My thoughts on Conqueror.

La Bello··8 votes·4,183 views

Fighters have always been designed to counter tanks.

Garen - E armor shred + Missing HP scaling execute Gangplank - passive true damage, E armor ignore Nasus - E armor shred + %max hp damage on R Fiora - %max hp true dmg Renekton - E armor shred Darius -E armor ignoring/true dmg ult Olaf - True damage spam on E Urgot- %max hp damage on W and %HP based execute MonkeyKing- Q armor shred Yorick - Maiden R %max hp damage Trundle - R HEAVY resist shred Kled- W and R %max hp based damage JarvanIV - Armor shred on Q and % HP damage on passive Vi - Armor shred on W+% max hp dmg Camille -extremely high true damage on Q and % damage on R Riven -extremely high DPS during ultimate Irelia -eats shields (including self-shields!) for breakfast and has "fevor" build up drastically increasing her DPS in a sustained fight. sidenote is she can also make great use of BoRK. Yasuo - R gives 50% armor ignore

see because the natural habitat of tanks was toplane Riot made sure to make sure that almost every toplane fighter champion had a method of dealing with them. Now where things went awry is during the tank update where Riot started putting %max hp magic damage on every tank in the game in order to remove "wet noodle fights" from top in ADDITION to their strong tankiness AND additional items like baumi cinder/bramble vest that let tanks become a deceptively strong threat in melee. so whats essentially happened is the prey got stronger but the predators didnt resulting in a ecosystem imbalance. The Gazelle began to eat the Cheetahs! hence a couple seasons forward and Conqueror comes into play attempting to rectify the situation, a quick Stimpack meant to give fighters a surge of viability in the new season ( and hush a certain someone who was creating bad PR on Reddit on a weekly basis).

I think Conqueror introduction was a sloppy hackjob attempt at fixing this imbalance when what fighters TRULY needed was

  1. a pass over on all "tank busting" abilities and passives ensuring that they have what it takes both in lane and out to deal with tanks in a 1v1.
  2. new items BESIDES item 3071 that helps answer tanky opponents. item 3036 and item 3153 are not really viable enough on most fighters and much more suited for glass cannon carries. Perhaps Atmas Reckoning item with a "Madness" effect ala item 3151 (2% more damage per second in combat) was all they really needed to be viable once more?

CHAMPIONS and ITEMS should counter tanks. not RUNES ANYONE can switch up builds to adapt to threats but you literally cannot change runes once game starts meaning if you are playing blind pick Conqeror becomes mandatory because of Schrodinger's cat (or in this case Schrodinger Malphite!)!

Conq is a short sighted band-aid that further kills rune diversity (all fighters need to take it if they're going top less they be handicapped. If they DONT take conq then its as if they've literally received no buffs at all thus Ornn can still dumpster them in lane same as before) and hurts the game overall by warping HOW champions counter each other and HOW you are supposed to counter one another (whats the counter against someone with both Blade of the ruin king AND Conqueror?).

So please Riot. take it upon yourself to dig into the individual champion nitty gritty rather than constantly creating blanket solutions to everything. Conqueror does not need to exist. we just need to update the options that are currently available and add some more itemization.

18 Comments

AirKingNeo2 votes

Except Conqueror is the weakest top lane keystone and most champions who use Conqueror are weak.

All the meta top laners use Grasp or Comet now.

I still think Conqueror should give more AD and less true damage.

Madsin251 votes

Just no..

I feel like I am repeating myself but I will say it once more.

Conqeuror item 3031 Yasuo invalidates every single tank in the game.

1500 true damage in 2 seconds might not sound like a lot because all squishys are blowing up in under 2 seconds.

However when a TANK is exploding in 2 seconds because of it something is not right.

AirKingNeo1 votes

now why the bloodly fuck should Kled, Jax, Irelia, Riven, etc, etc. all be shit because Yasuo is overpowered? Just nerf Yasuo.

Chembaron Yamada2 votes

I really have to wonder what you consider to be shit.

