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Support gold gen items, and how they can be improved.

Done25··40 votes·46,078 views

Right now, only item 3097 (Targon's Brace) is "worth" fully upgrading to item 3401 (Remnant of the Aspect). The item 1028 (Ruby Crystal) component melds perfectly with the fact that it's an HP item, and the final upgrade further improved the passive aspect by increasing the charges from three to four, increased the last hit thresh hold, and boosting the base heal from 40 to 50.

item 3096 (Nomad's Medallion) and item 3098 (Frostfang) do not share this advantage. Not only do they still need a item 1028 to upgrade, which does nothing for mages or enchanters who will probably want early AP to help them scale, but upgrading from T2 to T3 does nothing to improve their gold generation passives in any way.

Further more, all three items are extremely slot inefficient in what they offer to the holder. Were it not for the wards I would happily sell all three of these items in a heart beat once at max build to make room for a better item. This results in people buying the items because they "must", rather than because they "want" to.

Right now the final upgrades are exactly 100% gold efficient for item 3401 and item 3092 (Remnant of the Watcher) with item 3401 being better after you utilize the healing charges, while item 3069 (Remnant of the Ascended) is a wimpy 86% gold efficient.

But Done25, how do you make these potentially very power items worth having, without them being poached by other lanes? By focusing on what makes them useful to actual real support players.

item 3401 : Leave focus on the healing charges for power. This keeps it weak in the hands of solo laners, but makes sure that actual supports, who are usually with at least one other person, will stay strong.

item 3092 : Push more stats into the mana regen. Almost every intended user of this item, such as Lux, Morgana, Karma, and Lulu, will at some point purchase an Unholy Grail. By putting power into the mana regen you lock this item away from junglers like Eve or mages in mid. Most of whom wont want to build Unholy Grail because they can't use its full effects.

item 3069 : Give this item +Healing. Additionally, I would recommend changing the +move speed on this item line to "Out of combat" type in exchange for increasing the speed. This allows supports like Janna and Soraka to roam and ward, but prevents them from being too slippery in actual fights.

Listed below are examples of what I believe would be a good state for the rebuffed gold gen items. Please take current values with a grain of salt.

item 3401 : item 3097 + item 3067 (Kindlegem). Total cost is 2250 for 600 HP, 10% CDR, and 200% base HP regen. The healing portion of the passive is buffed in some manner.

item 3092 : item 3098 + item 3108 (Fiendish Codex) . Total cost is 2300 for 60 AP, 10% CDR, and 100% base mana regen. (10% CDR on Frostfang would be converted into other stats.)

item 3069 : item 3096 + Forbidden Idol item 3114 . Total cost is 2000 for +40 OoC move speed, +15% heal power, +10% CDR. (HP regen removed from Nomad in favor of the increased OoC move speed and of a lower, more efficient, item cost.)

Additionally, item 3092 and item 3069 should have their gold gen passives increased to make supports feel better about finishing their item early on, rather than skipping out on T3 in exchange for finishing the much more useful Ardent or Unholy Grail first.

item 3092 : Holds up to 4 charges. Charge damage increased to 25. item 3096 : Enemy champion take downs will now result in the drop of either a gold or mana coin as if they were a cannon minion. Coin pick up range is 200 units for T1, 400 units for T2, and 800 units for T3.

Thank you for your time, please leave your feed back below. :)

99 Comments

RiotRiot MapleNectar21 votes

One of our designers is doing a quick exploration into support items and their quest passive rewards to see if there's a way to kind of spice up the satisfaction and appreciable power loaded into them to make way for a few other gameplay changes we're trying out for preseason. I don't want to get into specifics yet since we haven't actually tested them (we get to tonight for the first time). To be clear, we're not just looking to buff the current passives, but rather replace them with something better. It's also a possibility we don't ship anything for it l, but wanted to let you know we're taking some time to explore.

GinoSoldier3 votes

[{quoted}](name=Maple Nectar,realm=NA,application-id=ELUpwER8,discussion-id=PKZQhYk8,comment-id=0010,timestamp=2018-09-05T22:50:13.108+0000)

One of our designers is doing a quite spike exploration into support items and their quest passive rewards to see if there's a way to kind of spice up the satisfaction and appreciable power loaded into them to make way for a few other gameplay changes we're trying out for preseason. I don't want to get into specifics yet since we haven't actually tested them (we get to tonight for the first time). To be clear, we're not just looking to buff the current passives, but rather replace them with something better.

