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Thornmail and Ohmwrecker: Why must they be so... awkward?

darkdill··33 votes·2,413 views

Thornmail doesn't tend to work as well as it should because you need both bonus armor AND magic penetration for it to work well, and tanks can't really get the latter stat. This leads to scenarios where the enemy ADC gets a item 3139 and then your thorns damage stops working against them, especially if they follow it up with lifesteal. For instance, I was once a Malphite with 500 armor and a Thornmail, and the Vayne who was attacking me didn't even feel any thorns damage. I'm not saying I should've SURVIVED Vayne's DPS (no one should), but the fact that she wasn't getting beat up in the process infuriated me.

Then we have Ohmwrecker. Its active requires an extremely narrow window of opportunity to be useful, and in all other cases it's just an inferior item 3742 item 3143 item 3068 . The active only works when your enemies are camping an active turret, and that generally requires that your team is ahead. But if your team is ahead, odds are you're destroying those towers easily anyways. And for diving purposes, the aforementioned 3 items are generally better, giving you better benefits in the long run. Once your enemies run out of turrets to disable, Ohmwrecker becomes little better than a low-quality stat stick.

The worst part? Riot seems content to let these two items rot in the back of the shopkeepers' wagons. I've submitted to Ask Riot about them, and made topics about them, but Rioters seem instructed to ignore any talk about these items.

#What's up with that?

52 Comments

gileskd10 votes

I asked Rammus if he thought thornmail was in a good place at the moment he told me it was ok

FantasySniper4 votes

Thing is that unless you have an armor steroid, you're not picking it up.

That just leaves Taric Rammus Malphite Poppy

gileskd2 votes

id leave taric out, his reworked mega nurfed him in order to deal dmg you have to build ad :( rip full tank taric

NineTailedMystic5 votes

What. Taric is the king of extended fights as long as he has mana. Sure he can't burst people like old Taric, but if you get on an ADC and have Iceborn they probably die or Flash.

FantasySniper1 votes

I'm confused by these statements, because as a mastery 7 Taric, he's definitely capable of dealing damage when building purely tank.

I mean, his damage scales with armor.

gileskd1 votes

the only things that scale with his armor is his passive auto attacks and his e at 459 armor his auto passive attacks deal +56 bonus magic dmg at 459 armor his e does +111 magic dmg

sure he does "some damage" but not as much as the old taric

FantasySniper1 votes

Old Taric did less, the only advantage in damage he had was from his ult.

gileskd1 votes

oh no no no, he did way more damage, and even faster

if taric does more damage I should be able to take him top or jungle again right? if I take him top again, which lane matchup would I win? tryndamere? nasus? rumble? kennan? trundle? ramus? malphite? darius? jayce? yasuo? renekton? kayle? ryze? singed? atrox?

I await your reply

Pierce The Veal1 votes

{quoted}

I asked Rammus if he thought thornmail was in a good place at the moment he told me it was ok

He still misses the old version though.

Dark Nephthys9 votes

Yea probably the 2 weakest items in the game, or at least the 2 most situational items and even in the situation for it, doesn't do well. Thornmail does have it's uses for AD champions who auto attack but doesn't build a lot of life steal, it's useful for that a little bit.

Honestly, this is how I'd fix these items...

item 3075 Increase the 15% damage reflect to 20%, and apply Grievous wounds for like 1 second (Long enough to make it harder for them to life steal through it instantly)

item 3056 +100 HP Active: Can be used on your Turret to increase the Damage (Or Attack speed if that is more balanced) by X Amount (I guess 20-30% is a safe start).

That's what I'd do, though I could see the active change idea being to strong, in which case maybe increasing the stats a little more or decreasing it's cost/CD or something would do. Honestly, though...the stats is kind of what I feel is holding this item back more than the situational active.

DrCyanide2 votes

An ally tower effected by Ohmwrecker should fire multiple shots at once at a faster speed. Have it facilitate tower dives if purchased offensively, and punish tower dives if used defensively.

Ohmwrecker also has the problem that the number of places you can use it diminishes the longer the game goes on, so it could benefit from getting an Azir tower like active.

FourVsFive4 votes

If thornmail Applied GW for 2sec to champions that auto I think it be pretty good if you ask me.

darkdill4 votes

No, the issue with that is it'd weaken supports, in that they wouldn't be able to heal their allies through the damage. It should instead be a unique passive that simply reduces the effectiveness of lifesteal against you if you're wearing Thornmail. This way, it wouldn't make Soraka cry more.

Oglaf3 votes

The fact that Lifesteal is a stat in this game means that an item like item 3075 is never ever going to work.

Elisheva2 votes

{quoted}

The fact that Lifesteal is a stat in this game means that an item like item 3075 is never ever going to work.