Kleds winrate top: 52% Jax' winrate top: 50%

Both of them use Conqueror as their primary keystone.

AirKingNeo1 votes

and yet aren't competitively viable at all right now?

Chembaron Yamada2 votes

Both of them got played in LCS summer split according to the internet, so don't understand that point either. Besides, I don't measure the strength just by their viability in pro play, there are more layers than that.

AirKingNeo1 votes

wow, I'm glad Jax was nerfed (twice) so he isn't played anymore.

Wow, Kled was picked once as a counterpick to a specific champion. Totally viable, and then he got nerfed.

Chembaron Yamada2 votes

Are you just randomly making up stuff? ô.o Kled got played several times in the 5th week of summer split LCS, which was last week.

There are no nerfs for him on the PBE right now and the last balance changes he got were in Patch 7.24. Sorry, but the data is clearly contradicting your claims here as long as you don't provide any solid evidence. Right now, it looks like you are just making up stuff and hope that people believe it without checking.

AirKingNeo1 votes

https://www.leagueofgraphs.com/champions/stats/kled/lcs

His pickrate, at no point, surpassed 5% last split.

Yes, the data is agreeing with me.

Chembaron Yamada2 votes

Your data is either not correctly updated or it simply just leaves out several other pro play scenes. Yes, Kled just got picked 2 times in EU LCS and 5 times in NA LCS.

However, on Asian servers, he is actually picked way more.

As you can read here, Kled got picked 11 times in LCK this summer, 19 times in LPL, and 16 times in LMS.

Kled is not a popular pick in western lands, but he definitely is way more in the east. Kled definitely is viable in competitive play, stop claiming he isn't.

AirKingNeo1 votes

then why is the pick rate so low

Alex h87211 votes

funny too, both those are higher than yasuo (but Yasuo is the one whose overpowered lul) the anti yasuo circlejerk will always be real.

Death by Glamour1 votes

Several of us pointed this out at the time, that riot should buff darius and garens armour pen instead of the broad stroke buff.

Tanks werent even that strong at the time, of the top of my head sion was doing well and ornn was a pain but still sitting aroud 50% wr.

I still think ot was rushed out because of hashashin or whatever hes called made such a racket on youtube and reddit.

La Bello1 votes

I think it was too.

in my opinion Riot tends to cater towards reddit a LOT. If you want something done or taken care of you need to frontpage it to Reddit.

Incredibly toxic player ruining multiple games at high elo needs banning? unsatisfied with a VGU visual? some bug or glitch being abused?

it all has to hit frontpage to see a redpost and a fix anytime soon. If Reddit says "jump" and Riot says "how high". That entire reasoning is literally what got fighter items removed from the PBE. some guy on Reddit made a "LoL is changing too much" complaint post and it hit the frontpage so Riot decided to icebox them. ScrubNoob didnt get perma'd until the thread about him reached front page. Hashinshin's daily crying literally got him a 1on1 talk with a designer and afterwards as a show of goodwill Riot gathered a bunch of streamers to do a streamer vs riot custom game.

Tetsip1 votes

Ya, for a company with 0 tolerance on people telling others to kys, it sure is effective at getting them to make changes to help you by saying it to them.

Vaylen Obscuras1 votes

Conqueror is really... misguided for several reasons. It was meant to give bruisers a rune - but it really only works best on AS-based bruisers(Like Jax), thanks to being in the AA tree. It only is good and very, very few champions currently, as most have to give up their preferred tree to get it, many do not AA a whole lot, too... Domination or even Sorcery would have been a better fit for it. So the rune did not get the one thing done it was made for: Increase viability of a range of champions.

Instead, it increased the viability of very few champs, while ousting a LOT of champs out of toplane and even the game in general.

