The Final Word - An upgrade for Last Whisper

Done25··45 votes·3,926 views

item 1036+item 1037=item 3035 40 AD 15% armor penetration item 3035+item 1037= The Final Word 80 AD 30% armor penetration

This keeps the LW as an anti armor rush item, but gives it an additional step up if you need even MORE armor penetration. The Final Word has more AD in exchange for 5% less armor penetration, making it more slot efficient, harder to rush, and less "I have this item, all armor is now worthless".

EDIT: Feel free to imagine the numbers as something that pleases you. I just wanted to make the case for power shifting Last Whisper like they did Hex Drinker -> Maw of Malmortius.

100 Comments

Sneak Dog8 votes

So... tanks are even squishier lategame due to the extra ad adcs get in a full-build? Why can't tanks have a lategame fantasy of being tanky or at least forcing one enemy to build to kill tanks rather than squishies?

Done2510 votes

[{quoted}](name=Sneak Dog,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=0i78AOaA,comment-id=0009,timestamp=2015-01-19T22:38:57.158+0000)

So... tanks are even squishier lategame due to the extra ad adcs get in a full-build? Why can't tanks have a lategame fantasy of being tanky or at least forcing one enemy to build to kill tanks rather than squishies?

This version actually has 5% less penetration than what LW currently has and, due to the much higher cost of +1000~1200 gold, attempting to rush it early game leave the marksman without a Bloodthirster or PD/IE.

Sneak Dog9 votes

Yeah, my complaint wasn't about the cost-efficiency but the slot-efficiency and the goal of the item. Adcs seem to have all the slot-efficiency and tanks actually have quite some slot-inefficiency (Randuins is 96% cost-efficient in raw armor/health, IEdge 102%). I'd prefer last whisper to be something an adc buys specifically to kill tanks. Your suggestion in the OP is quite the contrary.

Done251 votes

[{quoted}](name=Sneak Dog,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=0i78AOaA,comment-id=000900000000,timestamp=2015-01-19T23:01:36.615+0000)

Yeah, my complaint wasn't about the cost-efficiency but the slot-efficiency and the goal of the item. Adcs seem to have all the slot-efficiency and tanks actually have quite some slot-inefficiency (Randuins is 96% cost-efficient in raw armor/health, IEdge 102%). I'd prefer last whisper to be something an adc buys specifically to kill tanks. Your suggestion in the OP is quite the contrary.

Uhhh, well you buy it over a BT because you want the penetration instead of the life steal + shield.

But trust me, I will not deny that durability as a whole is a bit wonky atm. Just look at how much they keep nerfing Warmogs!

Would you believe that at one point it gave over 1200+ HP?

LankPants5 votes

I think what he's saying is that he doesn't like LW being in every endgame build. Your item would be in more endgame builds than current LW.

Done251 votes

{quoted}

I think what he's saying is that he doesn't like LW being in every endgame build. Your item would be in more endgame builds than current LW.

How can it be in more builds if every single Marksman and AD Assassin ALREADY buys it by their 3rd or 4th item?

And I don't mind it being in the game. What I mind is that people are getting it too quickly and too cheaply for the power it gives. (As in too much of the gold goes towards the armor penetration, if you're getting what I mean.)

Riot also needs to buff/rebalance defensive items as a whole.

Sire Hippington3 votes

i would buy it on ad-tanks like rene as well, having the highest ad value and thebest ad-amp(30%arpen) on one item... don't really like it, just as sneak dog said, if you go for the anti tank %pen, you should fall short on damage vs squishys comparable, but with having 80 ad on it, that won't happen, so there is no reason for any physical damage dealing champ to not get it, while it would also further increase the gap between damage and tankiness at lategame.

Done251 votes

[{quoted}](name=Don Pavoni,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=0i78AOaA,comment-id=0009000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2015-01-19T23:26:09.684+0000)

i would buy it on ad-tanks like rene as well, having the highest ad value and thebest ad-amp(30%arpen) on one item... don't really like it, just as sneak dog said, if you go for the anti tank %pen, you should fall short on damage vs squishys comparable, but with having 80 ad on it, that won't happen, so there is no reason for any physical damage dealing champ to not get it, while it would also further increase the gap between damage and tankiness at lategame.

