Conqueror vs Fervor

Elohaven··19 votes·10,203 views

I feel Fervor was one of the healthiest - most balanced mastery or part of League I ever saw when it comes to the runes/mastery system and item synergy.

Most champions I see using Cleaver can't really use Conqueror too well in fights because burst/damage is so high that extended trades aren't needed and when Conqueror is in fights - it's mostly being used in the wrong places or times.

I think it would be better to design Conqueror more to the old Fervor. I wonder why Riot ditched Fervor in the first place. It wasn't a bad rune and pretty fair. Just because true damage is simpler to understand doesn't mean it should be given to everyone and is healthier.

The issue with Conqueror is that you have to constantly be in combat for 4 seconds which is usually death for most champions now. Let's say you were in combat with camps or minions - tanks can't do anything because everyone has true damage and will get melted too fast while armor is practically null in value.

Conqueror allows bruisers to carry in botlane though to a degree - so I commend its success there.

I would like a mix of the two. If true damage allows bruisers to come bot and do an ADC's job to melt tanks, that's really cool. However, I want it to be more practical. Rather than 4 seconds in combat on minions, I want extended trades on champions only as Conqueror is aimed to replace Fervor. I want maybe something along:

  • For each second in combat you have attacked an enemy champion, a X%-X% of your attacks are converted to true damage.

For tanks to even do their jobs right, I think the health nerfs in season 7 and 8 to items should be analyzed for rollback possibility. Some items could get health added or buffed too. What about:

  • A late-game item buffing a percentage of your bonus health.

It could be a new Warmog's instead. Carries/damage dealers can't use this because they'd lose damage in this fiesta of who bursts who.

27 Comments

OtterlyLost4 votes

Except it's not conqueror letting bruisers go bot; bruisers aren't half as good there as mages are. The thing letting bruisers go bot are the fact that ADCs are over nerfed.

Conqueror should straight up be removed and turned into fervor instead. Why they didn't just put fervor in as the keystone for bruisers over either pta or conqueror I will never know.

Ralanr3 votes

Maybe cause of Irelia’s new passive.

Also that fervor doesn’t really follow how most keystones work. You either get immediate power (comet, aery, klepto) for completing a requirement, power after a ramp up (grasp, conquerer, electrocute, dark harvest, press the attack, lethal tempo, etc) or some utility focused effect (guardian, aery, spellbook).

Fervor grants power as it goes up and keeps getting stronger up to a certain point. Plus the only reason it was good for bruisers was the flat AD it provided to help with not only autos, but also early scaling abilities.

Need Gold 4 Tent5 votes

the difference was some champs had the ability to insta-stack fervor, like jax aa-W-titanic = full stacks, or renek aa-W. conqueror doesn't have that issue as everyone needed the 4s.

Ralanr4 votes

Imo that makes it sound like conquerer is more balanced than fervor. Though it benefits fighters less.

Need Gold 4 Tent4 votes

Actually, I'd argue it benefits them even more. A typical fighter is also a splitpusher, and will be "in-combat" with minions for most part, this further cements that identity because any champ coming to stop the split will be facing a bruiser with a stacked conqueror right off the bat.

LordGeovanni1 votes

And any bruiser comming to stop anyone else wont have it ready.

Elohaven1 votes

Let's say we followed my rune suggestion for Conqueror - it'd even the playing field as everyone would still need the same amount of seconds in combat to fight - you just get rewards faster than the current Conqueror but slower than the old Fervor.

OtterlyLost2 votes

{quoted}

Maybe cause of Irelia’s new passive.

Also that fervor doesn’t really follow how most keystones work. You either get immediate power (comet, aery, klepto) for completing a requirement, power after a ramp up (grasp, conquerer, electrocute, dark harvest, press the attack, lethal tempo, etc) or some utility focused effect (guardian, aery, spellbook).

Fervor grants power as it goes up and keeps getting stronger up to a certain point. Plus the only reason it was good for bruisers was the flat AD it provided to help with not only autos, but also early scaling abilities.

Maybe that should be changed then because the way current keystones work is terrible. Fervor also does fit with the "ramp up" you described. It literally got stronger then longer you were in combat.

I also feel like Lethal Tempo would benefit more from the fervor style; were instead of just activating upon your first AA, it worked like Fervor or Guinsoos and granted a percentage of AS the longer you fought. In its current iteration, its just flat out terrible.

Ralanr2 votes

Except ramp up keystones don’t get their benefit till the end. Fervor gets a benefit constantly.

Netorare2 votes

Fervor of Battle was the rune bruisers wanted not that stupid Conqueror

Thefrostyviking2 votes

"Bruisers" didnt want anything, for that class has no members or rather, doesnt exist in league.

Do think for a moment.

