE an auto if you're lucky. While the cooldown drops per level, 55 AD for 1.5 seconds is pretty small. Most of Aatrox's scaling is in his Q (Going from a respectable 64% per swing to an 80% per swing, which leaves him at a pretty sickening 240 to 300% AD, not counting crit hits), but because of the way his kit works and the innate strengths/weaknesses, Aatrox ends up having to build more tanky.

In addition, Aatrox's ult is a static 20% Total AD bonus. Great at level 6 (albeit a bit hidden), not so much at level 16. Maybe give it some more scaling or have the damage boost amp up? I'd be fine with leaving the Q base as-is but siphoning the ratio to other aspects. Alternatively, cut down the bonus AD Aatrox gets from the dash and make it a permanent effect. I'd much rather have 10-30 bonus AD all the time rather than 15-55 for 1.5 seconds or so.

#2.) W is awesome but a bit too easy to escape.

I like W. W is a cool ability. However, it's pretty easy to escape from. The slow (15-35%) means that it's pretty easy to get out of until max rank. That's not even counting if they have a dash, flash or otherwise. I think giving this ability some sort of additional effect (such as grounded when you're chained or going through small minions) might make it too strong. That said, if it had a static slow or a stronger base, it could be better. (It's also surprisingly strong. 0.4x2 AD Ratio with an OK base on top of CC. Wew.)

#3.) Blah blah Ult blah blah.

Yeah everyone has done the ult to death. It's bad, slow, whatever you wanna say. I actually don't think it's too far off from being good. It just needs some small tweaks. Mainly, I think the cast time should be faster (That 1.5 seconds has killed me quite a bit) and maybe offer some more scaling as you put points into it. The MS is nice but if I'm popping it, I'm likely already/going to be in combat so it's not quite as valuable. Maybe if it expires, you heal for the minimum amount (15%) or maybe you get an additional effect such as...hell if I know. Maybe free E's because you can fly? Increased auto-range? Death bringer CD lowered during ult form? There's quite a bit you can do.

#4.) Q2 still feels weird.

See my last post for more but yeah. Still finding Q2 to be the odd man out.

Those have been my continued thoughts on Aatrox. I'll reiterate that yes, I still enjoy Aatrox. No, I don't think he needs a revert. All that's really holding the kit back is a little bit of polish and maybe some power. I do hope Riot continues working on this because it's so very close to being amazing...also yeah, maybe those cut fighter items would make him better? Hard to say.

11 Comments

Jambajewz5 votes

It's cool that you like the new champion, and your ideas seem well thought out, but the call for a revert is because he's not Aatrox anymore, they removed Aatrox from the game and replaced him with a new champion that took his name and an Aatrox shaped clown suit. The call for a revert isn't about the kit being bad, though his winrate in top is 47th/51 in NA and his winrate in jungle is 39th/39 in NA according to op.gg, it's about the kit in no way resembling what the champion used to be. They took away a champ that people liked, period, that's why people want a revert.

ModCaptainMårvelous5 votes

And I get that but they're not doing a revert. Like, I understand: people liked the old kit and now it's something they don't like. The problem is when all your criticism boils down to "JUST REVERT IT". It's decidedly unhelpful and doesn't accomplish anything. Like I get it, you miss the old champ, but this is the kit that's gonna be around for some time, if not for the rest of league.

Of course, the big ones people bring up are Kog, Rengar and LeBlanc but those were small-time reverts. I don't think he needs a revert because A.) I believe the kit is workable but requires tweaks and B.) if he gets the tweaks and changes he requires, it'll end up being a better kit than what it used to be in terms of balance and design.

It's totally fine to be upset that they took away a champ you liked but if your only critique of the new kit is "I want a revert", that's not really adding much to the convo.

