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Rework Shen as a bodyguard tank?

Done25··4 votes·1,309 views

Meddler recently replied on how Shen is a bit of a failure theme wise. He has the appearance of a sneaky ninja, but he's a TANK. As in "attract the attention of the enemy".

I think he would be better off being tweaked into more of a single person bodyguard style protector. Possibly as a high HP single target AD fighter. crowd gasps

Here are the problem that I'm seeing with his kit: [EDITED WITH NEW INFO]

Passive - Fine as is.

Q - Fine as it, just change the scaling to something like 130% of Total AD to help reinforce his role as a Fighter. Letting him scale with AD makes him more of a single target threat, and causes the enemy assassin to think twice about jumping in and trying to kill a squish while Shen is there. Maybe shave off 33~66% of the healing duration to make Shen continually attack to keep up his healing and make his sustain less obnoxious in lane. (Ex. Shen heals for 7+0.5% max HP over 1 second, instead of 22+1.5% over 3.)

W - Awful. It's a shield that punishes your dps/energy gain when it breaks. In order to get the most out of Shen you actually WANT them to not target you so you can get off more Ki Strikes. Which is silly. Remove the Ki Strike part and give it Shadow Dash's "Take half damage from Auto Attacks." to reward Shen for using it against people like Fiora or Vayne. (You know, like he's Feinting their attacks. :P) This also makes it less obnoxious against AP mages like Annie or Viktor. Changing the AP scaling to HP scaling would also be more rewarding as a Fighter.

E - Reduced to 80 energy. Landing a shadow dash restores 20 energy and reduces Ki Strike's remaining cooldown by 50%

R - "Shen creates a shield on target ally for 5 seconds. While the shield holds Shen can teleport to the allies position with it taking longer the farther away they are." Here's the real meat of the tweak. The ability is separated into two parts. First Shen creates a shield on his target, after which he can then warp to them if he wants to. The further away they are, the longer it takes to teleport. This reduces the power of cross map ganks, while making it more responsive in team fights. I'm thinking a minimum of 1 second channel, with a max of 5 for top to bottom lane distance.

What do you guys think?

33 Comments

Leti the Yeti2 votes

when i started league some months ago "wtf shen is a tank?"

I like Shen's ult's shield thing It's like a counter to Zed's ult... cuz lore shit makes it more kickass

Done251 votes

{quoted}

when i started league some months ago "wtf shen is a tank?"

I like Shen's ult's shield thing It's like a counter to Zed's ult... cuz lore shit makes it more kickass

Yea, he's a bit of a failure as a tank. I really think he fits the Fighter playstyle a lot better. (Single target long term DPS)

DJ Siamak2 votes

What if they gave hims Lee Sin's W but only usable on champions.

Done252 votes

[{quoted}](name=DJ Siamak,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=l99jPGFj,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2015-01-03T00:22:18.024+0000)

What if they gave hims Lee Sin's W but only usable on champions.

That's basically what I said to change his R to, but with a longer range and a MUCH stronger single target shield.

DJ Siamak2 votes

{quoted}

That's basically what I said to change his R to, but with a longer range and a MUCH stronger single target shield.

His ult should maintain the channel.

Done251 votes

[{quoted}](name=DJ Siamak,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=l99jPGFj,comment-id=000100000000,timestamp=2015-01-03T00:33:25.075+0000)

His ult should maintain the channel.

What's your reasoning for this? I would argue that by removing the channel in exchange for the global range allows two things.

  1. Prevents obnoxious cross map saves that can't be countered since you can't stun him while he's chilling in the fountain.
  2. Makes his ult more responsive in team fights, thus creating a more immediate and powerful reward (on Shen's side) for hitting R.
DJ Siamak2 votes

{quoted}

What's your reasoning for this? I would argue that by removing the channel in exchange for the global range allows two things.

  1. Prevents obnoxious cross map saves that can't be countered since you can't stun him while he's chilling in the fountain.
  2. Makes his ult more responsive in team fights, thus creating a more immediate and powerful reward (on Shen's side) for hitting R.

It allows counterplay and the large range should honestly stay.

His ult doesn't need any changes, it's his energy costs that currently make him underwhelming.

Done251 votes

[{quoted}](name=DJ Siamak,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=l99jPGFj,comment-id=00010000000000000000,timestamp=2015-01-03T01:08:31.963+0000)

It allows counterplay and the large range should honestly stay.

