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Lower the burst but increase the Sustained damage of ADC

xJLx MCHammer·Oct 20, 2017·30 votes·1,529 views

@Riot

What is this?

You nerf champions for having strong burst but turn a complete eye on ADC that have evolved from the last 24 month into a burst type of champion

The fact we see ADC damage becoming burst. We see ADCs late game 2-3 shotting other squishy champion.

This isn’t the only weird thing. We used to see Tanks in front but you see watch world game now, ADCs tend to be in the front because even a tank can be bursted down to 50% with 1-2 quick hits.

I don’t want ADC nerfs our right. I want a change to how fast they do the damage. Giving them Crit with Statik Shic allowed an ADC to do a huge burst on the first hit.

Can we do something about this. It’s already sad seeing a ADC like Trist crit for 1700 with one Auto attack but a Xerath can land a full combo late game and it come close to that damage.

Again, I don’t want a nerf to ADC. I want a change to when you start to feel their damage. Right now, they are being pushed to be Burst champions. Try need to be sustained damage champions.

This is the perfect time. The ruin that gives them damage increase for consecutive auto attacks men’s you can lower the up front burst and give them the burst as a sustained damage.

61 Comments

RebonackOct 20, 201710 votes

Making crits ignore a (large) percentage of the target's armor rather than dealing double damage would accomplish this. Their ability to burst soft targets would drop while their ability to grind down hard targets would remain more or less the same.

Zero Skill TankOct 20, 201710 votes

It would also make armor even more useless than it is now.

xJLx MCHammerOct 20, 20171 votes

[{quoted}](name=dont stop Niisan,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=kkV6073L,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2017-10-20T16:24:09.233+0000)

It would also make armor even more useless than it is now.

Armor can Work a lot like how Warmog unique pass works. Tanks can get an item that helps them scale armor if they already have X amount of armor

Zero Skill TankOct 20, 20176 votes

Why would I buy an item that rewards me for having an useless stat by granting me more useless stat?

KaìjuOct 20, 20171 votes

You clearly never played old Malphite into a full AD team. I got to 1000 armor and took about 4 seconds d's of the whole team hitting me to lose passive shield. Armor might have been nerfed, but if you want to say armor is useless then why is everyone crying Sejuani has like 600 armor for 3 seconds?

TortungaOct 20, 20174 votes

Because not every tank/bruiser has an armor steriod in their kit. Armor is fine if you can get insane amounts, but for any tank/bruiser that can get 300 at the most, without completely gimping the rest of their defences or damage, armor is pretty meh.

Anyway I think crit as a tank killer could work, if last whisper would get removed. Make ADC chose what they want to mainly kill; Tanks with crit, or squishies with lethality, or on-hit for a bit of both.

KaìjuOct 20, 20171 votes

I don't think making champions like Ashe or Cait go lethality is a good idea. Lethality has very little in the way of attack speed which is still a stat that Makrsmen need a lot of, so they would end up with really low attack speed since only a handful of marksmen have big buffs, namely Tristana Q and MF W being the only ones I can think of. Everyone else's is like 30 to 40% if they have one at all.

TortungaOct 20, 20171 votes

It would of course not work in the current state, but if they are willing to rework crit in something new, they might as well rework all the ADC items, and fil the holes where needed. I was just saying crit as a tank killer could work, if they removed last whisper, and made the different ADC items sets have more specific strength and weaknesses.

HaIlMonitorOct 20, 20172 votes

Tanks are supposed to be weak to ADC's. If mages and Assassins could maybe actually kill the ADC's the tanks could help CC and fight the enemy squishies. That would make it okay. Also even though we have items like LW tanks dont ever say "Awe lame, 35% of my armor is gone, I will just stack health instead"

xJLx MCHammerOct 20, 20173 votes

{quoted}

Making crits ignore a (large) percentage of the target's armor rather than dealing double damage would accomplish this. Their ability to burst soft targets would drop while their ability to grind down hard targets would remain more or less the same.