It's not like we can't lower/alter the penetration if needed. I just wanted to make the case for weakening LW as THE early game anti armor item in exchange for shifting the power to a late game version. Like they did for Hex Drinker -> Maw of Malmortious.

Sire Hippington2 votes

just that adding anymore power to the lategame of physical-dds is a rather bad idea balancewise, as they are already massivly outscaling any other clases save for some mages(Cassiopeia ) It'S also not as if LW was a bad item lategame, since the arpen scales damn well, like it was with old hextrinker, nor that LW is rushed and kinda broken in lane, as it was case with hextrinker...

LankPants3 votes

How can it be in more builds if every single Marksman and AD Assassin buys it by their 3rd or 4th item?

You might stall ADC's from buying this item but there's no reason for an AD assassin not to rush it. If I go brute into this item I get perfect stats for an AD assassin, off 1 and a half items I get 105 AD, 10 flat pen, 10% CDR and 30% pen for around 4.5 K gold. (assuming your item sits at around 3.3 K) This is a perfect stat spread for an AD assassin that doesn't cost too much.

And I don't mind it being in the game. What I mind is that people are getting it too quickly and too cheaply for the power it gives.

I was specifically talking about 6 item builds. This item would go from being a situational item on champs like Lee and J4 to being in every 6 item build. People would start building it on champs like Jax and Irelia. You've made armour pen slot efficient, in a 6 item situation it's just far too good.

EfficientDynamo1 votes

This is SO accurate. It would become a must-buy for every assassin, and end up being a buff to Zed since he tends to rush this item earlier than most.

I like the idea of going the hexdrinker route though. Mid-tier item building into an expensive late game item is a workable idea, but in the OP's iteration the final item is not at all as situational or balanced as Maw of M.

Done251 votes

{quoted}

This is SO accurate. It would become a must-buy for every assassin, and end up being a buff to Zed since he tends to rush this item earlier than most.

I like the idea of going the hexdrinker route though. Mid-tier item building into an expensive late game item is a workable idea, but in the OP's iteration the final item is not at all as situational or balanced as Maw of M.

What would you suggest then? I'm quite open to finding some balanced form of bonus penetration. Perhaps aiming to punish people who build more than 150~300 bonus armor?

EfficientDynamo1 votes

Bonus armor would probably be the simplest and maybe best solution. Alternatively you could tie up its power in a unique passive. With Maw of M, you get decent attack damage and magic resist and some situationally very powerful passives. With the Final Word, maybe gaining more armor penetration with each shot like the Sanguine Blade?

Done251 votes

{quoted}

Bonus armor would probably be the simplest and maybe best solution. Alternatively you could tie up its power in a unique passive. With Maw of M, you get decent attack damage and magic resist and some situationally very powerful passives. With the Final Word, maybe gaining more armor penetration with each shot like the Sanguine Blade?

Mmm. That reminds me a bit too much of the Black Cleaver. I don't want them stepping on each other's toes.

EfficientDynamo1 votes

Fair point. Would it be substantively different if their mechanics were identical, but the final work stacked % armor penetration while Black Cleaver stacked flat armor penetration? That way one would be clearly anti-tank vs. general purpose.

You could also fiddle with whether the stacks are added from only autoattacks vs. whenever you cause physical damage (from spells or AA's). Its also worth looking at whether you or your opponent gets the stacks, as the latter is much more powerful.

Sneak Dog1 votes

I remember the League of Warmogs. It had a certain charm. Not a great one though.

You don't get it in your finalized build over BT though. You buy IE, PD, BT, LW, boots and a defense item or even a Scimitar. These four items are used for insane, optimal autoattack damage on anyone while having lifesteal. Sometimes you want a bit more frontloaded damage with shiv over PD, or better kiting or kit synergy with BoRK over BT. But four items with crit/ad/as/arpen multiply eachother enough to make short work of anyone since tanks only have armor/health synergizing for them, with awkward slot-efficiency, imbalanced health amounts (I heard somewhere you need 15 health per armor for optimal efficiency without enemies having LW, 23 with) and multiple resistance types that don't help against the other type of damage one little bit.

