I'll admit, Q'ing a tower does a lot of damage to it really quickly. but Jinx and Trist can kill a tower in the same time frame. Instead of completely denying this tactic, and ruining Ashe's ablity to take towers quickly if no one is stopping her, what if riot just changed Q so that Q does 70% damage to towers?
SpongebobIsLife17 voteswell maybe, the problem is that she offers much more utility than those 2 adcs, plus that's their general trademark; they eat threw towers. That was not the way Riot planned for ashe to be and tbh, it gives her a bit too much power, so I can understand them nerfing her like this.
rtbf2216514124 votes[{quoted}](name=Its Spongebob,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=kjjEEb2Q,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2015-06-03T00:29:51.972+0000)
well maybe, the problem is that she offers much more utility than those 2 adcs, plus that's their general trademark; they eat threw towers. That was not the way Riot planned for ashe to be and tbh, it gives her a bit too much power, so I can understand them nerfing her like this.
Traps, a slow, movespeed boost, and etc from Jynx. Yup, more utility.
Lord Dusteon9 votesTraps, a slow, movespeed boost, and etc from Jynx. Yup, more utility.
The traps take a second to actually start, and only snare for a short time. The slow is single target, shows the exact place the slow will hit, and causes Jinx to freeze in place while firing it. The movement speed boost is only for Jinx and I hesitate to even include it in utility as it does not help her team in any way (which is what I define utility as; any form of CC, ally buff, or enemy debuff. Jinx's passive does not fit in any of those).
Ashe has a perma slow, long ranged way to use the slow (W) and a global ultimate with THE longest duration hard CC in the game at a 3.5 second stun. Much more utility.
rtbf2216514121 votes[{quoted}](name=Lord Dusteon,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=kjjEEb2Q,comment-id=000000000000,timestamp=2015-06-03T01:00:18.593+0000)
The traps take a second to actually start, and only snare for a short time. The slow is single target, shows the exact place the slow will hit, and causes Jinx to freeze in place while firing it. The movement speed boost is only for Jinx and I hesitate to even include it in utility as it does not help her team in any way (which is what I define utility as; any form of CC, ally buff, or enemy debuff. Jinx's passive does not fit in any of those).
Ashe has a perma slow, long ranged way to use the slow (W) and a global ultimate with THE longest duration hard CC in the game at a 3.5 second stun. Much more utility.
Regardless, utility for runes includes movement speed and life steal which is why I would rather say CC and support.
Tell me, what advantages besides subpar damage and mediocre move speed would Ashe have over other ADC? Besides CC? She had enough weaknesses to begin with. No item build could make up for it before the revamp.
Lord Dusteon8 votesRegardless, utility for runes includes movement speed and life steal which is why I would rather say CC and support.
Tell me, what advantages besides subpar damage and mediocre move speed would Ashe have over other ADC? Besides CC? She had enough weaknesses to begin with. No item build could make up for it before the revamp.
...Massive CC? That IS her advantage. She's a utility carry and always has been, just as Vayne is a massive DPS that shreds tanks, or Twitch is an amazing teamfight or ambush adc. She has reasonably large range for a carry (600), amazing map presence (a global stun means if her ult is up anyone with very low health or anywhere near your team has to be wary of being hit instead of just low health enemies for other global ult carries), and a permanent slow. Yes, her damage is lower (though with Q up it is actually rather strong, and with her ult she can reasonably duel squishies if need be) but her niche is CC which she provides admirably.
ArkenStorm3 votesMorganas snare feels longer
Sire Hippington1 votescause in most scenarios, it actually does last longer...
RiotMeddler25 votesThat's the thinking here. Where possible we'd like to create or preserve distinctive strengths on different champions, particular those within the same class (ADCs in this case). Jinx and Trist are both really good at destroying buildings, it's a defining characteristic for them. Ashe by contrast's distinguished from other ADCs most by the sheer amount of CC she brings. Since we feel Ashe is too strong at present we need to nerf her, we're trying to do so in ways that ensure that Ashe continues to offer a different impact on the game, and a really distinct experience for people playing her however.
Removing a character's strengths, or giving them strengths that overlap too much with other characters, risks creating a really homogenized game, where, even if you see a wide range of characters played, the difference between them's not very significant, so it still feels samey. Removing unnecessary strengths, if a champion is overpowered, is the approach we prefer as a result.
President FkBoi5 votesI made a post earlier, and I was wondering if you could comment. Would you consider putting a tag like Ashe's (This ability will not affect structures/This ability will affect structures) on every champion's ability that affects on hit (Nasus, Darius, etc)? I think it's a significant clarity update that could help everyone involved :)
xoxoxoxo1 votesI actually didn't know that Ekko's E could be used on turrets until I accidentally half shot one after miss clicking. I definitely think they should do this :D
Reikken2 votesI really like this nerf too. Since it feels like Ashe actually got weaker in Dominion, and this doesn't affect her power there.
