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Can we rework Rylais into a healthier AP item? Pitch your ideas!

Malicious Metal··68 votes·6,079 views

Currently Rylais is in a pretty bad spot.

And it's well deserved! In its peak it was built on EVERY mage since it gave 400 HP, 100 AP and a full 35% PASSIVE slow. It made Mages unbelievably tanky while still dealing a ton of damage and being virtually inescapable/untouchable.

It had to be nerfed but by doing so it became a shell of an item only built as a bandaid for certain kits that should've been reworked ages ago.

So, today I'd like to talk a little bit on how to make Rylais a healthier item that can be great on a plethora of champions to fill their needs of becoming durable and having some nice utility to go with it.

So, here's a schemata you can apply to your own idea!:

What's Rylais' power fantasy?: Who should be its intended users?: What stats would you suggest?: What passive/active?: What balance problems might your version of the item have?:

https://i.imgur.com/00bPQLs.png **What's Rylais' power fantasy?: **Freezing scepter that keeps enemies where you want them to be! **Who should be its intended users?: **Battle mages and Ap fighters with maybe supportive mages as well What stats would you suggest?: 400 Hp and 80 AP (Eventually just 60 Ap + 15 Mpen if we'd go for a item 3136 build path) What passive?: Gathering Snowstorm: While in combat you gather stacks of "Blizzard" up to a cap of 300, movement while in combat and damage suffered give you addition stacks What active?: Winter Dreams (Yes, a metal reference, duh!) Discharge all stacks for a ground targeted slow field that deals Frost stacks + 0.2% Ap damage and slows based on your frost stacks/10 times 2 What balance problems might your version of the item have?: The active might be problematic if artillery mages abuse it with poke spells and get a failsafe escape, might have to become exclusive to in combat damage taken/movement

But what are your own ideas? Share your own thoughts on Rylais' here!

142 Comments

Ahristocats39 votes

**What's Rylais' power fantasy?: ** In my opinion, it should be an utility item that sacrifices offensive power Basically i remember Morello stating around season 2 (a season where Rylai was built on like singed+morde+vlad+cass+ap kog) that Rylai would be built on mages if they want to help their team while reducing their damage

**Who should be its intended users?: ** Any AP champion

What stats would you suggest?:

500 hp 80 ap just like in season 2

**What passive/active?: ** same as right now but with a cooldown Basically: 20-8 sec cd (depending on levels) your next spell (any kind of spell) will slow targets by X% for 1 second Dealing damage will reduce the cooldown depending on the spell (like comet) Single target:-15% AOE:-10% Dot:-5%

**What balance problems might your version of the item have?: ** hm don't know

AirKingNeo2 votes

Might be a little too high in stats, specifically in HP.

Ahristocats11 votes

it used to give 500 hp 80 ap and was too weak they changed it to 400 hp 100 ap

500 hp 80 ap isn't op

it used to cost 3000 gold instead of 2600

Orbv3 votes

This would make it useless for Singed who strongly relies on it to stick to people outside of his ult and Ghost.

Velzard of Koz26 votes

One champion shouldn't dictate item philosophy. If it is settled it should be built by champions similar to Singed, so be it, but If there would be new path to take it to, healthier path, Singed shouldn't be in way. Especially since Singed could dictate several items because his playstyle is so "unique".

RainbowIcee4 votes

It will affect more than just singed. Mordekaiser CassiopeiaAurelionSol these champions rely on the constant slow quite often depending on how you build. This will cause more end time problem in the game item 3116 isn't an active issue in the game and changing the item to just benefit some champions but at the same time gutting others is not worth it and causes more harm than good. Champions that build item 3116 is not because of the stats, it's because of the slow to catch up to their targets because they don't have a build in strong CC or gap closer. Taking that away in favor of let's say Ahri should get some use of it it's quite messed up. Is it a kit problem? ofcourse it is! but they haven't fixed that so why take away one of their most helpful option? that won't make the game healthier, just make it harder for them. Except Vladimir he'd receive too much benefit from a stat buff.

