@Meddler could wukong be a possible candidate for a "mini-rework"?

La Bello··8 votes·11,898 views

Wukong has a very straight forward and powerful and kit but some parts of it has aged like sun-dried concrete cheese. His kit is powerful from a sheer number standpoint however theres not a lot of room for some of the aspects highly valued on newer ability kits such as "expression of skill/mastery" or "meaningful counterplay" .just to clarify I don't think Wukong is too strong or too weak I just think that a lot of his kit simply is not up to snuff compared to other champions. Wukongs skirmish pattern is very basic to the point that he is practically a sequence caster (E into close range land a Q to shred armor and get to spinning!). Everything is targeted more or less which really eliminates the room for interesting game elements .

His passive is largely uninteresting and is simply "free stats" .

His W skill and clone is very "clunky" in-game. If you already have minion aggro but create a clone minions will de-aggro and continue moving forward instead of immediately switching aggro to the clone

W also used to be a great juke tool back when he first came out but now very keen players will realize when you use it due to a very subtle idle-reset animation that happens thus you are mostly relegated to using clone as a way to deny counter trades in lane or get a free stealthed initiation from around the corner very similar to Shaco. As salt on the wound just look at all the things Leblanc clone can do in comparison ! Walking at people, auto attacking AND mimicking spells? Could such technology not be incorporated into Wukongs W to make it a more impactful and believable skill

E is a simple targeted gap closer more or less that grants attack speed. Sadly unlike the other gapclosers it doesn't interact with other champions or environment significantly . no resets on killIrelia ,no snare stun or taunt Pantheon Shen Leona no wall bouncing or traversing Ekko Camille , not even a pitiful slowXinZhao. Its just a gap closer plain and simple with a steroid on top. I guess its supposed to be semi-confusing due to the 2 clones he also sends out but they disappear immediately and Wukong doesn't even flicker out on use so its really obvious which target he chose.

R is his most powerful skill but falls to the same drawback many other "channeled spin" attacks that have existed on character in MOBAs over the years and that is the ever looming question of "Am I putting out the most DPS I possibly can? Would simply auto attacking this person instead of spinning on them yield more DPS?" For instance If I went full crit "assassin Wukong" you get really mixed feelings on this spell and tend to use it exclusively for a knock-up or to escape after a assassination attempt. In other words this ultimate doesn't support all physical damage focused builds equally.

Anyways all in all I think Wukongs is Ripe with potential and He should be looked at.

36 Comments

RiotMeddler13 votes

I'd expect Wukong to be one of the prime candidates for an update when we do Divers. They're a likely choice for the end of year class update, though that's far from guaranteed at this point (we're still extremely focused on tanks and midseason).

CatSith1 votes

Is Elise a candidate in the divers update? even a minor update?

UltraGigaNiga4 votes

{quoted}

I'd expect Wukong to be one of the prime candidates for an update when we do Divers. They're a likely choice for the end of year class update, though that's far from guaranteed at this point (we're still extremely focused on tanks and midseason).

Do you play on reworking every basic champion? I feel like we need at least a small pool of easy to play champions for newer players or people with bad mechanics. Now that amumu and wukong are supposedly candidates for a rework, I feel like that pool is diminishing quite a lot.

LongHair Fox7 votes

Even for reworks riot does sometimes keep in mind that there are newer players. While warwicks kit arguably has a higher skill ceiling he is even more intuitive and easier to pick up and he were before.

La Bello5 votes

Personally I think the problem with "Basic" champions is that they have to be purposefully weaker than more "advanced" champions because play input has to match ingame output.

nobody likes being "Outplayed" by a Tryndacrit or "Outplayed" by 1k damage targeted meganuke Syndra

Its like If one person had to finish a page full of basic addition vs a person who had to finish a page full of advanced calculus for the same prize. Obviously the person doing the calculus is going to feel cheated.

Teridax681 votes

Riot definitely takes newer players into account, and many champions have been recently added or reworked with ease of use as a core goal. The Warwick update is probably the biggest example at this point, since he's still one of the easiest junglers to pick up, if not the easiest, but even before that, Ashe got changes that made her competitively viable while keeping her simplicity, Taric was also kept relatively easy to play, and Jinx has had a pretty forgiving learning curve since her release. Perhaps there are some champions who could've been made less complicated with their reworks, namely Vladimir, Shen and Ryze, but overall Riot hasn't forgotten the importance of easily accessible skill floors.