Mikan14 votesSo basically it's ok for Tristana to be decent at clearing waves and great for tower taking in exchange for a horrendous early game, Ashe to have a gimped early game if the current PBE W nerfs, weakening her trading, go through as well as the Q nerfs making her not able to take towers, but Jinx have good laning, god tier wave clearing even at level 1, and still shred towers? I don't understand this logic. Jinx still seems to clearly be superior and dominate especially at lower brackets, even though the initial changes were supposed to address this.
Dantilq13 votesIf your goal is to kill towers, yes Jinx is BY FAR superiour to any other ADC. It's her major strength. She pushes well, she kills towers fast/safe, she have decent laning. You get jinx when you want a strong objective game, but have a very killable ADC. Jinx have very clear weaknesses.
Ashe on the other hand, you don't pick Ashe because your main goal is to kill towers. You pick Ashe because you want to have an ADC with a safe initiate. This is what makes Ashe strong. This is a massive strength, this combined with a permaslow is what makes Ashe powerful. No other ADC can do what Ashe can do.
Tristana's identity is more muddled though. She have quite a bit of overlap with Jinx, being a tower-killer and pusher. Difference is Tristana is a safe ADC, while Jinx a risky one. Tristana have lots of self-peel, and a good escape, while jinx only have some. Both have resets, but Jinx reset is much better. TBH I feel Tristana is lacking a strong identity, and current one is overshadowed by Jinx. This is both personality-wise and gameplay-wise. Tristana is just a boring character.
Kuroi861 votesTrist is a bit of a teamfight specialist. Her Q lets her get off a lost of AA's in quick succession which can be devastating to a tank if she has both crit and Bork. Her W can get her in and out of fights as needed, and if she's in a good spot can give her access to massive damage. Her E gives her strong AoE which gives great synergy with Shivv and along with W can help her to be a massive force in teamfights. Her ult makes her extremely hard for assassins to gank, but can also allow her to help displace an enemy for her team to jump on.
Dantilq2 votesWell, how does that differ much from Jinx, except she is more safe, with less damage and snowball potential?
Jinx passive in teamfights acts very similar to Tristana W, you can either set up chains of kills, or use it as an escape.
Jinx have her Q to attack from safe and long distance, acting similar to Tristana's passive and E, dealing AoE.
I agree that Tristana's ulti is unique, but it's not enough to build a full identity around, and not enough to make her role differ enough to Jinx's.
Kuroi861 votesYou said it yourself, Jinx is much better at objectives. Jinx is still good in team fights, though better when her team catches the enemy by surprise, she still requires a little peel from her team. Jinx is still great in team fights, but she is beastly at pushing objectives. Trist is good at pushing objectives, but incredibly strong in team fights, especially later on in the game. Both champs have similar strengths, so it's really up to the player to decide which fits their taste better.
Jïnx1 votesOkay, I love playing adc's, but you have to remember one thing - they are ranged carries. As a marksman you should be able to attack from safe distance, that is their main strange. Every league champion has their own unique strength. If we take marksmans as a group - they are squishy, and easy to jump on. To play marksman you need to think how to survive and deal the most of dmg possible. As Jinx can CRUSH towers, she doesn't really have any escapes other than killing someone or catching their in E, Ashe can stun from R, and slow from aa and W, and Tristana can just W away or use ult to keep enemies away. As for now, with all changes made (including nerfs and buffs) I think the bot lane is pretty balanced. For now.
Bradley Dragon1 votesThat's the thinking here. Where possible we'd like to create or preserve distinctive strengths on different champions, particular those within the same class (ADCs in this case). Jinx and Trist are both really good at destroying buildings, it's a defining characteristic for them. Ashe by contrast's distinguished from other ADCs most by the sheer amount of CC she brings. Since we feel Ashe is too strong at present we need to nerf her, we're trying to do so in ways that ensure that Ashe continues to offer a different impact on the game, and a really distinct experience for people playing her however.