Disregarding everything else; do you think there's any way you guys could bring support income to par with everyone else's? I feel like the low cost/low personal power of support items is a major reason why people dislike the role.

Not disregarding everything else; I just hope for a way to reliably proc the Targon line at all times in the game.

GRIMThousandEyes4 votes

I don't think they'd really wanna do that. Gold income shouldn't be a massive thing because it's generally in line with the items you buy as a support. You get less gold but you also don't need to spend as much gold.

If they brought gold level in line with other players you'd see nothing but mage/fighter champs in the bot lane to try and stomp.

dark100dark1002 votes

The opposite direction is a problem: cost efficient support items are too good for laners / junglers. If supports get more gold, and their items are more expensive, problem solved. However riot usually do awkward changes instead.

mariyaaa1 votes

Agreed. Items like knights vow and zekes are rushed on tank jungler in lcs for good reason. Solid stats and effect for dirt cheap price.

XeroKimo1 votes

Well making items cost more would usually mean they'd have to provide better stats or buffs to passives because items usually aren't super gold inefficient unless the passive makes up for it. If stats do get buffed in compensation for higher cost, I'd argue that laners/ junglers would love the items more, since they aren't sacrificing as much tankiness or damage anymore for the item. On the flip side if they buff the passives, this would either A) supports become OP due to items and supports get nerfed and become reliant on them B) like ardent meta, people would stack whatever support items they can or shift the meta so much to favor using support items.

I think supports items are better this way, because if other roles want to buy the items, they're sacrificing stats for getting an item that's quicker to buy, meanwhile supports won't get bothered too much because it's optimal for them to buy cheaper items with their lower income

dark100dark1001 votes

I am sorry if I was not clear. I don't want stat buffs for support items. Their support specific advantages should worth buying them for supports even if they cost more.

XeroKimo1 votes

That's not gonna work though, on average support items cost anywhere from 2200-2400 gold, if you make it cost around the same amount of gold of the cheapest items for other classes, which is on average 2800, that's 600-400 gold price increase for nothing, I'm sure all supports would rather buy ap items, or actual tank items then if you change nothing about the item. If you do end up changing something, you run into 2 potential problems above

JMoormann2 votes

But why would you even play a support at that point? The strength from supports comes mostly from them being useful without a lot of gold. If the 5th player can get as much gold as the others, why would you play a support there when you can just play a champ that scales much better with the gold?

Also, the way League is designed is that there are 3.5 "gold sources": the 3 lanes, and a bit less from the jungle. There is no easy way to just add a 5th gold source for the support without laners abusing it (for example, if support items gave as much gold, laners would just take it and get the same gold without even having to CS)

GinoSoldier1 votes

{quoted}

But why would you even play a support at that point? The strength from supports comes mostly from them being useful without a lot of gold. If the 5th player can get as much gold as the others, why would you play a support there when you can just play a champ that scales much better with the gold?

Also, the way League is designed is that there are 3.5 "gold sources": the 3 lanes, and a bit less from the jungle. There is no easy way to just add a 5th gold source for the support without laners abusing it (for example, if support items gave as much gold, laners would just take it and get the same gold without even having to CS)

See my reply to Velasan just above, ought to explain how i feel about it all.

JMoormann1 votes

You haven't addressed how to implement another gold source that is only available for specifically a non-CSing player in a duo lane where the other person is CSing. Because if it's just put on items or runes or whatever without a very large amount of restrictions, we will see solo laners taking those and getting the same income without having to CS.

GinoSoldier1 votes

{quoted}

You haven't addressed how to implement another gold source that is only available for specifically a non-CSing player in a duo lane where the other person is CSing. Because if it's just put on items or runes or whatever without a very large amount of restrictions, we will see solo laners taking those and getting the same income without having to CS.

I don't have all the answers. Maybe the answer is to lock the items to the role, maybe its a major overhaul to the income system. I don't know. All i know is as far as we know it hasn't been attempted.

Illabethe1 votes

Actually, you have that reversed. If Supports are so powerful given cheap items, why wouldn't you play them as other roles?