Big Lincoln1 votes

will you be announcing who's making the tank update soon? very anxious to know if Sejuani will get anything

Kulle Aid1 votes

how does riot view tahm? he hasn't been nearly as popular since release and stat wise he isn't doing that great. I'm not thinking a rework for him but rather are we ever going to see any buff to help our fish friend out as either a support or top laner.

Sad Tyrant5 votes

If Divers were selected who would be the likely candidates other than wukong?

La Bello2 votes

my guess

Irelia XinZhao JarvanIV Pantheon Aatrox Udyr Riven Jayce Jax MasterYi

they would have varying degrees of changes and some might outright not be touched in order to get a full on large-scope rework later down the line (looking at you Tryndamere and Irelia)

Sun Wu Ryuumoku2 votes

Jax MasterYi Riven are skirmisher

Jayce too cross artillery (or some other sh*t).

Udyr is a juggernaut.

its obvious... they're not divers.

LankPants3 votes

I think for Jax at least it's reasonable to say Skirmisher/Diver. He plays very similarly to Irelia, who I'd say probably falls Diver/Skirmisher.

Sun Wu Ryuumoku2 votes

Irelia isnt similary to Jax... Except for build. Look their kit closer.

LankPants3 votes

Targeted gapcloser, spells that encourage auto attacks, stuns, spammy spells to proc triforce, general dive onto carry playstyle. How aren't they similar?

Variks the Loyal4 votes

{quoted}

my guess

Irelia XinZhao JarvanIV Pantheon Aatrox Udyr Riven Jayce Jax MasterYi

they would have varying degrees of changes and some might outright not be touched in order to get a full on large-scope rework later down the line (looking at you Tryndamere and Irelia)

Riven, Yi, and Jax are Skirmishers, not Divers.

Udyr is a Juggernaut, not a Diver.

Jayce is an Artillery Mage/Skirmisher hybrid.

All taken from Riot's class list.

Sun Wu Ryuumoku1 votes

the forgottenAatrox . then Diana XinZhao Nocturne JarvanIV and Pantheon (maybe a VGU for him btw)

Irelia a VGU if i recall

LeeSin Renekton Elise seems good to me... or need little change.

a few change on Hecarim Vi too

elon wątroba1 votes

Yeah Pantheon gets vgu

RiotMeddler6 votes

Aatrox seems like one of the other really likely candidates. Would be much more debateable after that.

LankPants3 votes

I think there's a strong case that champs like Irelia, Diana, Nocturne, Jax (even if he's a skirmisher, he walks the line) and Panth are fairly good already and you could get their kits into working order without a ton of work. Art is another issue entirely, but I personally feel like kits should be prioritised over art.

Lee Sin is also another champion who I'd rank highly. He has too damn much on his kit and needs a rework to be made more sane. Plus you could get rid of ward hopping while doing so (especially if you also do some work on Jax) and that's definitely a huge plus for the game.

World Ender3 votes

So has Aatrox been abandoned for changes before the Diver update? Because you guys mentioned back around November that he would be getting light changes in the preseason or just after. That came and went, and it's now February. Having to go almost another year until next preseason with Aatrox feeling like he does is difficult for me to come to terms with. He's been my favorite champion for a long time now, and seeing him in such a sub-optimal state for so long is kind of disheartening.

I know that its not so simple as snapping your fingers and suddenly a champion is better. Abilities are hard to come up with and balance, and I get that. But at the same time, how difficult would it be to increase base AD by 2 or HP by 20? Small stuff like that would be nice and I seriously doubt that it'd put him over the top. He has some of the lowest base stats of any champion, regardless of one who's supposed to be an initiator. I get that you don't want to change something and then go back and change it again, but...he needs something. He's a joke right now. And with every patch that passes it seems like him getting some fixes get pushed further and further back.

ZaNJeTsU2 votes

{quoted}

Aatrox seems like one of the other really likely candidates. Would be much more debateable after that.

will you give Aatrox some buffs before the divers class update?

RiotMeddler5 votes

Maybe. Because a diver update's a way off (end of year at the earliest) we've been looking into possible Aatrox changes to improve him (game health and functionality) in the meantime. We think he's sat untouched with problems for too long (laning pattern problems with the revive passive, really feast or famine stat check stuff with his drain tanking, lack of distinction from other fighters etc). We haven't yet found a set of changes we've been happy with though. Still working on it, and hope we can find something. It's possible we conclude that to do changes at all that we'd be happy with that we'd need to be doing so as part of a larger update however.