Ahristocats8 votes

that would be right if those champions cannot work without Rylai

http://euw.op.gg/summoner/userName=malicious+metal mordekaiser can work without Rylai

http://euw.op.gg/summoner/userName=i+like+dragon aurelion Sol can work without Rylai

And cass almost never build Rylai right now

DeusVult15 votes

As a singed player, having Rylais not work as well with his Q poison trail would actually be a great thing for counterplay to him. ATM, he can currently escape most champs, and wins a trade by them following him. But once he gets Rylais, he has the raw stats from rylais and ult to run at someone, flip them, and then just run around them until they die. Between the Q slow, E reposition and Huge W slow, you can kill most people before they can get out of lane.

I love singed, but playing against him once he gets Rylais is a terrible experience

Birdie Sànders4 votes

This. Also, if dealing dmg reduces it's CD, it wouldn't even be that bad

Fairyfleur4 votes

I really like this version of the slow as long as it stays healthy.

I really loved building it on Taliyah, AurelionSol, Zyra, but now it just feels bad.

Sun Wu Ryuumoku5 votes

In my opinion, it should be an utility item that sacrifices offensive power

Hell YEAH.

Who should be its intended users?: Any AP champion

Yeah

What stats would you suggest?: 500 hp 80 ap just like in season 2

What ??? High hp and relativly high ap.

Ahristocats4 votes

i'm going to go in deep explination rn

80 ap on an item that brings NOTHING offensively is not overpowered Liandry gives 80 ap 15 mr pen and has %hp damage on passive luden has 100 ap and passive burst damage morello has 100 ap void staff has 80 ap and 40% mr pen

Rylai was never built when it used to cost 3000 gold while giving 80 ap the champions who built it were champions that cared too much about the slow (listed above) Champions like orianna and syndra never built it because they dealt no damage afterwards unlike during Rylai meta because Rylai gave 100 ap

Sun Wu Ryuumoku2 votes

Hum... maybe its cause im not an Ap main...

in the end, what's really matter is the cost efficiency.

Vyr Thirku3 votes

This would make mages like Malzahar, Brand, and Cass actually in line with their power curve.

Ho1d This Q4 votes

if u were to give it a cooldown you would have to drastically increase how much it slows. like 50 -70%

Z3Sleeper29 votes

I got it!

I call it, Hextech GLP-800!!! item 3030

Doozku12 votes

Hextech Who?

Velzard of Koz5 votes

TARDIS intensifies

AmazoX21 votes

I just want to say why don't we have THAT picture as Rylai's icon? #ITS WAY BETTER

Sire Hippington14 votes

**What's Rylais' power fantasy?: ** A defensive AP item that focuses on utillity over raw damage

Who should be its intended users?: AP bruisers and Mages, actually anyone that doesn't mind some AP and wants more utillity/stickiness

What stats would you suggest?: item 1058 item 3067 item 1028 +750g(3200g total) 75AP 500HP 10%CDR

What passive?: Winters grasp: Dealing spelldamage to an enemy champion Slows by 25% for 2 sec, 8-5sec CD per target scaleing with level.

**What active?: ** Rylai's wreath: Conjur a frost nova from yourself, hitting all opponents in a 650 aoe, dealing 15-100+0.2AP damage , slowing them by 30% for 2 sec and grounding them. 90 sec CD

What balance problems might your version of the item have?: The unconditional slow might cause issues as setup for some combos, like brand easily landing his stun or Victor automatically landing the second part of his E like pre nerf rylais did. The Active's groundet might be to strong vs some champs, fizz woukd have a hard time dealing with some rylais users, champs like Ez might become freefood for someone like diana.