Your suggestion only buffs this adc combination lategame versus squishies and nerfs it perhaps a tiny bit versus tanks (40 ad more, 15 arpen less?). It still doesn't make Last Whisper the item to get when you want to melt tanks. It makes it the item to get when you have already a lot of physical damage, and it also allows you to melt tanks.

Keep in mind that all of this is full-build 6-item lategame. I'd kind of like tanks to be able to join in having a lategame fantasy that also involves them being tanky or at least tanky against four out of five enemies. Your suggestion is definitely a midgame nerf, but that's just increasing the cost.

What I would like is a suggestion that makes Last Whisper the item to get not when you want to kill squishies or generally optimize your dps, but when you want to kill tanks.

Done251 votes

[{quoted}](name=Sneak Dog,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=0i78AOaA,comment-id=00090000000000000001,timestamp=2015-01-19T23:28:28.166+0000) What I would like is a suggestion that makes Last Whisper the item to get not when you want to kill squishies or generally optimize your dps, but when you want to kill tanks.

The problem is, what happens when the enemy ADC gets 6 kills by the end of lane and use that gold to buy the exclusively anti-armor item with 50% bonus armor penetration? They were already ahead of you. And now you have NOTHING you can buy to fight against them.

LankPants2 votes

but you still have 50-60 base armour and they just wasted around 1k gold on a passive that reduces your armour by 6. If you had a BF sword to their LW you'd be ahead of them in terms of trading.

It's rare for ADC's to build armour early anyway.

Done252 votes

I ment as in you're Sejuani and that Thornmail you're thinking about getting just lost a good 50 armor, literally cutting its value in half

LankPants1 votes

If you're a level 9 Sejuani with a frozen heart (because thornmail is a bad rush) you have 50 base armour, your passive gives 15 bonus armour, you have 20 bonus armour from runes and masteries and 100 from F/heart. You have 185 total armour 50 of which is base armour and 135 bonus.

Current LW 185*.65=120.25

50% bonus pen 50+135*0.5 50+67.5=117.5

3 armour difference. In a situation where you rushed an inefficient first item over a Rands or Sunfire. It's also weaker against everyone else on your team.

At level 18 you require around 230 armour for 50% bonus pen to be better than 35% flat pen.

Done251 votes

{quoted}

If you're a level 9 Sejuani with a frozen heart (because thornmail is a bad rush) you have 50 base armour, your passive gives 15 bonus armour, you have 20 bonus armour from runes and masteries and 100 from F/heart. You have 185 total armour 50 of which is base armour and 135 bonus.

Current LW 185*.65=120.25

50% bonus pen 50+135*0.5 50+67.5=117.5

3 armour difference. In a situation where you rushed an inefficient first item over a Rands or Sunfire. It's also weaker against everyone else on your team.

At level 18 you require around 230 armour for 50% bonus pen to be better than 35% flat pen.

Frozen Heart is ridiculously cost effective. It's one of the few armor items that can claim this last I checked.

And maybe you're right. I haven't gone around crunching the maths on a case by case basis or anything.

Sneak Dog2 votes

Armour is easily come by. Getting it while having an appropriate amount of health and also some mr is the issue. Then the enemy buys %arpen and %mpen and you want health even more. Somewhere unreliable on these boards I heard you need 15 health/armor for optimal efficiency, 23 health/armor vs last whisper.

And it's the health items that are inefficient. Passives not included they are: Sunfire 81% Warmogs 85% Mallet 89% Visage 106% (79% if buying only for health/mr) Veil 97% (84% if buying only for health/mr)

Now we take the main adc items and disregard bork (bork efficiency is bonkers if you count the %health damage as ad btw). Passives not included they are: BT 113% IE 102% LW 63% PD 127% Shiv 102%

Don't use absolute cost values to compare though. Tanks items are all cheaper to accomodate for a tanks lesser gold income. Their cost-efficiency compared to the starting items is laughable compared to offensive items though. On top of that they have to itemize two resistances and have only two primary stats to scale with eachother instead of three like adcs as/ad/crit).