Removing a character's strengths, or giving them strengths that overlap too much with other characters, risks creating a really homogenized game, where, even if you see a wide range of characters played, the difference between them's not very significant, so it still feels samey. Removing unnecessary strengths, if a champion is overpowered, is the approach we prefer as a result.
ashe is strong right now.... what are you smoking. she needs a BUFF NOT NERFS. you made her perma crit yes. but you took away her much needed passive gold gain. she has the LEAST LATE GAME DMG IN THE GAME NOW since ina typical game you have 250 ad and only 130-40% crit dmg. she does like nothing. NORMAL CRITS DO DOUBLE DMG. SHE NEVER EVEN GETS TO DO A NORMAL CRIT WORTH OF DMG. it is not even worth building crit of her. when i can just go full ad with attack speed runes and use q to kill. and that yi and olaf are imune to her damage completly. she is hard countered by cait in lane. you nerfed her so hard why take away her only strong point she curently has.
and massive cc she brings? a max 25% slow at lvl 18? that is nothing. fm slows more and makes you tankier. her movespeed is so low she cant kite a chogath without boots even with swifties.
try buffing her so she isnt a insta loss. she needs at least 15 more base movespeed and 150% base crit dmg. 110% is literally nothing whne she has no ad steroids. and a long cd 40% attack speed buff with a bugged 20% slow that doesnet actually slow? jinx has 120+ attack speed that she gets PASSIVELY.....
you guys seriously need to stop with the over counterplay with your horrible reworks. currently ryze is useless unless fed on purpose.
Kingsgrave3 votesashe is strong right now.... what are you smoking. she needs a BUFF NOT NERFS. you made her perma crit yes. but you took away her much needed passive gold gain. she has the LEAST LATE GAME DMG IN THE GAME NOW since ina typical game you have 250 ad and only 130-40% crit dmg. she does like nothing. NORMAL CRITS DO DOUBLE DMG. SHE NEVER EVEN GETS TO DO A NORMAL CRIT WORTH OF DMG. it is not even worth building crit of her. when i can just go full ad with attack speed runes and use q to kill. and that yi and olaf are imune to her damage completly. she is hard countered by cait in lane. you nerfed her so hard why take away her only strong point she curently has.
and massive cc she brings? a max 25% slow at lvl 18? that is nothing. fm slows more and makes you tankier. her movespeed is so low she cant kite a chogath without boots even with swifties.
try buffing her so she isnt a insta loss. she needs at least 15 more base movespeed and 150% base crit dmg. 110% is literally nothing whne she has no ad steroids. and a long cd 40% attack speed buff with a bugged 20% slow that doesnet actually slow? jinx has 120+ attack speed that she gets PASSIVELY.....
you guys seriously need to stop with the over counterplay with your horrible reworks. currently ryze is useless unless fed on purpose.
"needs buffed"
http://champion.gg/champion/Ashe
Yeah no
Celeste Benal1 votesI find it interesting that her win-rate drops precipitously as game time goes longer and by games played. I guess old bros aren't adjusting to her new kit very well.
RiotMeddler6 votes[{quoted}](name=Celeste Benal,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=kjjEEb2Q,comment-id=00000001000300000001,timestamp=2015-06-03T14:48:07.905+0000)
I find it interesting that her win-rate drops precipitously as game time goes longer and by games played. I guess old bros aren't adjusting to her new kit very well.
Few things I'd suggest bearing in mind when looking at stats like these:
YourSh4dow1 votesI get that Q might be too strong vs towers post lvl 6 but why would you nerf already low dmg W (Volley)?? that 20 dmg does makes quite difference since it has such large cooldown early.
SquishyArchon3 votes{quoted} Ashe by contrast's distinguished from other ADCs most by the sheer amount of CC she brings.
Haha, that's cute. 
ItemsGuy1 votesThat's the thinking here. Where possible we'd like to create or preserve distinctive strengths on different champions, particular those within the same class (ADCs in this case). Jinx and Trist are both really good at destroying buildings, it's a defining characteristic for them. Ashe by contrast's distinguished from other ADCs most by the sheer amount of CC she brings. Since we feel Ashe is too strong at present we need to nerf her, we're trying to do so in ways that ensure that Ashe continues to offer a different impact on the game, and a really distinct experience for people playing her however.
Removing a character's strengths, or giving them strengths that overlap too much with other characters, risks creating a really homogenized game, where, even if you see a wide range of characters played, the difference between them's not very significant, so it still feels samey. Removing unnecessary strengths, if a champion is overpowered, is the approach we prefer as a result.
Even in this case, I'd think having both Trist and Jinx as "marksmen that are good at killing towers" is a bit too much, especially considering their other similarities (potentially super long range, snowballing potential via mobility in fights and via strong gold scaling, etc.), especially since when you look at the two, you see a marksman (markswoman? marksyordle?) who is good at killing and fighting near towers because she has an ability with distinct gameplay around it that can deal significant damage to towers and enemies near them, and another marksman who is good at killing towers because she is good at killing anything with a health bar, since that's what happens when you throw a lot of right-click damage on somebody! That being said, homogeneity is a pretty big problem in the roster right now--an understatement, honestly--so I'm pretty happy that this is finally starting to be addressed.