The steam life1 votes

Pls no more cdr I can’t.. not again I’m not strong enough

Sire Hippington1 votes

With runes rework, alot CDR has gone from the system(10% cdr after 10 min for which you have to go sorccery and give up celerity compared to up to 30% at 18...) while many of the potential Rylais users are not neccesarily Morellos users, and without morello, CDR actually isn't as common as one might think for AP, and going CDR boots really comes at a price with sorc boots giveing a whooping 18 flatpen while MR overall is on a all time low. It also adds to the utillity character of the item opposed to raw damage.

The steam life1 votes

Its still really common. I always overcap as an assasin and I almost always hit it as a mage. Adc's can build essence and tanks can get some too. Black cleaver also makes it easy to over cap.

Aaravos8 votes

It supposed to be a situational utility item, what is avaible for every mages, if they are ready to give up some damage for the extra defense and teamfight utility it provides.

The problem with pre-nerf Rylais was the 100 ap. 100 ap on a defensive item? it outclassed al of it's competitors. However right now Rylai is just another cheap and trash item among a bunch of cheap and trash ap items.

The item is fine, they just need to fix the stats. Something like 70ap, 500hp, old price, pre-nerf passive. I think it would be fine.

Magic pen is a bad idea. Flat pen shouldn't be on a defensive focused item.

The Yetii Rider6 votes

What is Rylai's power fantasy - An item that is purely about the passive, an item that keeps champions stuck while you blast them with your rotation.

Who should build Rylais - Any champion that is concerned with crowd control. The item should not be bonus CC you can stick onto any kit, but instead should be something that you choose to opt into. The passive should be extremely powerful to justify the slot.

What stats would you suggest? 400 HP, 10% CDR (0 AP) Build Path - Kindlegem + Ruby Crystal + 1800 gold (Total - 3000 gold) Passive - Crystal Embrace - Hitting an enemy champion with an ability causes that champion to freeze slowly. They gain a stack of Crystal Embrace, then take crowd control based on the number of stacks applied. The same ability cannot add additional stacks, but refreshes the stack it already applied (so Cassiopeia 's Twin Fangs would keep one stack up for ages, but no more)-

1 Stack - 20% Slow for 1.5 seconds 2 Stacks - 40% Slow for 1.5 seconds 3 Stacks - 60% Slow and Grounded for 1.5 seconds 4 Stacks - Stun for 1.5 seconds, consume all stacks, stacks cannot be applied again on the same target for 6 seconds.

Mages want item diversity? Here you go. This is actual diversity. You are getting something different. You are sacrificing offensive power completely to get a different kind of offensive power, one that is pure utility and can really set you up for some devastating plays if you are good. That is what you should be asking for when you talk about item diversity, not just different 100 AP items with slightly different passives and actives.

LordForrest2 votes

Well admittedly I want an AP bruiser item with health, some ap (not a ton), and a good slow, I actually like this idea. Its different and has a clear choice of when it is a good choice and when its not, instead of being a why not choice. It also has some skill expression inherent to it which is nice.

ModKnightsKemplar4 votes

I'm not sure I see how you stop that from being oppressive on tanks and useless on Mages.

The problem is that when you give pure utility items like this, then the mage isn't the person who is going to buy that; a support or tank will buy it to hold someone in place while the pure AP mage bursts them. Imagine Alistar or Leona going in with this kind of item and then landing their combo. Gonna be several seconds of cc, and the mage doesn't have to build it to benefit from that.

Votable Jester2 votes

Giving Leona an extra stun :O

It would be great for her actually because her W would be the most likely thing to proc the stun too, at the end of her whole combo.

HellShackled6 votes

1000hp 120 ap and 90% slow. 8500 gold. OP

Vipertooth5 votes

Just buy 6 of those and you're set, :P

kasfas4 votes

I think the item should be the core item for champions who want to keep someone fighting them.

A kind of ap Cleaver except without the shred.