Cold steel passive also almost evens out with the IE passive with 55% crit chance.

Gold efficiency values taken from the wikia. You can see their math there. essentially it just takes the base cost of ad from long sword, for health from ruby crystal etc.

LankPants2 votes

I always liked swapping out some of the AD for AS, reducing the pen to 25% of bonus armour and doubling it for autos. There's an item that would only work VS tanks and not be as good of a buy on casters, they're meant to use cleaver anyway.

UberAffe3 votes

I like the idea of an upgrade to LW, I'm not 100% sold on gaining 40 ad at the cost of 5% armor pen but maybe with gold costs it would be a reasonable change.

Dingding1233 votes

ad champs definitely need more expensive items to invest in. And right now it's stupid design for LW to cost 2300 while Brutalizer is 1337.

+1

Sire Hippington1 votes

yea, cause having the 3 most expensive items in the game for them isn't enough, nor is having by far the most 3k+ items at their disposal.

but hey, tanks have not even a 3000+ item, we need a even more slotefficient item to fight them at lategame...

Sneak Dog1 votes

Ah, this is on purpose. Tanks have less income due to dealing less damage, so their items are cheaper to accomodate.

Sire Hippington3 votes

as toplaner, you still often enough can stay on pair with farm, and reach fullgear in the late. However, fullgear on a tank always means ~2000g less stats than fullgear on a DD, especially on a adc, so even without the aditional multipliers(ad got 4 with ad+as+crit%+crit-dmg, while tanky got two with health + armor/mr), ad already outscales tankiness. Simply buffing tankitems at lower goldcosts will only lead to early S3, tanks and bruisers beeing immortal if they have a lead by midgame, as they can be the player with most gold at midgame while having the most cost efficient build

balanceing tankiness puerly around low gold is no proper way to due it, unless you fine with tanks either beeing nothing more than a kamikaze-initiate at lategame or tanks beeing gods at midgame.(with tanks i mean everyone who goes tanky)

Sneak Dog1 votes

It's harder to get kills if you don't build damage. If you build a damage item, your build is probably already 500g more expensive.

Tankiness can be balanced around lesser gold values just fine. But currently there isn't much reward for going full tank rather than 1 damage item. Bruisers love to use (abuse?) this.

Sire Hippington2 votes

there never was any real point in getting full-tank unless you needed it to survive atleast long enough to get one spell-rota off. Going fulltank means you can be 100% ignored while your cc is on cd, if you can afford it in anyway, building 1 damageitem benefits you so much more.

Also, kills arn't the main income, unless you get a good amount off shutdowns or play Draven most gold usually comes from farming, and most offtanks are boss at farming once they have a samll lead in lane. if a game ends befor ~30min, it's not a rare thing to have more gold on a toplaner than on the adc. With tanks income spikeing in the midgame, but dropping at late as they can't farm as much anymore while carrys gain usually the killgold, having proper balance simply won't occure. If tank-items are strong enough for the late to work, tanks will have a godlike powerspike at midgame, if tankitems are appropiate for midgame they will scale poorly into late, S2 had a much better system for tanks, as you couldn't easily get health+defstats or tons off health imidiatly, so midgame-powerspike wasn't as great, but once you got 3+ tankitems, they scaled well into the late, as Warmongs gave massive hp+hp/5 once stacked, FoN granted insane hp/5 with a stacked warmongs and great mr, and FH/Randuins just gave the needed armor+as-slow. A single of those items wasn't a huge powerspike on its own, even two were not massive, but all 3 together realy gave you tankines and sustain, later is massivly missing currently...

in S3, Warmongs gave to much at once, snowballing out of controll if gained early, and Randuins also gave to much effecktive hp for the gold, so a renekton with a early randuins was prettymuch immortal, which was pretty problematic.

