Whats are the Rioters stance on Riven Functionality and Mechanical wise?

La Bello··11 votes·2,273 views

Id figure from the average player standpoint the play above and those like it might be a neat reward for "champion mastery" but from an actual non biased balance standpoint isnt this an absolute nightmare?

BURNING QUESTIONS How can you accurately gauge when Rivens weak or when shes strong when only the top % can use her to the fullest potential? If Rivens inspiration was of Marth then is Animation canceling the "wavedashing" that separates the god Marths from the mediocre? does something like that even belong in a game like this? Is the constant risk of missing out on a kill because you didnt tiamat combo correctly or didnt quick combo fast enough more trouble than its worth? Was animation canceling the ultimate reason the Edge rework got canned? Because Riven already has so much hidden power and potential is she un-reworkable? Is Q>move>AA X3 "true skill" or needlessly convoluted?

Why has the "quick combo" not recieved any functionality changes similar to the 6.15 Nidalee changes? I mean Riots aware of it theyve commented on it in the past. At one point it was going to be automatic and alot of people were scared that it would send Riven over the top(https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UrKPjBeJY1c and https://youtu.be/xvNFvLdWxT0 ). To add Isnt it a bit unhealthy that item 3077 isnt a "powerspike" but rather a buyable " Buff" of sorts that feels near mandatory?Khazix had his tiamat privleges taken away when he was found guilty of doing EXACTLY WHAT RIVEN DOES WITH IT(canceling animations to add more burst in a shorter amount of time) so what about Riven? why is she an outlier to this treatment?

Miracles to Calamity and the sand king I remember listening to a podcast or stream I think when Rioters were talking about Azir and how one the things that make him so hard to balance was his "shurima shuffle" play. It started off as a glitch but because they really enjoyed the interaction they didnt remove it and now it feels like a core part of his kit however the PROBLEM that it wrought was that it essentially let Azir be a jack of all trades. As time went on and it became more noticable how much gross power it added to his kit and how it clashed with the initial role of the character but due to how Iconic the play is it sort of entered an "untouchable" state Where if Riot were to remove it they would recieve severe backlash . My theory is that this is fundamentally the same problem with Rivens animation canceling. It started off as cool interaction that slowly began to assimilate the character and now animation canceling IS Riven and this worries me. I absolutely whole heartedly refuse to belive that riot ever intended this wierd form of neo glitch abuse to be core to learning this character( its not even mentioned in the spotlight).I don't think Riot intended for you to be able to artificially increase your damage output through higher apm. Riven's q is currently unique in the fact that it is the only skill in the game where you can artificially increase your dps, through more apm, while not resulting in any clear gameplay decisions/counterplay offered to the enemy.

**Winrate and Playrates are only a side to the balancing Triangle **

I bring this up because A while back in a playtest stream(I believe it was RiotDon and Riot Aesah) I inquired to some rioters on the state of Riven and they replied with "her [Riven] winrate is sub 50% and shes not played in competitive but people dont like playing against her so Id say shes in a pretty good spot right now.....shes fun to play and players enjoy her" with led me to believe that Riot currently has zero plans for Riven or thinks she is perfectly acceptable in her current format I need some clarity on if this is the case and Riven really will retain her animation canceling glitch until the end of days or am I jumping to wrong conclusions.

"Riven" and her more Dangerous Doppleganger

I think Riven has always been Riots problem child even though she retains a very loyal (and vocal) fanbase but I think its time we bit the bullet and brought her inline with current design and balance philosophy because as of right now Riot is essentially balancing two seperate versions of Riven - one exceptional assassin who does her combo in just over a second, and a slow, lumbering assassin who takes around 3 seconds to do her combo (either because they don't have high enough ping, they don't have the mechanical skill to press that quickly, or they don't realize it's even POSSIBLE to animation cancel Riven to that extent). You shouldn't get THAT much of a difference in quality because one player has better ping or is more willing to fight against Riven's terrible controls to get more out of her kit and it's a huge level of invisible power.

P.S before immediatly hitting that donwvote button please try to critically look at the state of the character without bia's. I feel like this is a very important crossroad in the direction Riven will go and requires as much player (both veteran and new) input as possible.

19 Comments

Hyrum Graff3 votes

Wall of text. Did not read. Add some formatting in, preferably including shorter paragraphs and some section titles, and I'll be able to get through this.


As for the video in particular, I see a level 12 Annie with no ult or passive chasing a level 13 riven with all her cooldowns who seems to be in her power spike. I see Annie continue to walk towards Riven when riven ults and turns.

Is Riven's animation canceling fair and balanced? Debatable. Is this video good evidence? I don't think so.

La Bello1 votes

took some of your advice and added some formating. care to add why you think the video is not good evidence for dangers of animation cancling?

Nanuk Pihoqahiak2 votes

Her entire design is balanced around what's essentially a bunch of bugs. That screams unintended, yet Riot is hesitant to make changes currently due to the highest percentile of skilled Riven players saying it's a skillcap.

Anags1 votes

You could say that about the nidalee changes or all other champions where they removed those types of effects.

Epitome of Noob1 votes

What happened? I blinked and I missed it.

La Bello2 votes

If you watch closely she doesnt even get an animation off before she stunned and explodes. Riven has a subtly disgusting kit thats only balanced by human error and ping.