I specialize in running Supports in Jungle..... because I can be competitive with other junglers/laners, whereas if I start out as a support, I generally am at the mercy of my adc in XP/gold/poke.

Mage supports that don't hit it off are more useless by contrast, because their items are expensive and running them in bot lane as a support is risky, and can lose them that income.

P.S. You're goofy if you think jungle gives less gold/XP than lanes.

P.P.S. Someone already gave a valid suggestion: create a macro role for support, where only Supports can buy support items. Your laners wouldn't be able to buy them then.

P.P.P.S there is another gold source: Kills.

Velasan3 votes

{quoted}

Disregarding everything else; do you think there's any way you guys could bring support income to par with everyone else's? I feel like the low cost/low personal power of support items is a major reason why people dislike the role.

Not disregarding everything else; I just hope for a way to reliably proc the Targon line at all times in the game.

Isn't that one of the ways they keep the support role in check? Not having higher gold income is one of the reasons you can't just take anything into the support role or have other laners take it and make a bunch of gold off just the item.

When their income gets too high you see things like damage supports 24/7, because why wouldn't you just play like you have a second mid laner? Often times a fed damage dealer will out do what a support healer could do in terms of sheer impact (i.e. Brand ult vs Nami wave for example, one can kill the whole enemy team the other one just sets up a fight).

I'm not so sure I would want a meta where supports have the most income. When that was true last season it focused the entire game heavily over to bot lane and whether it won or lost the lane in the early phase.

GinoSoldier1 votes

{quoted}

Isn't that one of the ways they keep the support role in check? Not having higher gold income is one of the reasons you can't just take anything into the support role or have other laners take it and make a bunch of gold off just the item.

When their income gets too high you see things like damage supports 24/7, because why wouldn't you just play like you have a second mid laner? Often times a fed damage dealer will out do what a support healer could do in terms of sheer impact (i.e. Brand ult vs Nami wave for example, one can kill the whole enemy team the other one just sets up a fight).

I'm not so sure I would want a meta where supports have the most income. When that was true last season it focused the entire game heavily over to bot lane and whether it won or lost the lane in the early phase.

Thing is, i have a somewhat different vision of how the game ought to be and i tend to suggest things that would push that way. I highly dislike that the game allows one player to get half the benefits of game time because they don't get to scale via gold accumulation. If that means Support Income items have to be restricted to the support role like jungler items, so be it. I'd prefer not, but if it can't be done otherwise, then sure.

To give you an idea of what i want from support items in general, i want the only difference in overall power between Luden's Echo and Ardent Censer to be that one gives damage over time to allies, and the other gives spread burst, meaning similar cost, and similar stats. I want supports to be able to work up to that properly, and pay for it if they fail playing well.

I also want support items that don't have so many darn actives so we can have champions that don't all feel the same because they rely on them so much (Redemption/Locket meta anyone?), with the one at the top being the one who can abuse use them best. An example would be to remove Redemption's active and turn it into a champion's cool new ultimate, adjust it's stats and give it another reason to be bought.

Support's kits will need work, a lot of it; as an easy example, AP Sona goes from weak in lane to incredibly overbearing late game due to her scaled up E % MS. I have literally outrun Camille's hookshot dash with no boots maybe one month back from now. Healing as it is currently will need to be toned down, pretty damn sure of it.

As for why not just play another botlane mage? Well people already do regardless, as evidenced by Brand, Zyra and whatever other meta shenanigans people pull like Annie and Vel'Koz. I actually think this would dissuade them, because a strong support could straight up be a match for a powerful mage at all points in the game if played properly. They would both be played, but for different reasons and different goals.

As for other roles taking over bot lane? As long as the current supports are able to be played somewhere it is of no concern to me who plays botlane. And that is something that will have to be addressed as well. A handful of ADCs can already be played jungle, mid and top with fair success, now Leona, Braum, Taric and Alistar need to be able to go back to toplane/jungle without wrecking everything up there, and same for the enchanters in midlane.

I agree this isn't how everyone sees it, and i agree this is a huge amount of change i'm going for, but hey. People push for what they like, don't they? League is still a good game, this is just how i see it could be better.

Illabethe1 votes

The current meta does too (focus on bot lane). Jungle/Mid/Top are just along for the ride. The team's adc who gets Stormrazor first gets objective control, and the team whose adc gets IE first generally is the only team with an operational adc.