It negates their lifesteal a small bit while you fight them.

FantasySniper1 votes

Unless you have at the very least 30% lifesteal, you're never out-healing Thornmail...

Oglaf1 votes

{quoted}

Unless you have at the very least 30% lifesteal, you're never out-healing Thornmail...

Which any ADC worth their salt definitely has.

Elisheva1 votes

{quoted}

Unless you have at the very least 30% lifesteal, you're never out-healing Thornmail...

replied to the wrong person familia.

Spoofghoul3 votes

item 3056 Nobody really buys it. Because it feels bad to buy it. It just doesn't feel like it has any impact.

But why is that? Well it is not it's stats, it is the only armor item which has health & cdr & health regeneration all stats you like to get as a tank. The point runner passive is great too,

It is the active, the active feels really bad. You hardly ever get to use it and the times you can use it, you probably don't really needed too.

Its like buying an item with an active with no active which feels strange at best but mostly it just feels bad.

It kind of feels like buying item 3143 but then instead of it's active just slowing nearby enemies, it now only slows if enemies have higher level then you. which makes it useless if ahead, like ohmwrecker, and lategame when you hit level 18, or in ohmwreckers case when almost all turrets are dead, and those which aren't are killed with 2 basic attacks or tanked for 17 years.

item 3056 active is useless in almost any situation even where it is supposed to be useful and gets progressively more useless and it doesn't help when it's cooldown lasts into the next 4 games either, and you cannot even buy it on multiple guys to to cheese people by using it in succession to render a turret incapacitated for like 10 seconds not even that.

You can rush it, but then the other guy gets a sunfire cape and can also easily turret dive becuase of the stats, hell even with ohmwreckers stats you can turret dive so it renders it's own active obsolete . . .

It needs a better active period!

Ok that is it for the ohm wrecker is useless rant let's get on with active idea's please do post your own suggestions, i will post my ideas here now.

Active idea 1 Ohm wreckers active should be an aoe effect. something like randuins It still disables turrets if you hit them with the aoe effect But the aoe also grounds enemy targets and deals damage based on tank stats (also damages structures) Short/medium cooldown 30-60 seconds depending on strength of the active, grounded duration/damage.

( alternatively this could be turned into a passive effect where you build up charges when taking damage & moving and on your next attack/spell cast discharge the aoe effect, damaging & disabling turrets and damaging & grounding enemies)

Active idea 2

Still a point and click effect which disables turrets, but can now also link you to your own turret allowing you to absorb a decent portion of the damage it takes and in return make the turret benefit from your base attack damage.

So basically boost your turret's power during a dive by amping up it's damage or making you adsorb a portion of it's damage taken during a siege. Damaging a turret will thus also damage you, and therefor make the turret target the person who damaged you.

You can also use it on enemy champions to ground them and slow their attack speed for a short duration which scales with defensive stats.

It has a short/medium cooldown 30-60 seconds

Ok those are my idea's to make item 3056 feel like a better buy, i actually really like the charge up passive idea the most personally, let me know your opinions and idea's

Oglaf2 votes

Having **Thornmail **covered in rusty and disgusting spikes that inflicts Grievous Wounds is an interesting idea, but I doubt it would fix the problem, because only a mentally challenged ADC would not get any form of Lifesteal and it just hard-counters it sooo hard.

Dark Nephthys3 votes

{quoted}

Having **Thornmail **covered in rusty and disgusting spikes that inflicts Grievous Wounds is an interesting idea, but I doubt it would fix the problem, because only a mentally challenged ADC would not get any form of Lifesteal and it just hard-counters it sooo hard.

Yea I'd feel it would help it a little bit but you're right that it wouldn't exactly solve it's feeling of being useless. I wouldn't really know what else to suggest other than making Thornmail disable the target from life stealing off of them all together which would most likely be way way to OP. In most cases, Adc's would also build a lot of Attack Speed and Crit with their life steal so item 3143 would just be the way better option over Thorn.

I guess Thornmail's stats going up wouldn't be to terrible idea, that way you would actually feel a bit more tanky and could make it feel like a better 2nd/3rd item, instead of late game (Besides for champions that could do fine with getting it early, like Rammus )

Lohenngramm1 votes

{quoted}

Having **Thornmail **covered in rusty and disgusting spikes that inflicts Grievous Wounds is an interesting idea, but I doubt it would fix the problem, because only a mentally challenged ADC would not get any form of Lifesteal and it just hard-counters it sooo hard.

Grievous wounds is the counter to all forms of sustain, including life steal. It reduces all healing by 40%.

1wolfpack1 votes

both those items are pretty dated atm, and need some changes you are correct. ohmwrecker was a decent pickup once upon a time if your game plan was split pushing ala trick2G style. I dont think I have ever built thorn mail so I wont comment on it.