Penns1 votes

Idk, if Annie had her stun Riven wouldve probably died. And Annie doesnt have to play anywhere near as well..

La Bello1 votes

I think youve missed my point. Its a long read and it might seem a bit ranty at points but it might give you more insight to Riven and her current design and kit flaws. Its not about which champ is harder to play but rather is artifically increasing your DPS through higher APM okay and if not why does it continue to exist in the game.

Penns2 votes

I kind of like it. Its unique in a game like League and Riven is the only champ that makes me go "wait.. what did she do there" occasionally even tho Im pretty "good" with her combos myself.

La Bello1 votes

So you would be okay If Riot started adding similar things to other champions ?

For example What if Zed could make his Death mark pop faster by switching around his Item slots but it ONLY worked if you switched them around mid ult animation.

do you think it would be a fair change that would accurately cull the wheat from the chaff?

Penns1 votes

Well that would just be a buff (a pretty weird one lel) and wouldnt be nearly as fun and satisfying as animation canceling. And Im pretty sure RIven was and is balanced around it.

La Bello1 votes

nope Animation canceling was or is essentially an exploit discovered by accident and never fixed then was changed to something intentional Or was atleast acknowledged or acts as a black sheep of sorts . You should NOT need to abuse riots code to be efficient on a champion.

Penns2 votes

Hm... I still like it tho. Its not like you automatically win every fight if you animation cancel perfect, that Olaf is probably still just gonna run over you.

Apocalypsic1 votes

Personally she's on the weaker side of melee carries.

She doesn't have near the effect that fiora and irelia/etc have in the mid/lategame teamfights and really all it takes is an exhaust or a single source of CC and she instadies.

If you have even the most minute of knowledge about her, she's actually incredibly telegraphed and her gap closers cripple her actual combat ability when used to gapclose.

I love the champ but there definitely is something that could change for her.

La Bello1 votes

Some changes Id love to see on her personally

-A 0.3-0.5 cooldown between Q's to effectively kill the "quick combo" but leave her more basic animation cancels intact (E+R for instance)

-removal of R's execute damage and instead having R become a "charge and release" ability like Vi or Xerath Q to determine which damage values you get for less SUPRISE burst -prehaps take another look at the "Edge" resource and how it modifies drawn out fights as opposed to short trades -Give her the Khazix treatment when it comes to item 3074 (no more using it mid animation)

I think these things would solidify her as a high damage fighter ( I believe Riot calls them Slayers or Skirmishers) rather than a wierd snowball assassin that Relys on ki-burst-Tiamat-execute combos

Apocalypsic3 votes

[{quoted}](name=Nicole Watterson,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=l6njT12q,comment-id=00020000,timestamp=2016-07-28T16:14:31.774+0000)

Some changes Id love to see on her personally

-A 0.3-0.5 cooldown between Q's to effectively kill the "quick combo" but leave her more basic animation cancels intact (E+R for instance)

-removal of R's execute damage and instead having R become a "charge and release" ability like Vi or Xerath Q to determine which damage values you get -prehaps take another look at the "Edge" resource and how it modifies drawn out fights as opposed to short trades -Give her the Khazix treatment when it comes to item 3074 (no more using it mid animation)

I think these things would solidify her as a high damage fighter ( I believe Riot calls them Slayers or Skirmishers) rather than a wierd snowball assassin

If you kill the fast Q and remove her execute and synergy with tiamat active, then you'll have to literally buff her across the board. I'm talking every ability, because that would be such a hard nerf on a champ that already has a tough time.

Everything you're suggesting are straight up nerfs, nothing to do with solidifying her place as a skirmisher.

What I mean by changes are things that allow her to actually perform her role, like how fiora for instance can reposte CC.

La Bello1 votes

First off I honestly fail to see how turning her Execute into a charge ability is a nerf. If anything its a huge buff to her Teamfight potential because now she can get a max damage windslash off on multiple targets as opposed of waiting for them to be sub 30% hp which could easily cost your window of opportunity .

Second I did include to take another look at the Edge resource. If charging your blade gave you bonus damage then that could easily be a buff to prolonged encounter and nerf to short trades and maybe an across the board buff to Riven .It would also help clarify Rivens windows of power.

Third Riven doesnt need a Riposte like Fiora because her strength is her mobility and low CD valor shielding. Combine that with the knockup from 3rd Q and ki burst shes already a very disrupting duelist in her own right with great sticking power.

As of right now Tiamat feels more like a forced crutch you simply have to get the Item because of its animation canceling properties If you remove that angle then Rivens build path is alot more flexible as It the only "Core" to it becomes capping your CDR.

If you remove Rivens ability to assassinate targets via animation canceling and reward her for prolonged trades then she will of course become the fighter she was intended to be.

ExileSword1 votes

"First off I honestly fail to see how turning her Execute into a charge ability is a nerf" you really don't see how?let me remind you that her missile speed on ult got nerfed some time ago to add some counterplay from that day any experienced top laner will flash sideways to avoid your ult for how predictible it became which led most riven mains to keep their stun for ulting,,,and now what you're suggesting is making her ult even more predictible you don't really get how important it is if you miss your windslash against for exp a darius,irelia,olaf... it means losing lane and hoping to get carried by your team and playing as a secondary support who peels for the carries

Astôlfo1 votes

no.

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