His ult doesn't need any changes, it's his energy costs that currently make him underwhelming.

How do you counterplay a Shen on the literal other side of the map?

DJ Siamak2 votes

{quoted}

How do you counterplay a Shen on the literal other side of the map?

The ability itself lends itself to more counterplay since your options to stop a Shen channeling his ult is something more than nothing.

I'm not quite sure what sort of thematic element his ult would have if it wasn't global since the idea of him being able to help you from anywhere on the map is a cool dedicated bodyguard theme

Done252 votes

[{quoted}](name=DJ Siamak,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=l99jPGFj,comment-id=0001000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2015-01-03T02:02:48.529+0000)

The ability itself lends itself to more counterplay since your options to stop a Shen channeling his ult is something more than nothing.

I'm not quite sure what sort of thematic element his ult would have if it wasn't global since the idea of him being able to help you from anywhere on the map is a cool dedicated bodyguard theme

I would say you're not much of a body guard if you're chilling at top while Vayne is farming bot all alone. :P

DJ Siamak3 votes

{quoted}

I would say you're not much of a body guard if you're chilling at top while Vayne is farming bot all alone. :P

Your bodyguard is so dedicated he will always find you.

Sightless662 votes

You don't overcommit to a fight that you know Shen can show up to, and you get the fuck out when you see the channel. How do you counterplay an instant teleport into taunt if it has a long enough range that you can't see it coming?

Sightless662 votes

Quite a few complaints.

Not everything needs to scale off of hp. He can be functional without a bunch of hp scaling added. Not every ability needs to be increased by the tank stat, particularly if you're also adding AD scaling to make him a more potent damage threat.

The shield having the Ki-strike reduction is to get the enemy team to focus you, because you'll do a lot of damage if they don't. It's similar to how Nautilus has his damage tied into his W shield. Just taking it off makes it an even more substandard ability, even with HP scaling. The only way this would work is if you shifted Shen towards being more of a bruiser by lowering his team utility and buffing his damage.

make it instantaneous,

Way, way, way too strong. Unless this is like 500 range, this is too powerful. Being able to instantly port somewhere into a taunt is far too strong. What kind of range are you thinking about that could possibly make this acceptable? Also, it already shields for a huge amount. More HP scaling is not necessary. Shen's reward for being durable is being durable so he can be a threat, not so that his big supportive ability can get stronger.

Some of these ideas could work by themselves. Some couldn't (no instant ult). As a package, it's just far too much.

Done251 votes

{quoted}

Quite a few complaints.

Not everything needs to scale off of hp. He can be functional without a bunch of hp scaling added. Not every ability needs to be increased by the tank stat, particularly if you're also adding AD scaling to make him a more potent damage threat.

I wanted to give him scaling, but I didn't want to give him a lot of AD scaling. The HP scaling is there to help reward him for building items like Frozen Mallet and Warmogs. THe numbers I put out were probably too high.

The shield having the Ki-strike reduction is to get the enemy team to focus you, because you'll do a lot of damage if they don't. It's similar to how Nautilus has his damage tied into his W shield.

Here is the problem with that though: Shen is ahead: You can't break his shield in a 1v1 and he gets off lots of Ki strikes. Shen is behind: His shield is popped instantly and his damage/energy suffers as a result.

Way, way, way too strong. Unless this is like 500 range, this is too powerful. Being able to instantly port somewhere into a taunt is far too strong. What kind of range are you thinking about that could possibly make this acceptable? Also, it already shields for a huge amount. More HP scaling is not necessary. Shen's reward for being durable is being durable so he can be a threat, not so that his big supportive ability can get stronger.

I'm thinking 500/750/1000 range as he ranks it up. I actually think he gives out TOO MUCH shield atm. It creates TWO 850 (+ 135% AP) shields at rank three. Cho'Gath's R deals 650 (+ 70% AP) true damage.

Some of these ideas could work by themselves. Some couldn't (no instant ult). As a package, it's just far too much.

I was imagining the instant ult for clutch save situations. It's the end of a fight and your carry has 200 HP left as Rengar leaps out at them from the bushes.

And Riot doesn't have to use the whole package. I'm no professional game designer. :P I just feel like Shen is in a bit of an awkward spot atm.