Crit should be used to bust tanks

My issue is that right now, the Crit is so strong that is feels like you’re getting bursted by the ADC when you play a squishy. It’s insane

RebonackOct 20, 20171 votes

[{quoted}](name=xJLx MCHammer,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=kkV6073L,comment-id=00000001,timestamp=2017-10-20T18:29:17.773+0000)

Crit should be used to bust tanks

My issue is that right now, the Crit is so strong that is feels like you’re getting bursted by the ADC when you play a squishy. It’s insane

Live crit is for blowing up EVERYONE. Which is bad especially due to Burst champs being loaded down with extra outplay potential.

xJLx MCHammerOct 20, 20173 votes

{quoted}

Live crit is for blowing up EVERYONE. Which is bad especially due to Burst champs being loaded down with extra outplay potential.

Crit should be a tank buster. That's the idea behind it originally. Lethality was supposed to work vs squihsues

The way it is now, crit is better vs squishies. That has to change

FlameHalbrdOkidoOct 21, 20171 votes

{quoted}

Making crits ignore a (large) percentage of the target's armor rather than dealing double damage would accomplish this. Their ability to burst soft targets would drop while their ability to grind down hard targets would remain more or less the same.

10/10 would up core if I could

SujirenOct 20, 20179 votes

Statik shiv is mostly at fault here.

KaìjuOct 20, 20172 votes

I always hate that item. Even back as a scrub ADS player in season 4 I knew that item was stupid. AOE burst damage on a DPS role. A Halo player on his first MOBA wouldn't be able to predict three years early that an item is gonna cause problems.

VerxintOct 20, 20176 votes

I would prefer ADC's damage be more concentrated in the unique parts of their kits instead of from raw AA damge. I can't say how to accomplish this, but imo it would make things better

KaìjuOct 20, 20171 votes

Like crit does something special for every one of them? What could that be... Q does bonus damage for Ez, Cait gets extra range for any crit auto, Trist gets her little splash damage E passive on crits, Ashe still gets her empowered slow, Lucian shoots twice, Twitch leaves a stack of his passive that doesn't have a cap (So you get six stacks of poison capped butnuf you say crit three our of four more autos they go up to mince stacks of poison etc), Xayah leaves a free feather where she autos to but it doesn't have that pass through effect of her passive, Kog leaves a tiny burn for say 1% current health on crits, with his W being the same, Kalista gets to jump if she crits, Draven gets a stack of his passive if he crits, and more for the others?

VerxintOct 21, 20171 votes

I wasn't really thinking crit interactions, more along the lines of emphasizing the autoattack interactions in their kit, at least until the endgame. Instead of getting to right click things like crazy with 2-3 items, they should need 4 or 5. Until then, we'd have things like Varus depending on his blight stacks, twitch having more interactions with expunge and poison stacks, caitlyn focusing more on traps and headshots, etc. It's hard to know what to do for everyone, and some adc's may still be autoattack-centered, but I mostly feel there's a lot of room to improve things that isn't explored.

KaìjuOct 21, 20171 votes

I can dig it. My big issue is with Cait. I think they should rework or maybe honestly remove her traps and double down on the sniper theme. The traps being such an integral part of her damage feels so strange because if you're just intelligent you won't ever get hit by one and it makes her damage suffer. I kinda just think it should be swapped out with something else. Maybe an armor piercing round?

SasogwaOct 20, 20174 votes

adc's dont even have great burst, they just have such a retarded dps it's burst per second. Why would you ever buff their dps?

ThefrostyvikingOct 21, 20173 votes

Its burst per second because it crits absurdly high.

What OP wants is for the crits to be shifted from raw damage that kills everything into a more anti tank focused damage, which would indeed solve the issue of something like a Trist or Twitch jumping out and 3 shotting people with rapid fire.

SasogwaOct 21, 20171 votes

{quoted}

Its burst per second because it crits absurdly high.

What OP wants is for the crits to be shifted from raw damage that kills everything into a more anti tank focused damage, which would indeed solve the issue of something like a Trist or Twitch jumping out and 3 shotting people with rapid fire.

Change Adc's damage to % health damage? So then all the tankmelter specialists like Vayne Kog'maw no longer have a niche?

edit : potentially you could nerf adc in general or nerf crit and then bring LW/dominiks/mortals to 40% from 35% even though we all hate that item.