ZaNJeTsU2 votes

but as a player who only love to play aatrox, I think if u add some effect like armor reduction on his e, or a fear cc on his ult, or smaller CD on his Q, you might make him better without breaking the game balance, think about it Vi is a diver, she has armor reduction, Camile has true dmg, and a dive ability with very low CD, but Aatrox have none, I dunno why I feel like u r complicating the case of Aatrox more than anything else in the game :\

Ultîma1 votes

Hopefully Aatrox will get some large-scale changes that will veer him away from being a stat-check duelist and more of a teamfighter who empowers his allies with bloodlust as his theme would suggest.

Luminier1 votes

{quoted}

Maybe. Because a diver update's a way off (end of year at the earliest) we've been looking into possible Aatrox changes to improve him (game health and functionality) in the meantime. We think he's sat untouched with problems for too long (laning pattern problems with the revive passive, really feast or famine stat check stuff with his drain tanking, lack of distinction from other fighters etc). We haven't yet found a set of changes we've been happy with though. Still working on it, and hope we can find something. It's possible we conclude that to do changes at all that we'd be happy with that we'd need to be doing so as part of a larger update however.

I'm sure he could use some minor buffs in the meantime? Some stat boosts, maybe some CC immunity after his passive is popped?

Spoofghoul1 votes

wukong should have a trap ability where he eats a banana and drops the shell

enemy champions stepping on it would slip over it and faceplant

Frius1 votes

feeling that wukong update will mean nerf after a few qol.

DogshítPlayer1 votes

please don't touch my fucking monkey.... with your cancerous reworks....

Sun Wu Ryuumoku2 votes

ur whut ?

Blue Moon Wolf3 votes

I agree that Wukong should be looked at, but more for "modernization" reasons over balance reasons (though you do make some fair points). Wukongs kit doesn't really fit in line with other divers since he is less of a 1v1 fighter and more of a team fighter (sort of a hybrid Vanguard-Diver in a way). Also unlike other divers who have some form of sustain, Wukong only has his passive and his decoy to keep him safe in a team fight. That was fine back in earlier seasons, but anymore if you don't have some form of sustain to help you in lane against champs with pokes, you are practically a sitting duck during the lane phase.

As for his kit, his W definitely needs to feel more impactful. Most of the time getting hit by his W isn't as big as a punishment as other tricks in the game. A good example being how both Leblanc and Shaco's decoys can really punish you for attacking the wrong one. I think if the Decoy at least did basic attacks (even if it did no damage) to a target within its attack range it would at least serve as a better form of deception then it does currently.

I thought of an idea for his E to make it like WW's Q, where it can be held to dash or pressed to send a 3rd decoy instead, but that's more for a thematic reason (don't really think it fits a Diver style honestly). Adding a bit more of that trickery and playfulness that Wukong is known for.

His Ult shouldn't change too much since it's his signature move, but I do think it needs to be tuned to fit along other divers. Something like "if you hit a target with your Q before Ulting, that target deals reduced damage to you" or something.

I do agree he is a champ with a lot of potential and always has been. with a few changes here and there he could be one of, if not the most versatile champs in the game, supporting all kinds of builds and possibly be even better for new players then he is now, since his kit wouldn't punish you as hard for not building a certain way.

beany3 votes

I agree Wukong has a lot of potential, considering what they have done with leblanc, but more so especially considering how he is the only character shared across other MOBAs and is probably the most lackluster one gameplay wise (I like his design the most art wise). I know Wukong's champ judgment isn't canon anymore but it was cool seeing him deluge his target with lots of illusions which could be a good direction for his update.

Doozku1 votes

I think art wise I prefer the new dota one. In fact the dota one is just really cool.

Ashen Rider1 votes

{quoted}

concrete cheese

Yummy

EyesOfTheFox1 votes

I personally love Wukong's kit the way it is.

I agree the passive is lackluster and a lot of people try to force him into a tank role because of this, yet he plays more like an assassin. The problem with that is he's still relatively squishy and can be burst down if he's not building tank, yet if you build tank, your ability damage suffers. The AP scaling on his W is also kind of a wtf.

CH0BBY1 votes

you guys should just fix the hitbox on q and e and aatrox will be fine

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