Sightless662 votes

Fair point regarding the Ki strike. It does work that way, although I'm not convinced it's actually a massive problem. I think increasing the shield durability or the reward for hits is a better way to handle it, but your way probably has more credit than I give it.

HP ratios to reward him aren't a bad idea, but too many just gets really silly really quick. It gets too the point where he can get one health item and become an unkillable threat when ahead.

I kind where your idea for the ult is coming from, but I have still have some problems with it. First, it would still be used heavily as an initiation tool or a ganking tool. An instant teleport into that strong of a CC is really hard to deal with, and could easily be a ridiculous ganking or initation tool. I get the idea of the clutch play you're going for, but I don't think it would be the main way the ability would be used. Another problem is that right now, the shield itself is actually useful as a very powerful in-fight tool, which can work even if Shen isn't around or doesn't have his taunt up. Restructuring it to be only majorly useful as a range booster to the taunt will lower a lot of his saving potential.

I'm not trying to just shoot your ideas down (although I know it does look like that a bit, which I suppose I should apologize for). They aren't bad ideas, but they would need more polish to really work the way I think you want them to.

Done251 votes

{quoted}

Fair point regarding the Ki strike. It does work that way, although I'm not convinced it's actually a massive problem. I think increasing the shield durability or the reward for hits is a better way to handle it, but your way probably has more credit than I give it.

HP ratios to reward him aren't a bad idea, but too many just gets really silly really quick. It gets too the point where he can get one health item and become an unkillable threat when ahead.

I kind where your idea for the ult is coming from, but I have still have some problems with it. First, it would still be used heavily as an initiation tool or a ganking tool. An instant teleport into that strong of a CC is really hard to deal with, and could easily be a ridiculous ganking or initation tool. I get the idea of the clutch play you're going for, but I don't think it would be the main way the ability would be used. Another problem is that right now, the shield itself is actually useful as a very powerful in-fight tool, which can work even if Shen isn't around or doesn't have his taunt up. Restructuring it to be only majorly useful as a range booster to the taunt will lower a lot of his saving potential.

I'm not trying to just shoot your ideas down (although I know it does look like that a bit, which I suppose I should apologize for). They aren't bad ideas, but they would need more polish to really work the way I think you want them to.

Oh no, it's entirely fine. ^_^ Feel free to debate as much as you want! If I was scared of backlash I'd never post anything. Two counterpoints: Health sucks atm and building pure HP is a good way to get critted to death by the BotRK Vayne. So I'd not be too worried about the Shen who rushes Frozen Mallet + Warmogs over Thornmail or Hex Drinker.

Perhaps instead of removing the channel entirely, why not reduce it to one/two second(s) instead? That way it wont be instantaneous, but it still manages to reward fast reactions.

(Also, upvotes so we get more comments/debate in here is a great way to show support!)

Nakawaka2 votes

Suppose Shen's channel is longer based on his distance, close to instantaneous if he's relatively close to his target and the usual channel time if he's across the map from his ally.

The target gains a good shield (less than before) and additional shield per second based on channel time. If Shen's channel is interrupted, the target will receive less SPS (Shield per second).

The assassin will have to gamble whether or not he can burst fast enough, outplay the taunt or aware of Shen's CD or build a QSS/cleanse.

However Shen needs to decide how much the team needs his proximity instead of split push and the target has to pull some of the slack to make the best out of a DPS shield as opposed to burst-protection. If you want to make a fighter than naturally he is not as tanky as before so this has to be taken in consideration before Shen tries to instant-ult-taunt-4-win.

Done251 votes

{quoted}

Suppose Shen's channel is longer based on his distance, close to instantaneous if he's relatively close to his target and the usual channel time if he's across the map from his ally.

The target gains a good shield (less than before) and additional shield per second based on channel time. If Shen's channel is interrupted, the target will receive less SPS (Shield per second).

The assassin will have to gamble whether or not he can burst fast enough, outplay the taunt or aware of Shen's CD or build a QSS/cleanse.

However Shen needs to decide how much the team needs his proximity instead of split push and the target has to pull some of the slack to make the best out of a DPS shield as opposed to burst-protection. If you want to make a fighter than naturally he is not as tanky as before so this has to be taken in consideration before Shen tries to instant-ult-taunt-4-win.

Hmmm. I wouldn't mind his ultimate taking longer based in the distance. Perhaps something like Rek'Sai's where he will quickly, but not instantly, fly towards target ally's position. Like a global Lee Safe Guard. Sheild should probably be a flat amount for reliability's sake.