ThefrostyvikingOct 21, 20171 votes

It doesn't have to be % damage actually, just give it a armor pen bonus or a higher AD or a mix between them.

While either severely limiting crit or making it a real lategame build that really is a lot weaker than anything else through early and mid somehow.

And sad as it is but we can't nerf marksmen in general without also taking down most tanks to match, their power lvls must always be relative to one another as long as mages remain so bad at the job.

For even now as many call marksmen OP we also have a ton of people running around calling for nerfs to Seju,mao, cho and sometimes even galio.

Think i saw some guys wanting mundo to be nerfed as well?

They are so strong that only the strongest marksmen can do anything about them, that ought to count for something given how many view every single marksman as OP.

wildfox99Oct 20, 20173 votes

The fact we see ADC damage becoming burst

is this retard combo item 3087 + item 3094 + item 3031 which allows ADCs to outburst a mage with only autos,though shiv or rapidfire outdamange luden so easily a burst oriented item gives less burst than a DPS one,and still their passive are more useful,shiv deal bonus damange to minions and rapidfire add range,and then the price difference : 3200 (1100 combination) for luden vs 2600 for shiv,so fair.... crit items are so cheap and give a better stats than the AD assassin/AP ones

is so stupid that ADCs like draven/vayne can just Q > AA you and you are dead,they should make ADC damange scale with each autos they hit (something that scales like fervor),or giving them more % damange or damange boost based on HP difference so they can't OS a squishy target but they still do a nice damange over the time especially vs tanks

about support i think riot may have understood that censer abuser are so broken (maybe when at the worlds the ardent censer was seen as an "objective" like it would be a baron or a drake)

KaìjuOct 20, 20171 votes

I think you should be forced to choose. If you get one you can't get the other, like Hydra.

wildfox99Oct 20, 20171 votes

when firecannon was relased its passive couldn't stack with the shiv,idk why they made them stack,it's just stupid that an ADC can do more damange with 1 auto then a mage with a rotation,when a mage or assassin can still miss it

xJLx MCHammerOct 20, 20171 votes

{quoted}

when firecannon was relased its passive couldn't stack with the shiv,idk why they made them stack,it's just stupid that an ADC can do more damange with 1 auto then a mage with a rotation,when a mage or assassin can still miss it

exactly

It’s very surprising that an a late game AA is more rewarding than a full rotation by some mages. I won’t say all because it’s obviously not true but certainly many

It’s sad that AP champs have some way gotten nerfed in their burst and give more cooldown reduction. It just means you have to land more abilities consistently for reward while the AA always hits the target

It’s why some ADCs spike better at mid game than many AP Champions

wildfox99Oct 21, 20171 votes

actually the problem is : adc are supposed to kill tanky targets,but the damange which they do for killing them is mostly flat (crits,on-hit effects...) so if they can kill a tank with this damange they can totally blow up a squishy one

xJLx MCHammerOct 21, 20171 votes

{quoted}

actually the problem is : adc are supposed to kill tanky targets,but the damange which they do for killing them is mostly flat (crits,on-hit effects...) so if they can kill a tank with this damange they can totally blow up a squishy one

Hence why I said They need to work on making sure that damage amplified to tanks and not squishies. Squishies should fear a Lethality builds more than Crit.

The Last BalladOct 21, 20171 votes

about support i think riot may have understood that censer abuser are so broken (maybe when at the worlds the ardent censer was seen as an "objective" like it would be a baron or a drake)

They nerfed the item before worlds started, but the worlds patch was the one before the nerf.

wildfox99Oct 21, 20171 votes

it's still op,actually it got hard nerfed on pbe

FlameHalbrdOkidoOct 21, 20172 votes

{quoted}

is this retard combo + + which allows ADCs to outburst a mage with only autos,though shiv or rapidfire outdamange luden so easily a burst oriented item gives less burst than a DPS one,and still their passive are more useful,shiv deal bonus damange to minions and rapidfire add range,and then the price difference : 3200 (1100 combination) for luden vs 2600 for shiv,so fair.... crit items are so cheap and give a better stats than the AD assassin/AP ones

is so stupid that ADCs like draven/vayne can just Q > AA you and you are dead,they should make ADC damange scale with each autos they hit (something that scales like fervor),or giving them more % damange or damange boost based on HP difference so they can't OS a squishy target but they still do a nice damange over the time especially vs tanks

about support i think riot may have understood that censer abuser are so broken (maybe when at the worlds the ardent censer was seen as an "objective" like it would be a baron or a drake)

Bruh what if they replaced the current Rift Herald item with Ardent Censor...then we'd see a lot more go 4 it

IRyzeForNidaleeOct 21, 20173 votes

Increase their sustained damage? Their sustained damage is already higher than most champion's burst.