so either get back to S2, have stacking items and much stronger synergie between tank-items, or somehow get tanks goldcurve more similar to carrys, otherwise the powercurves will always deffer greatly. Some people probably actually want very destinct and clearly sepperated powercurves amongst different casses, but i personally think it sucks to have an xperation timer on your class, or feeling like fighting for survive till ~70% of the game is already over, just to turn godmode on. Having differences is ok, but i'd like to feel somewhat relevant at every stage of the game with every champ, which simply doesn't happen atm.

something that also could really help would be changeing LW to work like a selfish BC, a stacking debuff that grants you %pen vs a the target. This would decrease your power vs squishys, especially on assains/casters as the first few hits would not profit much from it, and it would allow you to seriuosly hurt tanks** IF** you actually deside to focuse them for a longer duration.

Sneak Dog2 votes

I agree, I'd like tanks to be tanky to anyone that didn't invest heavily into being a tankbuster. Just a single last whisper isn't a big investment. More synergetic tanks item would be great, or perhaps an inherent thing to differentiate between the true tanks and the bruisers.

Arkna2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Sneak Dog,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=0i78AOaA,comment-id=0003000000010000000000000000,timestamp=2015-01-20T03:21:47.801+0000)

I agree, I'd like tanks to be tanky to anyone that didn't invest heavily into being a tankbuster. Just a single last whisper isn't a big investment. More synergetic tanks item would be great, or perhaps an inherent thing to differentiate between the true tanks and the bruisers.

When I play full tanks, late game, it's generally not the enemy ADC I'm worried about. They're vulnerable to a good engage, and if you did well enough to incorporate a bit of damage to your build (Abyssal/Sunfire/IBG), you can kill them yourself if they don't have summoners (Malphite and Amumu are probably the best examples)

The enemy mid laner? MR is significantly harder to itemize for, and does nothing for your ability to tank turrets, (something that's really underrated) and they are generally not only mobile enough to avoid your engage, the generally have tools to launch a counter engage or just stop yours outright, while also having access to the best hybrid offensive/defensive items in the game (Rylais+Liandries, (more of an AP bruiser thing tbh, but still an option on some), Zhonya's, and Archangels Staff). They also tend to have the best poke, something tanks tend to struggle with due to a lack of sustain.

junglerboy163 votes

Surprizingly enough, I actually like this idea. It means that no more will an ADC or assassin be able to rush LW first item without any repercussions on their standard build. I would say make the new last whisper only give 10% arpen instead of 15%, and then make the next tier upgrade build out of a BF sword instead of another pickaxe while only giving 25% arpen. The cost for the final word would have to be in the 3600-3800 range, so that it isn't an easy rush.

Sneak Dog3 votes

Great little sidenote. I ran some calculations. If you want to get the maximum amount of effective health, have 0 armor and health and are only building cloth armor and ruby crystals (well, spending gold where each 150 health costs 400g and each 15 armor costs 300g), the relative amount you spend on armor goes up when you have more gold to spend.

At 1200g, you'll spend all your gold on health. I'm not kidding, get 3 ruby crystals, have 450 health and 0 armor and be happy. Getting even only 3 armor for 60g will cost you 22.5 health and will only get your effective health up to 440.

At** 6000 gold,** spend 67% of your gold on health and the rest on armor for an effective health of 3k, with 1507 health and 99 armor. If they have a** last whisper**, spend 76% of your gold on health instead, for an effective health of 2510, with 1710 health and 72 armor.

At** 12000 gold**, spend 58% of your gold on healht and the rest on armor for an effective health of 9187, with 2610 health and 252 armor. If they have a** last whisper**, spend 63% of your gold on health and the rest on armor for an effective health of 6926, with 2835 health and 222 armor.

I find this quite interesting. I heard on the forums before that at 1500 health you want 100 armor and this is true. But you'll want 200 armor way before 3000 health, Last Whisper or not. This clears up why there are 100 armor items like thornmail and frozen heart but no good big health items.