P.S. Supports can get insane income right now too..... if they snipe kills. Kills > Assists right now, since almost every assist offers NO GOLD. Part of the reason mage meta is still a thing in bot lane. I run a game when I set off my Zyra or Morgana FAR more than I do when I go 0/0/ 20 on Nami .

GRIMThousandEyes1 votes

Good to know. I have a few qualms with the current setup, mostly small things but the overall impact is that it feels like if you fall behind in lane it can be hard to utilize the items to catch back up.

Coin doesn't have this problem as much, but if you go Spellthief's and then start losing lane you end up losing even more because your ability to harass goes way down, or your ability to grab cannons with Relic dies down.

Having vision clearing/placing be a quest goal would possibly fit better and be a little more generalist and less snowbally while still fitting in line. I don't know if you're looking to keep unique quests on all items though. I think giving the stats a little more personality and generalizing the quests is something worth looking into at the least.

Sharpest glasses1 votes

unrelated but... will u address item 3715 ?? This item is ojectively op.

dasMensh1 votes

I haven't seen anyone use that item in a really long time and it's also really niche on top of that, most junglers just benefit more from blue smite

Sharpest glasses2 votes

u haven't seen it cause u don't play ranked maybe...

Most meta jungler pick it Graves XinZhao Kindred Camille Nocturne Rengar

Ifneth1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Maple Nectar,realm=NA,application-id=ELUpwER8,discussion-id=PKZQhYk8,comment-id=0010,timestamp=2018-09-05T22:50:13.108+0000)

One of our designers is doing a quick exploration into support items and their quest passive rewards to see if there's a way to kind of spice up the satisfaction and appreciable power loaded into them to make way for a few other gameplay changes we're trying out for preseason. I don't want to get into specifics yet since we haven't actually tested them (we get to tonight for the first time). To be clear, we're not just looking to buff the current passives, but rather replace them with something better. It's also a possibility we don't ship anything for it l, but wanted to let you know we're taking some time to explore.

Have you considered just increasing the quest reliability?

Jmman1 votes

From a support main let me tell you why no one wants to play support or likes the items.

First since I'm usually the highest rank person on my team, I'm screwing over another carry role. Because They are going against someone higher ranked. (this is true I can link history or a lot of games to prove this.) As support there is only a 20% chance that the other highest rank will be support. That mains the higher rank I get the harder it is to climb. A plat/diamond against my silver/gold carry isn't fun.

Since I'm a support I don't have the gold or power to carry / make-up for any losing lane UNLESS I play a carry support and build damage. So i'm forced to not upgrade and build for carry or AP items.

Then I'm depending on another player I don't know and is a lot of time lesser rank than me. So once again i'm at a disadvantage playing support. Gold income is crap, Then a lot of your gold has to go to pink wards. (good play needs them.) Once you get behind your really really behind.

I have an interesting idea. Maybe we can make all the classes good. Right now I feel like a 2nd class player as support. Oh yea if you lose lane don't worry it will take sooooo lone to complete the ward quest you might as well FF because they will control all the vision.

I don't understand why its soo hard to see the difference in solo que and team play where everyone is on voice chat and in the same room.

NaiveChocobo1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Maple Nectar,realm=NA,application-id=ELUpwER8,discussion-id=PKZQhYk8,comment-id=0010,timestamp=2018-09-05T22:50:13.108+0000)

One of our designers is doing a quick exploration into support items and their quest passive rewards to see if there's a way to kind of spice up the satisfaction and appreciable power loaded into them to make way for a few other gameplay changes we're trying out for preseason. I don't want to get into specifics yet since we haven't actually tested them (we get to tonight for the first time). To be clear, we're not just looking to buff the current passives, but rather replace them with something better. It's also a possibility we don't ship anything for it l, but wanted to let you know we're taking some time to explore.

I think a very slight buff is okay but I think each item needs a unique visual element that gets more noticeable as you upgrade. The visuals would make a huge difference.