Critmaster Garen1 votes

{quoted}

both those items are pretty dated atm, and need some changes you are correct. ohmwrecker was a decent pickup once upon a time if your game plan was split pushing ala trick2G style. I dont think I have ever built thorn mail so I wont comment on it.

ohmwecker was not at any point an item youd ever pick up for its active.

the only time i can remember buying it, was when i faced full ad comps before the introduction of dead mans, to get a full inventory of armor/health items.

it was last buy in an extreme nieche scenario and only for its base stats. ive never used its active even in those situations.

season 5 i actually didnt even buy it against full ad comps. i just picked up a second randuins.

DarkRitual1 votes

I've used Ohmwrecker a few times as Leona. It's definately very niche, but sometimes you DO want it for the active.

Dengeden1 votes

The only problem thornmaill has is the combine cost and its anti-synergy with Warden's Mail. It's a cheap armor heavy item. When the ADC can afford to buy LS over pure damage, you either need to ignore/kite him or you're already insanely behind.

Sunfire's damage falls off too but it's not like it or thornmail's damage disappears. Damage is damage and nullifying LS is worth something too. (You can build Abyssal for magic pen btw)

Ohmwrecker is a niche support item at best, ye

Saianna1 votes

Today I saw Kogmaw AP doing full combo Q-E-R-R on Jinx. She survived with sliver of HP.

Then she started to lifesteal on him. For 150-200.

Obviously Kog lost.

Balanced as fuck.

All I am saying, life steal gone so far into obscene-stupid OP, that it isn't funny anymore.

JackMcSnipeyz3 votes

If she was lifestealing so hard she invested in a lot of life steal. If kog really hit all those skills and she didnt die, he was already weak enough to die to anything really

Saianna1 votes

item 3072

And maybe masteries.

JackMcSnipeyz3 votes

So that means she was probably full build with enouh crit to do well over 1k damage. Either way, sounds like she was fed, and kog was very behind, i play AP kog from times to times myself and E+R and couple auto attacks are enough to kill any squishy.

Spoofghoul1 votes

though she can buy item 3139 item 3111 if needed with more mr from runes and then take warlords she'd still get 10-30% total lifesteal which sounds like more then enough to get on average 150-200 hp per basic hit on that kog

JackMcSnipeyz1 votes

{quoted}

though she can buy item 3139 item 3111 if needed with more mr from runes and then take warlords she'd still get 10-30% total lifesteal which sounds like more then enough to get on average 150-200 hp per basic hit on that kog

He said only BT for life steal. Also if the adc invests so much just to counter AP kog, to the extent of getting magic resist shoes - that means she's weaker than the enemy ADC and any AD champion.

Either way, it's balanced, either she heavily invested just against 1 champ, or kog was bad - which is what i think happened, kog has much more range + huge AoE slow to deley jinx long enough to burst her

Spoofghoul1 votes

yea but jinx can get away with building that and not really lose out vs other marksmen

JackMcSnipeyz1 votes

{quoted}

yea but jinx can get away with building that and not really lose out vs other marksmen

Not really, jinx is all about basic attacks, losing attack speed, crit chance and raw damage hurts her much more than lets say, someone like lucian or Ez. A cait or ashe with normal build will win against her (or any ADC who is AA heavy) if she builds resistances and lifesteal over crit

Mister Modesty1 votes

Are you a Rammus main?

Poske1 votes

Thornmail Is a good item

Specially useful against ezreal yasuo Etc champs

Ohmwrecker is just a gimmick which should be removed

Maybe if it disabled tower on 10 seconds YEAH YOU HEARD THAT FKING RIGHT 10 seconds someone would consider buying it. Oh and it would also need old forfity on allied towers

Oglaf1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Sub HeroCro,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=kw7LcrvV,comment-id=000a,timestamp=2016-11-06T15:07:33.728+0000)

Thornmail Is a good item

Specially useful against ezreal yasuo Etc champs

Ohmwrecker is just a gimmick which should be removed

Maybe if it disabled tower on 10 seconds YEAH YOU HEARD THAT FKING RIGHT 10 seconds someone would consider buying it. Oh and it would also need old forfity on allied towers

Yeah no Thornmail is not a good item against anything. There are much better options such as Randuim or Frozen Heart.