Edit: If you're curious, I managed to put it into wolfram alpha too. Haven't figured out a way to get a nice 2-dimensional line from the perfect balance between health and armor yet though. With 6000 gold and a last whisper factor it looks like:

MAX((X/(8/3))*(1+(6000-X)/2000**0.65))

http://www.wolframalpha.com/

Champion Skin2 votes

Well there is also the fact that health is more generally more useful in that you it also work against magic damage and true damage

Sneak Dog3 votes

Please don't make me include that. I'm already thinking hard enough how to efficiently get all the health/armor ratios at different gold values into a list.

Arkna3 votes

[{quoted}](name=Sneak Dog,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=0i78AOaA,comment-id=001600000000,timestamp=2015-01-20T11:49:58.493+0000)

Please don't make me include that. I'm already thinking hard enough how to efficiently get all the health/armor ratios at different gold values into a list.

That's not even accounting for the fact that heals are more effective on high resist targets.

Sneak Dog2 votes

That ones easy, just take the amount of health you expect to get from the healing and use it as health.

Champion Skin2 votes

Well there isn't really any way to include true damage other then STACK HP And Mr is the exact same as armor just that... if you need both armor and mr at the same time this will make hp better since hp works against both magic and physical and true damage

But obviously hp is worse against % damage And it is worse with heals but it is better with armor/mr steroids

Oh and Poppy passive with shields/healing/spell vamp or whatever can be pretty insane after all if poppy has 500 health and she takes 750 damage (after armor and mr and in one hit) she will be left with 100 hp Her passive is so strong

Crett3 votes

Who the HECK needs more armor pene... Wait it has less armor penetration and costs more gold? http://img3.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20140611014217/warhammer40kfanon/images/2/2d/2837453-good_good.jpg put it in riot

InsaneSamurai2 votes

I dunno. You ever play a tank and wonder why you are just another squishy to Zed, and realize he just bought a LW? One cheap item already nullifies a huge percentage of your defenses, it doesn't need to be even more of a tank ruiner.

Done254 votes

{quoted}

I dunno. You ever play a tank and wonder why you are just another squishy to Zed, and realize he just bought a LW? One cheap item already nullifies a huge percentage of your defenses, it doesn't need to be even more of a tank ruiner.

The LW I'm suggesting has only 15% penetration vs the 35%(!!!) it has on live.

InsaneSamurai1 votes

But it ends up with 30, and more AD. I do like that it costs more gold to get to that insane level of armor ignoring, but I still think that's just too much on one item to allow tanky champs to still properly do their job.

Done251 votes

{quoted}

But it ends up with 30, and more AD. I do like that it costs more gold to get to that insane level of armor ignoring, but I still think that's just too much on one item to allow tanky champs to still properly do their job.

Then it's a good thing it's not the Tank's (Amumu, Sejuani) job to kill the Marksman specifically. That's Udyr or Fizz's job.

jv21blU7oD2 votes

Armor pen is strong enough as it is.

AMYS GRAVE1 votes

this is a nerf to the armor pen of LW...

Done251 votes

{quoted}

this is a nerf to the armor pen of LW...

Is that good or bad?

AMYS GRAVE2 votes

IMO good, armor pen is too strong. i'd be happy with the shift of power of LW to more ad less pen.

Ligerzz1 votes

I don't know. Last Whisper does it's job pretty good right now, but yeah i like the idea of what you're seeing. Although it could have a little less armor pen (say about 20%) then i think this could be a good next level tier for LW.

Done253 votes

{quoted}

I don't know. Last Whisper does it's job pretty good right now, but yeah i like the idea of what you're seeing. Although it could have a little less armor pen (say about 20%,) then i think this could be a good next level tier for LW.

If I had to take something away I'd remove a little more armor penetration. 20%~30% of max armor would probably be a healthy amount to aim for. At 20% it matches the 20 flat pen from Ghostblade at 100 armor. I just didn't want people to accuse me of trying to nerf the LW item(s) into oblivion. :P

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