Jamore2 votes

Just my own personal perspective as a support player (typically ali/braum with high emphasis in roaming), you can't really roam since the changes. Since your wards are directly related to your ability to stay in lane, it makes for a very boring play style or punish my team if my roam fails. Before, I could prioritize boots and roam since sightstone wasn't dependent on time in game. Having to hit a certain gold value on minion kills or idling for a quest to give you wards is terrible, you can't reduce the time with kills/assists so why roam if you can't get the quest finished? I hated this change but just bucked up then when the ADC nerf came in, I quit playing all together. I just recently started playing again but I'm not playing bot/support. It is very unsatisfying to play only for lane or play a mage and build ap (which I think is too rewarding to begin with <cough> Brand <cough> Zyra <cough>.

Jetboost2 votes

As i notice this is allready a month ago, how did the exploration go for the supp items If I may ask?

(the support items could also buff your trinkets/ trinket slot with perhaps something like an enchantment. some examples: An extra trinket slot, longer duration on your trinkets, faster cd on trinkets, increased vision range. Maybe even more, just wanted to throw some ideas your way maybe it helps or give you a new perspective.)

Done252 votes

{quoted}

As i notice this is allready a month ago, how did the exploration go for the supp items If I may ask?

(the support items could also buff your trinkets/ trinket slot with perhaps something like an enchantment. some examples: An extra trinket slot, longer duration on your trinkets, faster cd on trinkets, increased vision range. Maybe even more, just wanted to throw some ideas your way maybe it helps or give you a new perspective.)

This. Kind of sad we haven't heard anything back yet. :(

Jetboost2 votes

Indeed.

Support 4 Lyfe6 votes

Remember when upgrading item 3311 to item 3092 literally gave you less stats and less mana regen for 3 patches straight? Something tells me the balance team doesn't give 2 craps about supports and their items.

Craig3 votes

Something has got to be done about Remnant of the Watchers. That item has been nothing but a noob trap for autofilled Supports for several patches now.

Elf04913 votes

I agree that support items could use some changes. I was quite sad to see the old support items go, and in my eyes, the loss of their unique passives/actives made playing support much less engaging and rewarding. Before, if you did well and finished your support item, you were rewarded with extra utility that could make a difference in fights if used well. Now you get...wards. And wards are important, yes, but they can't do anything during fights, and take away some of the active participation you could get from the old items. So let me respond and hopefully add a bit to this discussion.

First, I agree and want to stress several things you already stated. The Ruby Crystal upgrade is silly. It doesn't make sense in terms of play style, and the extra 200 HP is not going to save you if you're a squishy mage enchanter. I also really don't understand the idea behind the gold coin line. Yes, it's cheaper, but why would I build it? If I'm a tanky melee support, I go for brace. If I'm an AP enchanter/mage character, I go for spellthief line. Maybe it's just me, but I can't think of any actual support that would want the coin... When it offered different active/passive effects, it mattered, but now it just doesn't offer anything worth taking.

So, how do we change the items without overpowering them and giving laners the chance to abuse them? I agree with your thoughts for the direction of both brace line and spellhief line. I'm still not sure what to do with the coin line, as it still seems a suboptimal choice compared to the other two. I don't quite agree with the idea of putting heal/shield power on it, but the idea of making it a roaming support item seems to have some potential. The gold generation to complete quests is still locked behind the 'needs a nearby ally,' or 'csing turns this off' mechanics, which would keep it out of the hands of single laners.

Personally, I would like to see added actives (beyond warding) make a comeback, instead of only pumping up the stats on the items. This could be based on an enchantment system, where you can swap any enchantment into any support item, allowing for more adaptability and options, or by once again being tied to the quest system; maybe after finishing the income quest to get wards, it starts another quest that grants you additional benefits of some kind. This would make the items feel unique, would reward players for selecting the right tools for the job, but would also allow the items to actually build up to something in the mid-late game without making them overpowered early on. This would also provide an incentive to complete support items to start working on the other quest/enchantment that adds more tactical power.

RedCyclone3 votes

I must know if you could consider returning the movement speed on spell hit to the Frostfang line?

I miss it so much, there is so much MS in the game from AD items and mage supports are prone to getting the fight turned on them (usually ded in 1 sec) Would love to have it or some iteration of it

Inkling Commando2 votes

one thing that should be improved is the gold gen per second. no matter what lvl it is always 2 gold per 10 sec. i am thinking it should go like this:

lvl 1: 2 gold per 10 sec lvl 2: 3 gold per 10 sec lvl 3: 5 gold per 10 sec

and when at full mana minion kills always drop gold coins. (you have no idea how annoying it is to be at full mana and a mana coin drops and is probably wasted).