Poske1 votes

Thormail reflects mystic shot and steel tempest

Its the only item which keeps yasuo and ezreal in check

Infact wonna know Why yasuo was ALLOWED to be so overloaded like 1 year ago? BECAUSE thornmail was keeping him from breaking the game

Since thornmail got nerfed so did yasuo winrate spike hence why he got nerfs

Obviously this is not the only reason

Oglaf1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Sub HeroCro,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=kw7LcrvV,comment-id=000a00000000,timestamp=2016-11-07T09:55:20.653+0000)

Thormail reflects mystic shot and steel tempest

Its the only item which keeps yasuo and ezreal in check

Infact wonna know Why yasuo was ALLOWED to be so overloaded like 1 year ago? BECAUSE thornmail was keeping him from breaking the game

Since thornmail got nerfed so did yasuo winrate spike hence why he got nerfs

Obviously this is not the only reason

That's probably more related to neither Yasou nor Ezreal traditionally buying much Lifesteal.

Poske1 votes

True that I even use lifesteal runes on both champions

They have insane synergy with lifesteal but they suck vs thorn

WiegrafOfValor1 votes

TO FIX THORNMAIL JUST ADD GRIEVOUS WOUNDS, BUT ADC MAINS KEEP CRYING ABOUT. THEY WANT TO FOCUS TANKS AND DON'T BE PUNISHED.. CRYING BABIES ALL OF THEM

Zerana1 votes

Thornmail by itself is just a crappier version of dota 2's blademail which does damage reflection right. It reflects ALL damage sources back at the caster or attacker for 10 seconds (or was it 8?) I think it has a 30 second cooldown. This is really how leagues thornmail SHOULD function as it would give tanks windows to reflect back damage in a meaningful way without being broken, as long as the timers on both the cooldown of the item and the duration was tweaked for this game. The stats for the item itself could then be adjusted based on these changes for an active, but it looks like its more likely that thornmail will be removed and Rammus will be buffed before such a thing ever happens. Ohmrecker is just lacking in having a duel purpose, it needs to fortify ally towers as well as disable enemy ones, basically for 4 seconds the tower should be invulnerable and give a tower sheild to nearby allies.

darkdill1 votes

I'd certainly like the Blademail model, but people will claim it'd be useless in the pro scene because of faster reaction times, or broken if it can reflect damage from spells.

Phoenix Kotori 1 votes

The problem was you were fighting Vayne thornmail is rather ineffective vs her because she tends to A. Build item 3153 & B. Has max hp% true damage autos and neither of those things are really hindered by thornmail since they're on-hit damage thus not reflected, you could buff thornmail as much as you want, it will never be a good buy vs Vayne without it being completely broke vs every other AD champion, vs Vayne item 3143 item 3110 will always be the better choice by design.

Also the fervor changes from on-hit to AD is an indirect buff to thornmail since AD on autos gets reflected while the on-hit damage didn't get reflected.

Oglaf1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Phoenix Kotori ,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=kw7LcrvV,comment-id=000d,timestamp=2016-11-06T19:18:12.579+0000)

The problem was you were fighting Vayne thornmail is rather ineffective vs her because she tends to A. Build item 3153 & B. Has max hp% true damage autos and neither of those things are really hindered by thornmail since they're on-hit damage, you could buff thornmail as much as you want, it will never be a good buy vs Vayne without it being completely broke vs every other AD champion, vs Vayne item 3143 item 3110 will always be the better choice by design.

Again, that applies to all ADCS not just Vayne. Thornmail is simply crap tier.

Agent Corgi1 votes

item 3056 If you ask me, I think Riot will look into tuning this item once the Diver Update comes into focus. I normally don't see this item & thought about it once after watching a Zed Top buy it so he could tower dive for kills. It might now have a place now but who knows, maybe it'll be re-purposed like Zeke's Herald was (Zeke's Herald was a AURA-based item that gave your allies 20 AD & 10% Life steal. It was replaced with Zeke's Harbringer item 3050 back in season 5)

Malignant Vemira1 votes

Ohm wrecker isnt niche, you and most people just dont know how to use it. This is a great item for juggernauts running damage through hp with titanic. It allows you to stack armor and hp outside that one offensive item, and if you do dive, and use it correctly, you tank 3 tower hits, so that when you disable it, it has to charge up again. This item is amazing. item 3056 [zombie-nunu-hearts]

Epicanian1 votes

probably because Ohmwrecker is named after some youtuber who doesn't play league at all anymore so they don't want to give him any glory

Shuyin1781 votes

I think Thornmail should work on any non-ranged AD spells AND auto-attacks.

I also feel there also needs to be a Magic Damage equivalent to Thornmail (Thornbarrier?) that scales with MR and deals physical damage. Riot can set it up where players can only buy 1 of them in a match just like they have for various other items.

A champion like Rammus whose main uses are his CC and reflection damage for trades suffers to hard when forced against an AP comp (such as in ARAM). It cannot be denied that Magic Damage is the dominant of the common damage types and has been for to long and this can help mitigate that some.

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