First, traditional tanks come to mind(Sej, Mao, Zac, Naut etc. etc.). On toplane, they struggle to survive against conqueror users, while in general, they die too quickly in teamfights(A big part of that is also the heavy dps many champs have past midgame, like ADC or DPS-mages). Secondly, defensively orientated bruisers and juggernauts. Stuff like Yorick or Urgot win their fights by outlasting the enemy and being very, very tanky. Conqueror works way too hard agains them, making them way too little of a threat - those kind of clunky, tanky champs are meant to be "unfightable" by most champs in melee range - as a tradeoff, their CC, Burst and Mobility is very limited.

So conqueror completely failed: It got a few champs viable, at the cost of a whole 1,5 classes. Juggernauts cannot do their jobs in teamfights, as they get melted before they can pile on damage. Also, precision is further reinforced(The best lesser rune selection of all trees, really). The overall meta being so much more damage heavy does them no favours - a fail of the new runesystem in general.

Keystones, especially conqueror, and the whole rune system need a serious balance pass. Until them, keep the anti-tank dmg down a little as a band-aid, please.

La Bello1 votes

what gets me is why the hatred for tanks

there are no runes that were specifically put in to hard counter supports or shielding no "your target heals and shields are decreased by 20%" effect or " target loses 15% of his bonus Attack Damage". no runes meant to hard counter assassins.

but there are TWO RUNES specifically MADE TO SCREW TANKS. its actually so bizarre when you truly think about it. As a company that should seek to keep all manner of classes equally viable and playable why the random hate towards tanks?

https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/leagueoflegends/images/7/77/Cut_Down_rune.png/revision/latest/scale-to-width-down/64?cb=20171004082352

and

https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/leagueoflegends/images/2/20/Conqueror_rune.png/revision/latest/scale-to-width-down/55?cb=20180314225947

is actually ridiculous when you think about it. The sheer amount of answers Riot put into the game specifically to address one class... Conqeror Cleaver item 3071 Lord Dominiks Regards item 3036 Infinity Edge item 3031 Blade of the Ruin King item 3153 Press the Attack Void staff item 3135 Liandriesitem 3151

https://youtu.be/UcZzlPGnKdU

Vaylen Obscuras1 votes

You are not wrong, but... Tankiness is something much more problematic and definitely needs some counters. It is less problematic on traditional tanks(Naut, Zac etc.)... But those are not the only champs that are tanky. Tanky damage threats are especially difficult to deal with(Renekton, Mundo). Additionally, the %Pen items are... badly designed. Riot knows that, but they are necessary for the game currently. "Fixing" them is not easy - maybe they havent found a good solution and ice-boxed it for the time-being.

A big general design problem in LoL is, that there are layers upon layers of stuff, making it hard to really fix... anything. The slate isn't blank, it's chockfull and they cannot get out of the Fix Problem->Create Problem->Fix Problem->Create Problem loop.

In theory, the best idea would be to remove runes and super-simplify items, then look at the balance and try to create a semi-happy state - then add things in step-by-step, try to fix at the same pace... Won't create a perfect game(Once everything is back in), but a MUCH stronger foundation. Currently, League is flawed at its core - and they cannot get out of that. If they'd do what I just proposed, the game would probably die. This season, they tried to introduce a lot more change... and cue the masses crying out "too much change". Their sentiment is understandable, but it inhibits the ability to rebuild the game into a better version of itself.

This may seem like a bit of a tangent, but it comes back to bite champs that rely on their tankiness in the ass. Tanks are a real balance headache - they easily wander between "too hard to kill" and "melt too quickly". What happens when conqueror's anti-tank mechanic gets removed? Tanks become unbearable toplane. Then you need to nerf them/buff others/change system(item, rune)... which very quickly turn tanks too weak. There is a reason why most tanks get pushed into jungle/support instead of solo lanes. You see how this issue loops in on itself.

Lastly, I'd like to say: Your idea of looking at toplaner kits and re-think their anti-tank abilities is a GREAT idea. It won't be easy to realize(lots of work and lots of small reworks would be required), but it is a good point to start balancing toplane tanks and balancing bruiser vs tank in general.

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