TomiMan73 votes

If anything that shouldnt be increased. The stacks that gives gold should be increased, also the way to proc them.

Oleandervine2 votes

The #1 improvement to these items is locking them to the Support Role. That is 100% the only way these items can be balanced to be effective and efficient for the role they are intended for, and 100% the only way they can be crafted to avoid abuse cases. Until that happens, they will always be a problem for other lanes and always suffer.

Linna Excel1 votes

That would only be possible if there was a summoner's spell that was largely exclusive to supports and almost mandatory for them.

Oleandervine2 votes

It doesn't need a summoner spell. It can be bound to the role itself. Same with jungle items. It's outrageous that forgetting a summoner spell ruins the entire game for you, so binding role specific items to the role, instead of spells, will prevent a lot of problems.

Linna Excel2 votes

The problem with that is that players might switch roles in champ select. The person filled to support might switch with the guy going jungle or whatever.

IainG101 votes

You could implement a system to swap roles like the swap champion system, but that would probably take more work than we realise.

Done251 votes

[{quoted}](name=Linna Excel,realm=NA,application-id=ELUpwER8,discussion-id=PKZQhYk8,comment-id=000a0000,timestamp=2018-08-29T23:04:51.144+0000)

That would only be possible if there was a summoner's spell that was largely exclusive to supports and almost mandatory for them.

Heal. :D

Linna Excel3 votes

Heal is a good candidate, but it wasn't that long ago that ADCs were taking it.

Risk of Fate1 votes

[deleted]

Done256 votes

[{quoted}](name=Risk of Fate,realm=NA,application-id=ELUpwER8,discussion-id=PKZQhYk8,comment-id=0004,timestamp=2018-08-27T03:51:40.672+0000)

These are nice and I want to make a comment specifically for Frostfang. It would be nice if the passive quest gold were upped a tiny bit or the amount needed was lowered to compete with Coin. I'm often running around so it makes completing it slightly difficult and, if not for that, I can't properly proc the "hit target with abilities" in cases where we are pushed under tower / dived constantly.

Frostfang is harder to finish, especially if the enemy laner is kicking your ass over and over.

A grand idea, I think, would be rip out the health part of it (why does it have it anyway? Like, why, you don't build much in the way of defenses in the first place. No, item 3157 does not count thanks to lethality, but that's a different discussion entirely) and instead up the mana regen part and adding maybe 10 more AP on it? Either that or up the CDR another couple.

I think the ruby crystal is mostly a left over remnant from the sight stein build path tbh.

In general, the quests are kind of hit or miss now for me since I can't seem to consistently get them. Sometimes it'll be the 10 minute mark, sometimes I won't finish it until 15 which makes me somewhat miss Sightstone. If the minigame wasn't a hassle, I think that could be improved.

That's just an unfortunate side effect of Frostfang's nature. If you're doing well and kicking ass you'll finish at 8 min in. If your ADC DC's you'll be lucky to finish by 25 thanks to the minion penalty crippling proc charges.

As for Targon, I only want this to say: Screw ever taking that item as every ADC now seems to have forgotten how it works and I'll find myself finishing that thing 20 minutes in. Like, seriously LET ME HIT THE CANNON /minirant.

Oh frick yes. This so much. It's just an unfortunate truth, especially in Bronze and Silver, that relic users simply will not be getting any CS once your team starts competing to see who can one shot minion waves the fastest past 20 min. Even when there's no actual need to do so. (Then they'll tell you to stfu because "Supports don't need gold anyways". I guess Knight's Vow just magically appears in my inventory or something.)

Wolfalisk3181 votes

I personally don't like the fact that item 3098 is essentially a high-risk all-in item where you can complete it insanely quickly, but if your lane is even or you're losing lane, it's not getting completed until >20 minutes.

The mediocrity of the item's stats doesn't align well with the fact that unless you crush your lane, your team doesn't have vision for 22 minutes.

The item needs to be more reliable or it needs to be substantially stronger. One or the other.

Makimoke1 votes

{quoted}

I personally don't like the fact that item 3098 is essentially a high-risk all-in item where you can complete it insanely quickly, but if your lane is even or you're losing lane, it's not getting completed until >20 minutes.