Leverette3 votes

You don't accomplish anything by doing nothing. I imagine if more people were willing to give honest criticism then it might help Riot understand what they did wrong. Saying "JUST REVERT IT" may not be ideal but it's more informative than you give it credit for, plus if nothing else it still racks up the tally of how many people vocally disagree with it. If people want a full-scale revert rather than just tweaks, it does specifically communicate that they believe the whole thing was a complete failure rather than just a few parts of it. "I support the new kit because that's just what it is now" comes off as disingenuous resignation, and it takes all power out of the players' hands. It's understandable that people don't want to see it that way and at least voice that they disapprove.

I recognize Riot spent a lot of money reworking Aatrox and are unlikely to let that effort and expenditure go to waste. But I'm not gonna wallow in defeatist negativity and just say "Well I guess this is my life now" without at least trying to stand up for everyone who can no longer feel their old love for Aatrox. Maybe if Riot had kept in touch with the community throughout the rework and actually let us know what their plans were moving forward and asked for opinions throughout the process instead of getting the job 98% finished on their own and then saying "What do you think, guys!?" they might not have had to face a situation where the finished product was completely outside of the expectations or desires of such a large number of people. All that being said, I think most people acknowledge that his old drain tank/kiteable-as-mess kit needed fixing. Even if we disliked the new kit, had they just kept his character the same, at least we could've stopped playing him but still admired him from afar.

I will ask this though: Are you actually interested in hearing detailed and specific complaints about the rework and actually taking part in such a conversation? I have plenty to say, and I'm not the type to just spare detail. Honestly, one could argue that I suffer from a chronic disability to make my points concisely. I am... long winded. But at least I make my points in an intelligent and all-too-clear manner rather than just giving vague impressions.

Meanwhile as I wait for your response, enjoy this gif of me asserting the uselessness of even a fed Aatrox's kit (he got fed off my Kled who had 800 ping) simply by understanding what its all-too-exploitable weaknesses are:

https://gfycat.com/gifs/detail/NextHappygoluckyDungbeetle

He was utterly at my mercy, and I'm the perfect character for him to counter. My ideal fight range is his ideal fight range. My mobility is nonexistent. My CC is nonexistent. My gimmick is healing, which he counters. Despite this, simply knowing his kit allows me to only get hit by his Q if I specifically allow it to happen as a form of bait to ensure he stays in range of my own empowered Q. The guy couldn't even pressure me enough to set up his Viktor to finish me off.

Jambajewz2 votes

I know that Leverette was quite long winded with that explanation, but I think that the point of about people saying "Just revert it" being helpful is actually valid. It won't solve problems with the way the current kit works, obviously, but it shows a unified outcry from a large portion of the player base and it shouldn't be ignored. They use the reasoning that the players had been asking for a rework for a long time as a major factor in it actually happening, they should listen to the same players when they say they hate it and want it to go away. We literally waited for like 3 years for riot to make Aatrox strong, and then the instant he actually gets to be strong and show how cool he is on a bigger stage like LCS his rework is immediately released and he goes back to being basically the lowest winrate champion in all of league again.

I also want to point out that his interaction with rageblade's passive has always been incredibly strong ever since it was on sated devourer. It's their changes to rageblade that boosted his power to top tier, not his statchecky blah blah blah nature that everyone seems to be crying about. That item is incredibly broken on a handful of champions, and has been plagued with overpowered interactions with various champions all season. Maybe try balancing the item or removing it before removing a champion.

But the fact that he just hit top tier and was played in LCS because of the rageblade changes isn't the point. He has been genuinely strong all season. Not overpowered, but very competent, his passive required skill and decision making to activate, and he had very clear windows of vulnerability. He was genuinely balanced for the first time since like season 4, and they cut his legs out from under him by forcing this rework through. He was literally at the point that everyone had been begging for riot to get him to for years, we were happy, and they promptly slap us in the face and take him away forever.