PopcornBunniOct 21, 20172 votes

The problem came from the """tank""" update. Infinity Edge made 200g cheaper, zeal made cheaper, Shiv's MAGIC damage increased, Last Whisper made cheaper and its %pen lowered, but with tanks having higher armor values and lower health, means that the item negates even more armor than before, and for cheaper.

item 3087 needs crit energised strikes removed, damage lowered, and turned back into a waveclear tool

Power creep on the other AD items, namely Bloodthirster and Death's Dance, need reverted. Infinity Edge price brought back up.

Another change that would be nice is if critical strikes functioned always on the last possible hit for a given target. So if you have 20% crit chance, the fifth attack on a single target would be a crtiical strike, exclusive for that target. This would increase consistancy and lower burst at the same time, at the least until higher crit chances are reached.

Crit chance at higher amounts would need to overflow to be an accurate description of the stat, so with 60% crit, the first attack wouldn't crit, but the second would, while adding 20% to the next crit buildup. Then the next strike, putting it at 80%, wouldn't crit, and the next, putting it at 40% with overflow, would crit, and then the next, at 100%, would crit again, setting the crit buildup at 0 on that target again. This would create an accurate, and importantly, consistent 60% of attacks being critical strikes without doing the weird shifting crit value around the listed crit chance mechanic going on currently

XDDDOct 21, 20172 votes

Of all champion classes, that one does NOT need compensation buffs.

Just cut the burst of the item 3087 item 3094 combo and call it a day. Because it's so fun losing a quarter of my HP from an 800 range auto every few seconds.

We're allowed to stack those two items for an offensive bullshit combo but we're not allowed to stack item 3053 item 3156 for a defensive bullshit combo. Nice double standards.

wildfox99Oct 21, 20171 votes

yes,why i'm not allowed to stack up 6 item 3070 ? [cass-cry]

talking seriusly,this combo is so stupid,but shiv itself have an insane damage if you crit (it was supposed to be a clear wawe item,well technically you clear enemy team so it still works),so it should get nerfed as well

AirKingNeoOct 20, 20171 votes

Every time this gets suggested, every post will fail to address every single downside to this idea.

So this time I'll just ask, think.

xJLx MCHammerOct 20, 20175 votes

{quoted}

Every time this gets suggested, every post will fail to address every single downside to this idea.

So this time I'll just ask, think.

Every time this gets suggest, there is always a few post that post that there are downside of this idea. They never say what or they are very vague. They try to make it seem like the suggested idea from me or another OP is bound to fail. They rather a broken system for ADC be present rather than work to fix it.

AirKingNeoOct 20, 20171 votes

Yes because I definitely support a bad system and am TOTALLY NOT ASKING for you to check all sides to your idea. /s Also the current system is fine. Just nerf critical damage (either overall or on IE) and it's pretty fair once supports aren't making ADCs untouchable.

Since you refuse to point out the VERY OBVIOUS ISSUES with your own, poorly made idea, I am forced to.

Benefits attack speed stacking the most
Literally breaks Jhin, Tryndamere, and Yasuo.
Benefit safe adcs, force a burst meta where it is kill the ADC before their damage scales.

NineTailedMysticOct 21, 20172 votes

Benefit safe adcs, force a burst meta where it is kill the ADC before their damage scales.