So with that in mind: Stats- 400 hp 60 ap Passive: Damaging an enemy champion with an ability steals heat from them, slowing them by 5% and speeding you up by half of that amount. This effect stacks up to 6 times, its speed is tripled for melee champions, and can only be procced once by one spell type every 2 seconds. (Meaning dots and low cooldown spells have an internal cooldown of 2 seconds)

This should allow champions like vlad and swain to function with the item decently, improve cases such as mordekaiser, and reduce the usefulness of champions who currently keep the item weak like brand and zyra. Cassiopeia also stands to benefit from this, but that should be remedied by the end restriction allowing her only three stacks from her poison, q and e every 2 seconds.

Selegun3 votes

Hmm, a bit more HP would be nice if we could trade off around half of its AP. I can also see giving it some CDR too.

If you are looking for an active effect we could remove the passive slow for it. Something along the lines of 'Empower your next spell to create a small zone at the target. After a duration the zone will snap freeze and root enemies caught within. I would imagine a minute or so cool down would be needed as well.

JoeMG3 votes

I could see it as either an AP item 3022 with more HP but less AP and have a more significant slow, or they could make it more offensive and have something like that one rune (whatever it's called. I've used it, like once.) where every 20 seconds or after 100 charges from moving, your next ability slows for like 40-50%.

ModKnightsKemplar3 votes

Power Fantasy: An item that helps sustained damage dealers (like Battle Mages) keep targets in range Stats: 300 HP, 100 AP Passive: Damage over time spells slow targets by 20-50% (scales with level) in addition to their other effects

Basically, I think the idea of the item is okay. The only problem with it is that it's too generalized. By keeping the passive limited to certain kinds of spells, we've made this item non-meta on burst mages and artillery mages. That's really important. (I assume MM won't like this version because the slow will only proc with Morde's ult. But he can proc it).

Balance Issues: Still might be somewhat feast or famine on Battle Mages. If they get this item early, it could help them snowball at an unreasonable speed. I think making the slow scale with level would help with this somewhat, but may not eliminate the problem.

Votable Jester7 votes

If you wanted to break Malzahar, you could have just said so. [sg-miss-fortune]

Mämbä3 votes

I have a suggestion, make item 3116 the mage version of item 3142 . And by that I mean, make it an active effect, but increase the strength of the slow effect. This would make it more strategic for mages to really secure a kill or use it to kite away from danger in specific circumstances. I've also felt like Rylai's giving health makes no sense thematically (since your post mentioned what it's theme should be). I would suggest perhaps replacing hp with a passive that grants an "adaptive" shield.

You could make it something like this:

Rylai's crystal scepter

Builds from: item 1026 (850g) + item 1026 (850g) + 900g = 2600g (price unchanged)

Frost Shield (Unique Passive): After being hit by an ability that deals 40% or more of your hp as damage, receive and adaptive shield for 15% of your hp + 10 per level (180 at level 18). The shield blocks the type of damage previously dealt for 4 secs. Cooldown 30 seconds.

Coming Winter (Active): For 6 seconds after activation, all abilities you use slow targets by 30% for 2 seconds.

Vipertooth4 votes

Funny how you wanted to make a mage version of item 3142 and yet you made a mage version of item 3053 .

Teridax683 votes

I think one of the core problems with Rylai's is that it serves two different groups of champions, and so has two different power fantasies: on one hand, it caters to AP fighters who want to close the distance between themselves and their targets, but on the other it also caters to kite mages, who want to create more distance instead. One subset of champions really needs durability to survive, the other isn't trying to get hit in the first place. Because of this, I think the item needs to be split in two, so that both types of AP users here can have an item tailored to them, without having to strike some kind of in-between compromise that harms both. Here are some ideas of what I think could work for either:

#AP fighter item:

  • Recipe: Amplifying Tome + Giant's Belt + Hextech Revolver + 115g (total of 2600g)
  • Stats: +60 AP, +400 Health (total of +20 Health from components)
  • Active: Target an enemy champion within 700 units, initiating a 1.5-second delay. At the end of the delay, they take 50-125 (+ 20% AP) (+ 5% bonus health) magic damage. If the wielder is melee, the target is also rooted for 1 second. 40-second cooldown, shared with other Hextech items.
  • The main goal of this kind of item is to concentrate Rylai's crowd control into a much shorter, and potentially more impactful moment, so that there is a definite, telegraphed window of time where an AP fighter wants to go in, and have more reliable target access. I figured a Hextech item might be most appropriate, in part because the Revolver effect is good in lane for trading, but also because most Hextech items aren't the best fit for AP champions in general, bar some exceptions. The delay/targeted root is there to offer a different kind of reliability: the active is intended to be effective on back liners, so a typical skillshot wouldn't be appropriate, but the delay instead gives the user's opponent a warning, and time to create some distance, maybe blow a gapcloser, before the root hits.
  • Potential concerns with this item are the root (no item yet has hard CC) and the health scaling on the damage (might be unnecessary for an item focused on crowd control): there is a risk that the above item might be too attractive to tanks, in which case I'd take the health scaling out, and perhaps gate the root duration behind AP in some way as well. Because this is a Hextech item, it might potentially cause conflict with Mordekaiser, who currently frequently builds Gunblade.

#Kite mage item:

  • Recipe: Aether Wisp + Blasting Wand + Fiendish Codex + 400g (total of 3000g)
  • Stats: +100 AP, +10% CDR, +5% bonus movement speed (no additional stats gained)
  • Unique passive: Upon damaging an enemy champion or large monster with a single-target ability, gain 20% increased movement speed when moving away from them for the next second. Has a 2-second cooldown on activation.
  • The goal of this item, whose stats differ much more heavily from Rylai's, is to give a kiting option for mages that doesn't revolve around crowd control or durability. The main intended beneficiaries of this item are meant to be Ahri, Aurelion Sol, Cassiopeia, Karma, and a few others, and the effect is restricted to single-target spells because kiting champions tend to have more single-target damage compared to most others. Ideally, this should give these champions a strong, damage-heavy kiting option, while also establishing a clearer contrast between success and failure cases: a mage who uses this item successfully should be taking a lot less damage because they'd be able to get out of range of their targets more often, but if they do get caught, they should be easier to kill than if they had taken the current Rylai's.
  • Potential concerns with this item are its stats (100 AP and CDR is a combination only found on Morellonomicon, arguably a fairly overloaded item in its own right) and the uptime on the effect. I'm particularly afraid of how this could get abused by Ryze, who has near-perfect uptime on his single-target spells, and who gets very annoying when he can kite too hard. Additionally, this kind of effect works on LeBlanc, which could push her even further into kite mage territory when that's a direction many of her fans dislike.

A larger concern I have with these suggestions is that they break the Rylai's + Liandry's synergy, which has been a staple on many AP DPS champions for quite some time. At the same time, though, I feel that combo kind of forces one item to be picked alongside the other, and Liandry's in itself is a pretty unsatisfying item that needs a rework, for a whole bunch of reasons (it fits an awkward niche through contradictory stats, serves as a staple on AP DPS when it's meant to be a niche item, and railroads Haunting Guise buyers into an item whose passive they wouldn't normally want). Because of this, it might be better to deliberately end that synergy and flesh out both items individually. What do y'all think?

TheySeeMeWardin3 votes

Idk why, but I really think mages should have their own versions of kercheis shard (since athene’s is mostly a support item) where you build up this charge by doing something, whether it be dealing damage, moving, etc., and once that charge is completed your next spell deals a significant slow. However, this isn’t the best for champs who reapply the slow multiple times like Karthus, Aurelion Sol, and Zyra. Another version could potentially be making rylais an active item where activating the item makes your spells for the next few seconds slow enemies significantly. The slow can’t be abused constantly by poke mages in this version (which is one of old rylais’s original problems) but also sounds like a nightmare to balance.