ExecutorDill2 votes

Q- Deals 65/110/155/200/245 +65% AP and 40% Bonus AD and steals 10/15/20/25/30% of their armor and magic resist. Range 525. Cooldown 6/5.5/5/4.5/4 secs. Heals 5/12/19/28/35 +1.5% Max Health.

W- Passive: Self Healing- Shen gains 20/40/60/80/100% of his Base Health Regen. Active: for 3 seconds the passive "Self Healing" is tripled making it 60/120/180/240/300% and gains a shield that absorbs 65/110/155/200/245 +50% Bonus Armor and Magic Resist. (passive reducer removed).

E- Deals 55/95/135/175/215 +75% AP and 50% Bonus Mov Spd. Hitting an enemy with shadow dash resets the Ki Strike and it deals 25% extra damage. Dashing to a Target marked with Vorpal Blade reduces the cooldown of the next shadow dash by 2 seconds.

Done251 votes

{quoted}

Q- Deals 65/110/155/200/245 +65% AP and 40% Bonus AD and steals 10/15/20/25/30% of their armor and magic resist. Range 525. Cooldown 6/5.5/5/4.5/4 secs. Heals 5/12/19/28/35 +1.5% Max Health.

W- Passive: Self Healing- Shen gains 20/40/60/80/100% of his Base Health Regen. Active: for 3 seconds the passive "Self Healing" is tripled making it 60/120/180/240/300% and gains a shield that absorbs 65/110/155/200/245 +50% Bonus Armor and Magic Resist. (passive reducer removed).

E- Deals 55/95/135/175/215 +75% AP and 50% Bonus Mov Spd. Hitting an enemy with shadow dash resets the Ki Strike and it deals 25% extra damage. Dashing to a Target marked with Vorpal Blade reduces the cooldown of the next shadow dash by 2 seconds.

I think you're overloading his abilities, but I like the direction his E is leaning towards! How about something like:

Shadow Dash: 100 Energy - Shen dashes in the targeted direction, damaging and taunting every enemy he hits. Enemy champions restore 20 energy and reduce the remaining cool drown of Ki strike by 50%. (Calculated individually).

This helps reduce Shadow Cash's huge cost by both refunding a little energy for every champion hit, and providing a diminishion reduction to Ki Strike's cool down to help keep it rewarding even when you only hit one guy.

The Soulforged1 votes

Braum already takes that role.

Done251 votes

{quoted}

Braum already takes that role.

Braum plays entirely differently.

The Soulforged1 votes

{quoted}

Braum plays entirely differently.

True, their kits are different, but Braum is supposed to be that bodyguard tank who actually protects the adc.

Done251 votes

{quoted}

True, their kits are different, but Braum is supposed to be that bodyguard tank who actually protects the adc.

And you can't have more than one champion take on a different interpretation of the role? And I would argue that Braum is more of a team wide protector with his projectile blocking shield. Shen is all about peeling Xin away from the squishies before they get speared too badly.

Meep Man1 votes

Or we could make him a Tank that revolves around invisibility

Done251 votes

[{quoted}](name=Inept Maverick,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=l99jPGFj,comment-id=0005,timestamp=2015-01-03T22:20:52.371+0000)

Or we could make him a Tank that revolves around invisibility

I'm listening, but I don't understand why you would WANT an invisible tank. XD Since the Tank style is all about being the most high profile team fight threat. (Like the Amumu positioning himself for a five man Curse of the Sad Mummy ult on your entire team.)

ExecutorDill1 votes

You love shen and Malzahar just like me? xD

Done251 votes

{quoted}

You love shen and Malzahar just like me? xD

Hmmmm?

ExecutorDill1 votes

Hour on,y thing that really needs a full change is his W. The Q and E just need minor value adjustments, passive ok. Though I would like his ult help him with his landing phase like some sort of passive, you know like what Olaf has.

Done251 votes

{quoted}

Hour on,y thing that really needs a full change is his W. The Q and E just need minor value adjustments, passive ok. Though I would like his ult help him with his landing phase like some sort of passive, you know like what Olaf has.

I agree. I really don't like how his W works. Either you can break it in a 1v1 and renders his passive weaker, or you can't and he just whacks you over and over again while you can't hurt him.