If you try to balance Irelia, darius and Renekton around a single keystone you´ll have nothing but a damn mess of a balance problem.

You cant nerf the rune because there are balanced users.......like 30 or more?

You cant nerf the users because that kills their options to use other runes.

That is the true dilemma of fervor, the pure AD was either just "alright" or broken on others, which made balance and variance (difference between games) impossible to have at the same time.

Even with 100 champions played you´d still end up having like 2 rune pages used and a handful of items, that is low variance and something we want to avoid.

So while runes are causing problems for balance, riots act of dividing champions into classes does make balancing easier as it helps define a champions role, how they do it is their identity.

Dont go using a term like "bruiser" that is basically a mix of tanks, skirmishers (jax, fiora, trynda), divers (irelia,wukong,vi) and juggernauts(shyv, darius, garen and morde)

Trying to balance all those together in a single mix isnt just impossible, its ridiculous to even think about it.

Troll for Trump1 votes

He means juggernauts. The rune was supposed to be for juggernauts, and to a lesser degree skirmishers but the opposite happened.

Thefrostyviking1 votes

The rune was for melee toplaners getting runover by tanks because they could not damage said tanks through aftershock.

70 armor and 70 MR for doing a bit of hard CC at lvl 1, anyone?

That means it was meant for juggernauts/divers and skirmishers at all once.

And it truly did do its job, making melee be able to beat tanks.......its just created another set of issue´s because when the winning side is decided by damage then skirmishers tend to win almost every time as they are specialized in 1v1´s.

Well them and some like renekton, irelia and Darius who happen to either be good at 1v1´s due to their kit or good post laning

Troll for Trump1 votes

But no skirmishers had issues with tanks. Divers weren't meant to use the rune because they don't generally go into extended fights.

Thefrostyviking1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Ðownright Darius,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=l86rKsjh,comment-id=00010000000000000000,timestamp=2018-06-24T22:43:47.548+0000)

But no skirmishers had issues with tanks. Divers weren't meant to use the rune because they don't generally go into extended fights.

At some point i think most skirmishers aside from Fiora had the issue that tanks could actually just stand on them, take the damage and kill the skirmishers first in lane because base damage+tankiness.

Then just beat the skirmisher in a teamfight because tanks are good like that.

That was a thing that was very noticeable in pro games, it had been ongonig for ages there and often in soloq too.

Rouwhorst1 votes

X%-X%

Now hold on there, that's not how you use variables! Surely you meant to type X%-Y%.

That aside, I dislike the true damage trend as it devalues armor and its counterpart reduction. When you deal less physical damage, although more true damage, Black Cleaver essentially becomes less useful. Or conversely, when you have shred a lot of armor off your opponent, Conqueror won't be as impactful when you haven't. Conqueror and Black Cleaver have sort of an anti-synergy which adds to the point that BC users do not make great use of Conqueror.

Elohaven1 votes

True damage can't be reduced or increased.

Its counterpart is health.

Rouwhorst1 votes

I guess you focus on the "counterpart" word I used? Read the whole comment again and read instead of "its counterpart reduction", " its counterpart: armor reduction".

Troll for Trump1 votes

New Keystone: JuggerCrutch

For every second in combat with champions (DoT exception. Cuz Darius), gain 1 stack of JuggerCrutch (stacks up to 4)

Each stack of Juggercrutch gives:

Adaptive Base AD/BonusAP: + 1-6 (increases every 2 lvls, caps at lvl 12) Bonus MS: + 1-9 (increases every 2 lvls up to lv 10) At 4 stacks (4 sec in combat w/ champs):

If melee, become "Belligerent"

Gain 10 +(1% Health from items ) Adaptive Bonus AD/AP Doesn't include bonus health from passives or actives Don't know which tree it should be in, but thinking resolve. Bonus MS helps with sticking to targets, which is what Juggernauts struggle with. Tenactiy would also help, but runes for those already exist. Juggernauts would love the speedboost from phase rush, but most juggernauts can't land 3 spells within a super short time frame to trigger it. Ideally, juggernauts shouldn't have an issue staying in combat. Because the movement speed builds up in combat, it encourages users to stay in combat rather than using it as a sudden ms rush to escape like phase rush is sometimes used for.

I was originally going to set the scaling to increase every 3 levels, but I feel games end too fast at the current moment for that. Additionally, most juggernauts fall off lategame.

Skirmishers won't really like the keystone a lot because 34 bonus AD (no true AP skirmishers yet) as a reward for staying in combat for 4 seconds really doesn't do much for any of them. The movement speed is nice, but skirmishers tend to not have issues sticking to targets, so it's superfluous.

By making the bonus stats only partially scale with health doesn't fully disincentivize experimentation, but makes the keystone a lot better if you're actually building tank items.