I don't see a problem with this one.

wildfox99Oct 21, 20173 votes

Benefit safe adcs, force a burst meta where it is kill the ADC before their damage scales.

this is how it should be...not like actually it's so different,4 guys peeling the adc and enemy team have to kill him before he OS everyone,the difference would be that ADCs wouldn't be able to trade/1vs1 mage and assassin so easily as actually they do it would change a meta from : ADC / SUPP > everyone,mages are support and assassins trollpick to: mage/assassin > ADC ADC > tank tank > assassin/mage and the supporter won't be anymore the ADC babysitter but the one who support the WHOLE team (as he's supposed to be)

AirKingNeoOct 21, 20171 votes

Except it makes any ADC not Varus, Ashe, or Caitlyn suck.

ThefrostyvikingOct 21, 20171 votes

Varus is good though, he´s been played in the LCS as a alternative to kog last i heard and saw.

And he is good in soloq too at times, his build versatility helps a great deal.

AirKingNeoOct 21, 20171 votes

Have you seen Varus's winrate at worlds?

It's laughable.

ThefrostyvikingOct 21, 20171 votes

Isn't it the same as Seju? At 49% that is.

With even more picks and bans as far as i know.

Xayah is also at 49%.

And his pickrate is in the top 10 O_O

If anything that drags his winrates down, since he isnt broken enough to support a massive winrate+playrate.

AirKingNeoOct 21, 20171 votes

Xayah's and Sej's banrates though.

ThefrostyvikingOct 21, 20171 votes

And Varus gets picked after that, meaning he is their go to pick after the really strong ones get banned.

Which means he is anything but bad.

ThefrostyvikingOct 21, 20171 votes

While i agree that marksmen should not deal absurd crits and chunk people down quite so fast and that static is OP there is a problem in this mess as well.

It's the fact that a large portion of the time marksmen do not have any survival tools thus they rely on the support to keep them alive, thus it's not marksman>assassin/mage its more often marksman+support> assassin+mage or assassin+assassin.

And so many of the assassin mains are flipping their tables because marksmen don't fall over like wet noodles just because the assassins managed to use their MLG zed combo of flash-W-R Mash-all-the buttons only to fail the kill because they got exhausted or the support had enough shields to let the marksman survive.

That or they got CC'ed to death.

Last issue is that tanks are extremely tyrannical at the moment, even the marksmen are struggling with them, all of them except Vayne that is.

We're essentially in a meta were if one team picks a maokai,seju or cho then you have to pick KogMaw Varus or Vayne otherwise you´ll have lost the match before it even got started.

wildfox99Oct 21, 20171 votes

an hipercarry in mid/lategame or some ADCs such a lucian can always 1vs1 mid laners,or at last "almost 1vs1",so even with a tiny help such a shield they can win

And so many of the assassin mains are flipping their tables because marksmen don't fall over like wet noodles just because the assassins managed to use their MLG zed combo of flash-W-R Mash-all-the buttons only to fail the kill because they got exhausted or the support had enough shields to let the marksman survive.

as mid main,i can say is so frustrating going into a risky play,hitting everything and seeing the support making you useless with just pressing 1 button (such as janna's E),if he got engaged i'd expect to kill him unless his full team try to peel him ,but actually you can berely kill them 1vs1...especially when their damange is like your burst but over the time,like getting outbursted by the twitch that came from nowhere and killed you before you can even cast 1 ability

ThefrostyvikingOct 21, 20171 votes

Only marksmen you should have difficulties with as a assassin are Twitch,trist,vayne and Draven, the rest lack the tools to really duel anything except Lucian who is played specifically into mages with important skillshots to miss.

Twitch is only an issue because he sits back way out of ones range while dealing massive chunks of health with each shot, that after appearing from some random direction after bypassing 1-2 wards.

But no other can really 1v1 as far as i know thus the ones that can are in a minority.

However that minority is played in a majority of games because of how powerful they are which is the reason so many are frustrated, including marksmen mains playing any other marksman.

Did you know? Nearly all the korean Ashe mains have dropped the champ, and many of the caitlyn mains dropped theirs too.

Jhin mains also dropped, even if they had 200+ games they still decided the champ wasn't worth the effort when you can spend half the energy on something else for the same or even more rewards.

Meanwhile tons of people are constantly picking up Vayne,Twitch and Trist and a few on Draven.

And yet somehow Ashe is still a postergirl for OP marksmen, i´ve legit seen people say that "Ashe kits too well and deals too much damage".

Right, she must be strong when the all her top korean mains have dropped her ._.

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