Darkinknight3 votes

player want revert because:

  • this isn't aatrox. this is new champ called aatrox
  • this aatrox is boring. All kit work around his Q. like riven, but without AA,ult, reset and outplay.
  • this rework don't have sense. without reason now he's a juggernaut; juggernaut with low damage, low base stat, low base damage, low spell vamp,low scaling, horrible R, low steroids and 4 bad CC.
  • he's never strong, feed or not. he's always meh
  • all his kit have biggest counterplay ever. u can counter him with hp, armor, mobility,dash,range,burst,dps,true damage, CC. or just wait when he don't have his Q.
  • long long CD. . really slow
  • really ez to kite ( yes, more than old aatrox)
  • even if it is used correctly, total damage is low anyway
  • his kit isn't consistent
  • briefly he's just bad. it does not do anything better than the others champ
  • old aatrox did everything better. better engage, more damage, more spell vamp, better splitpush, ecc ecc.

probably he can be viable after buff buff and buff, but this kit is still hurt.

this rework gets better only his wings. Yes, aatrox need rework, but certainly not this shit. If they had no idea how to rework it properly, it was worth leaving it as it was

Teridax682 votes

To preface, my thoughts on "just revert" versus "never revert": I agree that the old Aatrox was, overall, very poorly designed. He had the unfortunate combination of having a kit that was largely unoriginal, and uninteresting to most players, yet also really unhealthy and difficult to balance, due to how his sustain worked. If Riot were to design a new champion, they would stay well away from Old Aatrox.

With that said, I do think a revert is justified, for the following reasons: putting aside how Aatrox's VGU made no effort to preserve any real part of his gameplay identity, he is nonetheless showing many of the same problems already. Several of his abilities are almost directly lifted from other kits (and apparently deliberately so, as "juggernaut Riven" was confirmed by a Rioter to be the core intended direction of his new design), he feels unenjoyable to play to a great deal many people, and we're already starting to see some gameplay health problems tied to his sustain, Q and crowd control. If the goal of a rework is to distinctly improve a champion, then Aatrox's VGU has failed. Consensus seems to be that is not more fun to play, or play against, and his balance already looks difficult to broach. Ideally, this should call for another redesign, and ultimately the perfect Aatrox is unlikely to be this version or the old one, but when faced between the choice of the two Aatroxes we have, the former is the one that is currently winning out. Thus, a revert would be warranted, even if it would obviously not solve all of Aatrox's problems forever.

Onto the above: I question the new W, as I think it's actually a pretty poorly designed ability. Everything about it, from the skillshot, to the slow, to the knockback condition, purely punishes low-mobility champions. If you have a dash, literally any part of this ability can be made irrelevant with just a press of a button. If you're not mobile, all of these effects compound together to punish you super-hard, with little that can be done to outplay the effect past the initial projectile. I suspect this will also make the ability hard to balance in the long run, because if the slow's too weak, anyone can just walk out (which seems to be the case now), but if it's too strong, it's an auto-win against immobile champions. On top of this, it's just one more ability on the pile of existing mechanics that affect immobile champions disproportionately harder than mobile ones, which is why I think it also carries a detrimental effect to the game as a whole. In isolation, an anti-immobility effect may be fine, but as it stands League as a game punishes low mobility far too hard already, and this ability in particular I think has far less actual gameplay than all of its components would suggest. By contrast, a point-and-click effect that only displaced and damaged champions if they tried to escape the area could be significantly more interesting, imo, both for Aatrox and his opponent.

Modl Ryden l1 votes

Since you mentioned that it's try that he's flying around in his ultimate, it could be interesting if they allowed Aatrox to move while his ulti is active. To give a little bit of a glide effect.

ModCaptainMårvelous1 votes

Possibly. While apparently letting him move during Q made him obscenely powerful, I'd be fine with it being ult-only (or giving unlimited zero-CD Es).

Wild Geese1 votes

They should consolidate old Aatrox with new Aatrox.

But that may not be for years, or ever.

Anomandarist1 votes

In my humble opinion, I think his ult should be tweaked so that if he is not killed during it than he recovers health equal to a portion of his blood well(Maybe 50% of blood well). Always feels bad when I am at 100 hp it completes its duration than I immediately die in the chaos.

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