The mediocrity of the item's stats doesn't align well with the fact that unless you crush your lane, your team doesn't have vision for 22 minutes.

The item needs to be more reliable or it needs to be substantially stronger. One or the other.

No, even when you can complete it on the second back, you'd rather go for better offensive/defensive items like Luden/Athene/Zhonya.

This item is also the fastest of all support items to finish quest with. 10/20 gold for 1 auto? With things like Karma/Rakan you do all procs in less than a second, leading to 30/60 gold in an instant. You even get the bonus on tower hits! And even when you're being crushed, the latest you'll get it is 15 minutes, unlike Targon when you literally can't get near creeps and ADC (or mid when you roam) does not let you hit cannon.

The worst time I had with Spellthief on a crushed lane was around 14 minutes, and the best I had with a good ADC/jungle was around 9 minutes. For Targon, I had 30 minutes and the best I could have was 14 with a REALLY good ADC and roams with Blitz. I mostly avoid coin as I don't have mana problems in this meta with my supports, and those who can use coin are often best used with Spellthief/Targon. (So this makes me thinking coin maybe needs a lil' buff?)

So no, it does not need that much reliability or strong points early on. It's only the Tier 3 that just sucks. The fact that all Tier 3 support items lost their utility active was a really big blow to all of them. FotM lost a shield, Queen's lost the slow that got put in ANOTHER ITEM (which nobody builds consistently now as League is now the League of speedy bois, slow resistance, Tenacity and through-wall dashing and it'll take another slot, which was the thing Riot was SUPPOSED TO HAVE FIXED), and coin, well, lost its speed buff, which also got put in ANOTHER ITEM (really now...?).

As for how to fix them, the first thing would be to fix the stats like OP said. However, this will just put them in a "Well, might as well finish this while I'm at it" than a "I have to build this, this is one of my core items" state.

TomiMan71 votes

With things like Karma/Rakan you do all procs in less than a second, leading to 30/60 gold in an instant.

And how exactly do you do that?

Makimoke1 votes

{quoted}

And how exactly do you do that?

Karma : E > Walk up to the thing you want to punish Q > AA > W.

Rakan : W > Q > AA > E away.

TomiMan74 votes

Yeah you dont really play support do you? If this was so easy, everyone would buy spelltiefs and every user would have their sightstone before the 8 minute mark.

This is not the case.

Makimoke1 votes

{quoted}

Yeah you dont really play support do you? If this was so easy, everyone would buy spelltiefs and every user would have their sightstone before the 8 minute mark.

This is not the case.

What the heck are you talking about? I'm a main support (although lately I've been running away from the botlane because of how bs things are).

Of course this is dependant on situations, if you're on a good laning phase or not, if your ADC has a brain or not, etc, etc. But these things are the easiest of them all to pull off.

Karma with her E has a MS boost that lets her get in, get out easily, while taking less damage from poke, which is crucial for her harrass. When you don't use it, it's used on the ADC anyway, which lets THEM poke. Even if you can't do the whole combo, R > Q has a disgustingly big AoE, as well as the "new" Q splash range, which lets you hit even when there's a ton of minions to protect them (of course, without killing said minions as best as you can for ADC).

Rakan has the get out of jail fr E E. So you go in, you do your combo, get out if the ADC does not follow, or follow the ADC and all-in. It's the whole point of the character. And I'm even talking pre-6. At 6 you don't even need to AA to get your full stacks of spellthief. But you'll still AA anyway to get the most of it.

Illabethe1 votes

I have over 8 million combined support mastery, and I can testify this is NOT as easy as it sounds. In a good game you simply can't walk up on Karma or Rakan and poke. Most lanes will punish that behavior hard, and it will attract consistent jungler ganks from the other team.

It works in some exchanges... like an Ashe adc and some short range support who uses a Relic. But normally, it's just now how it happens. Karma W-ing draws minion aggro, which puts her at major risk. And if she's not blocked by minions, Q should suffice. Either way, there's serious risk involved.... of wasting skills.... or taking large sums of damage.

Rakan dies if he does what you just suggested.

Hibeki1 votes

stats mediocre

110% gold efficiency in all desirable stats

22gp10

yea you keep telling yourself that.

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