SparrowPriest1 votes

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mbr8Rcktsu4 "Possibly as a high HP single target AD fighter."

Done251 votes

{quoted}

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mbr8Rcktsu4 "Possibly as a high HP single target AD fighter."

I'm confused. What is the point of the video you linked?

Shahamut1 votes

My thoughts on a rework of Shen's kit: Increase MS to 345, Now gains MR per level, Small increase to base HP/HP per level.

Passive:Feint

Shen is a ninja, and is thus a difficult target to pin down in a fight. His quick reactions and movements and keen senses allow him to roll with the punches and avoid damage.

Shen takes 6/8/10% less damage from basic attacks (levels 1/6/11) and Area of Effect Skills. After taking damage from 10/9/8 such attacks (levels 1/6/11) Shen gains stealth and the ability to move through units for 2 seconds. Activating a skill or attacking breaks this effect immediately.

Passive: Shadow Strike

After Shen enters stealth, his next attack within 5 seconds deals dmg to all nearby enemies (range: 250?), slowing them by 50% for 2.5 seconds.

Thoughts: This new passive allows for Shen to remain tanky, while also having the ability to reposition in combat. It rewards him with "ninja flare" for doing his job, being the front line and protecting his allies.

Q: Vorpal Blade_____Cost: 50 Energy________Cooldown: 8 seconds

Shen throws one of his swords in a straight line (Im thinking 600 range) that deals 80/120/160/200/240 (+50% Bonus AD)(+30%AP) magic damage to the first target hit, marking them and revealing them to Shen for 5 seconds. While marked Shen may reactivate this skill to cast Retrieval.

Q: Retrieval_______Cost: 25 Energy (Q's cooldown starts after this is cast, or the target is no longer marked)

Shen appears behind his target and rips the Vorpal Blade from them, dealing magic damage equal to 6/7/8/9/10% of the targets max health and healing Shen for the same.

The vorpal blade drinks the life of its targets and returns it to its weilder

THOUGHTS: This makes the skill more dynamic and fun to use. Grants him some fun uses, potential engage, escape, and feels ninja like when you just appear behind him. It gives him some decent sustain, but not over bearing and not as constant.

W: Ki-Strike_____ Cost: None____________Cooldown: 10/9.5/9/8.5/8 seconds

Shen's next basic attack deals bonus magic damage equal to 50% AD plus 10% Shen's bonus health. Hitting an enemy champion will restore 20 energy. Basic attacks against non-structures reduce the cooldown of this ability by 1 second, doubled vs Champions. If used in conjunction with Shadow Strike, the duration and power of the slow is increase to 65% for 3.25 seconds. Hitting multiple enemy champions does not restore more energy.

THOUGHTS: As an auto-attack reset, this should increase Shen's dueling power, as he can save his Ki-Strikes for the right moments. He can use it immediately for 1v1 dmg output, or save it for when his passive stealth procs to try and get a bigger slow on targets.

E: Shadow Dash________Cost: 120/110/100/90/80

Shen dashes a short distance (450) and deals 50/80/110/140/170(+60%AP) magic damage to all enemies he hits. Hitting enemy champions refunds 50% of the energy and taunts them for 1/1.25/1.5/1.75/2 seconds. While taunted, enemy champions must auto-attack Shen and Shen takes 50% reduced damage from them (DR applies to auto attacks only). Hitting multiple enemy champions does not refund more energy. The distance Shen dashes is increased by 50% of his bonus movement speed.

THOUGHTS: Ghost synergy anyone? :P Mobility tank is what I like here. Running from a ninja should be difficult.

R:Eye of Twilight/Shadow Protector

Passive: Eye of Twilight: Whenever Shen is stealthed (via his passive) he reveals invisible/stealthed units and traps within 500/550/600 range.

ACTIVE: Shadow Protector: Shen enters the realm of shadows, becoming untargetable and granting a shield to nearby allies (1000 range) equal to 10% of his max HP for up to 5 seconds. While he remains in the shadows, shielded allies can see invisible/stealthed units and traps within 300 range of themselves. The first time an allies Shield is broken, Shen leaves the shadows and appears next to ally.

THOUGHTS: This new ultimate would keep Shen as a team fight protector. The rest of his skills would still make him an effective split pusher, but doing so means his ult has less use. If Shen is supposed to be a ninja tank/protector, he should need to be with his team to do so. Split pushing should have a trade off.

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