Obviously, making the stats scale in combat makes the keystone not super good for bursty champs. By limiting the combat to champions, the keystone isn't literally just giving free stats.

Because the stats are in-combat rather than based on autoattacks like fervor, the keystone is open to more than just aa-reliant champs.

The stacks would build up as Juggernauts are being poked; I don't know if that part is fair because poking and kiting are supposed to be a Juggernaut's weakness, but it's also what keeps most of them trash tier. Could be fixed by changing "in combat with champions" to "Dealing dmg to champions (excluding DoT)"

The amount of bonus AD received from the health scaling is 0-1 Adaptive when champs first enter lane (Doran start = .8) , about 2 AD after 1st back (~ 5 min) with ruby crystal+doran, about 4 AD at lvl 8ish (1st full item complete, ~ 9 min), 8 AD at lvl 12ish (2 items, ~15 min), 12 AD at lvl 14( 3 items, ~20 min)

So, this should amount to:

|Level------- |Stacks Adaptive Bonus| --- |Belligerent Adaptive Bonus| --------- |Bonus MS at 4 Stacks| |- |1| 4| |10+1| |4| |2| 4| |10+1| |4| |3| 8| |10+1| |8| |4| 8| |10+2| |8| |5| 12| |10+2| |8| |6| 12| |10+2| |12| |7| 16| |10+2| |12| |8| 16| |10+2| |16| |9| 20| |10+4| |16| |10| 20| |10+4| |20| |11| 24| |10+5| |20| |12| 24| |10+8| |20| |13| 24| |10+9| |20| |14| 24| |10+10| |20| |15| 24| |10+10| |20| |16| 24| |10+13| |20| |17| 24| |10+17| |20| |18| 24| |10+varies| |20|

So it winds up being fervor with slightly less AD compensated by ms that incentives tanky builds.

The restrictions on bonus health being from item stats prevent cinderhulk from warping it, but also prevents health stacking from abilities being a problem (Sion, Cho in particular).

I don't think pure tanks will want these stats on them, but I'm not a tank player.

The AD/AP stat splits are for future Juggernauts and Mordekaiser, though I don't think Morde would like this keystone. I don't really play morde much, though. The only concern with leaving Adaptive Ap are the tank AP assassins (Fizz and Ekko), because there's no "base AP" stat. Making the stats only AD might be necessary because of that.


You don't need conqueror to botlane. Morde and Wuk (Wuk's more of an assassin though) are examples. Conqueror is just too good of an option on many champs to pass up (compared to alternatives). For example: Conqueror outshines anything else Yas can get; Conqueror outshines anything else Irelia can get. Apparantly people really like conqueror on renekton and darius as well for both bot AND top. But they don't need conqueror to be able to go bot. They don't need true damage. Darius shouldn't even be getting conqueror with natural % armor pen.

LordGeovanni1 votes

I disagree with your statement on fervor I do agree with this 'The issue with Conqueror is that you have to constantly be in combat for 4 seconds which is usually death for most champions now.' because Defenses are trash And damage in general is broken crit mage damage (they are supposed to do moderate damage as BURST MAGES not that there is any distinction between mages) true damage and % damage are especially Broken also your thing benifits Marksmen not bruisers as they can attack more than once per second

Elohaven1 votes

It doesn't because it only increases once every second. This stops abuse cases such as Renekton or auto-resetting champions from stacking it faster and getting a huge advantage.

For each second in combat you have attacked an enemy champion, a X%-X% of your attacks are converted to true damage.

LordGeovanni1 votes

It does stop faster stacking but it also makes it better for people who attack more times per second than those who attack less or even more so than ones who attack several times persecond on a long cooldown window.

Elohaven1 votes

It makes it worse for them since they can't stack it faster.

In general, those who are attacking more usually have an advantage because of DPS. Old Fervor supported this much more.

LordGeovanni1 votes

You are making an argument that old fervor was better for those with faster attack speed. This is true but i does not make that your version is also better for those with more attack speed untrue.

Elohaven1 votes

Can you clarify that last bit?

This is true but i does not make that your version is also better for those with more attack speed untrue.

If you mean that I'm saying my change was to be better for those with more attack speed, I disagree. My change is to level the playing field of the Conqueror rune and find a middle ground between the two. Currently, Conqueror supports snowballing and dominating your opponent. Old Fervor also doesn't allow bruisers to go botlane to shred tanks due to true damage and also was just better for those AA resets or more attack speed. Thus, a middle ground is to make the rune like Fervor mechanically, but offer true damage and only periodically increase its damage output as fights go on as the rune is for extended trades.

Wild Geese1 votes

Conqueror is good though, why replace it with something like Fervor??..

Better keystones to be replaced with fervor: Lethal Tempo Hail of blades.

True Garen1 votes

Conqueror is being changed to work like old Fervor of Battle.

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