TLDR; mages don’t have a lot of charging items or active items and rylais might be able to fix that.

Illâoi Evê Siôn3 votes

I like Rylai's the way it is. It should probably get 5 more Ability Power, though.

Vanic9983 votes

How about giving it a unique passive that allows slows to stack?

Vipertooth2 votes

{quoted}

Passive: Damaging an enemy champion with an ability steals heat from them, slowing them by 5% and speeding you up by half of that amount. This effect stacks up to 6 times, its speed is tripled for melee champions, and can only be procced once by one spell type every 2 seconds. (Meaning dots and low cooldown spells have an internal cooldown of 2 seconds)

I feel like kasfas here made a very good example of what this item should really be.

SwiftKitten883 votes

revert it to its last state in 6.23, add a 5 second internal cooldown per target..

done... honestly riot this was simple as fuck...

PopcornBunni4 votes

{quoted}

revert it to its last state in 6.23, add a 5 second internal cooldown per target..

done... honestly riot this was simple as fuck...

I'd be down for something like this in conjunction with shifting its power from AP to Health while giving it a better build path. It's always been best as a battlemage and AP tank/juggernaut item, so it's be nice to see it tuned for them.

item 3116 = item 1058 +item 1011 + 450g (2700g) +65 AP +475 Health Unique passive -- Icy: Damaging abilities and pet attacks Slow affected units.

Single target spells: 35% slow for 1.5 seconds Area of Effect: 30% slow for 1 second Damage over Time: 17.5% slow for 0.5 seconds

Unique passive: Slows from your champion are 15% stronger. This effect can not increase slows beyond 99%.

Mordepool2 votes

Rylais permanent slow needed nerfs Meanwhile Ashe

Fairyfleur5 votes

Rylai's was accessible to any mage who wanted it along with the fact that it could be applied from much higher range, while Ashe's damage is balanced around her slow; what is your point?

PreeminentSoul1 votes

What's Rylais' power fantasy?:Dont Really have a power fantasy right now i might think of one up if someone asks Who should be its intended users?:AP Champs What stats would you suggest?: Ap:+80 Health:+250 Cooldown: +10% What passive/active?: Passive:+5 Mana For Each Minion killed Stacks up to 30 Passive:Whenever you deal damage with a single target attack or spell, you gain 12-15%(Based on level) of mana spent to damage the target What balance problems might your version of the item have?:Well im not sure if the item might be overtuned or needs tuning havent really thought of it yet this is just a rough thought on the spot sketch

PreeminentSoul3 votes

So this change might effect those who needs slows AurelionSol Cassiopeia Singed for instance so what about either Same passive or Active:Once Active This will apply 20% Slow for Aoe Damage type Spells and a 25-30% slow for Single Targets

Asura Gonza1 votes

What's Rylais' power fantasy?: A CC Item

Who should be its intended users?: Anyone who wants to slow its target

What stats would you suggest?: same as it is right now but a little cheaper. 100 gold or so.

What passive/active?: No actives. Passive: AP attacks slow the intended target by 20%. If the target is hit by subsequent spell hits from the rilay user during the 20% slow...it will stack more slows until it peaks at 40%. 3% extra slow per spell hit. Damage over time spells (morgs soil, singed poison) will instead stack 3% slow every second, also capping at 40%.

What balance problems might your version of the item have?: None.

crzymdscntst2 votes

Balance problems peak with the difference between rapid-fire skills and single-cast, long cooldown skills.

Champions who need to keep you in range will likely want to have the stronger slow to keep you there while their cooldowns are in effect, while the champions with rapid-fire skills often are about hitting fast and a lot, stacking quicker.

The disparity created by this was never "fixed" by Rylai's last rework.

Take Zyra, each plant counts as a single spellcast for effects like this, not DoT. Lighting up a target with 4 plants layers an immediate 29%, then capping at 40% on their second shot. For Zyra, she's about CC and zone control already and this layers her power in a very strong way.

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