(Of course, Tristana's also pretty good at killing non-tower things, but the fact that towers can't really back away to prevent her bomb from getting charged up makes using it against them much more reliable)
Onireaper1 votes@RIOT Meddler The problem here is, an ADC regardless of their Kit is an ADC. they are supposed to be able to clear a lane, kill a tower and deal a large amount of damage at the cost of utility and defense. if you make an ADC with a basis built on utility ("the sheer amount of CC she brings") then you are creating an AD based support and not a true ADC.
That being said; make her auto attack slow higher, say 40%. then make it only apply every 3 seconds or something. that way she cant perma slow someone but you can leave her damage (what an ADC does) alone.
lDontLiftIcarry1 voteswhy gut ashe rework at all meddler. Jinx is still broken as shit. Theres still; zero reasons to pick ashe outside of a different pick for once.
Jinx cait Kalisita Lucian Graves every game sure gets fucking boring. They're all the same. Broken damage broken mobility or broken aoe.
GGWP.
YOU BEEN WARNED1 votesThanks for considering what I said, Meddler. If that's what happened, I appreciate it regardless. :)
SnugglePuggle941 votesHer nerf is way to much.
FlsTlord1 votesHer CC is kind of laughable early-mid game considering her damage is so low especially when she can't activate a 5 stacked Q till the fight is already over.
I mean don't tell me jinx doesn't have better area control/cc with her root and slow + she has so much longer ranger with her rockets...
Only thing Ashe has going for her is her ultimate and when a champion relies only on that it is a bit sad.
FantasySniper4 votesCan't really complain. Her kill potential is off the charts, so taking towers shouldn't be one of her main strengths any more than other ADCs.
Jinx can still take towers sort of hard, despite her nerfs, but she doesn't have nearly the same level of CC.
Solidair34 votesCurrently she's acting as a turret destroyer, which is not part of her identity.
Frankly, I think this is the best possible nerf scenario. She won't get a flurry attack, but she'll still get the attack speed from the activation. It's not like she can't hurt turrets anymore.
I'm just glad they did this instead of going for her passive.
The W nerf is also acceptable since, imo, its main use now is getting stacks for Q.
PolarTroop3 votesIm really sad to see this nerf on the PBE. Give it reduced damage to towers is a great idea to compensate.
Lordofthepittt3 votesEh. The only thing I thought was good about her rework was the damage she could do to towers with her new Q. Otherwise... I don't like the rework. Using your Q (on ememy champs) requires you to build 5 stacks of focus. But I feel like the focus goes away too quickly, and you have to CONSTANTLY be attacking.... thus, you have to be unmoving. And on someone as squishy as an ADC, and with someone with relatively short AA range, I do not want to be immobile and unmoving while close to the enemy support or ADC. Too riskehhh.
Lucentile1 votesEh. The only thing I thought was good about her rework was the damage she could do to towers with her new Q. Otherwise... I don't like the rework. Using your Q (on ememy champs) requires you to build 5 stacks of focus. But I feel like the focus goes away too quickly, and you have to CONSTANTLY be attacking.... thus, you have to be unmoving. And on someone as squishy as an ADC, and with someone with relatively short AA range, I do not want to be immobile and unmoving while close to the enemy support or ADC. Too riskehhh.
You can also hit your W on multiple targets to stack.
Also: Being immobile is Ashe's defining weakness as an ADC. She is designed to kite, and rely on kiting.
Magma Lux Mid1 votesTry learning to orbwalk. And using her q will melt champs, especially once it's maxed.
FalconPawwwwnch3 votesBecause Ashe is obscenely overpowered right now?
ADC mains I swear
Immortal Strife3 votesUnloading the new Ashe Q onto a tower was one of the more empowering feeling when playing her new kit, I'll be extremely sad to see it go, and I don't think removing it is the right move.
Magma Lux Mid2 votesI agree with the first part, but I also agree with the change.
Meep Man3 votesIf they made it deal 70% damage, that would deal less damage than a normal basic attack.
Stiv12341 votesWas searching for this comment.
SKOBODO2 votesThe Q nerf seems fine to me, but what about the W nerf? Is her early W damage really that OP?
Onireaper2 votes@RIOT The problem here is, an ADC regardless of their Kit is an ADC. they are supposed to be able to clear a lane, kill a tower and deal a large amount of damage at the cost of utility and defense. if you make an ADC with a basis built on utility ("the sheer amount of CC she brings") then you are creating an AD based support and not a true ADC.
That being said; make her auto attack slow higher, say 40%. then make it only apply every 3 seconds or something. that way she cant perma slow someone but you can leave her damage (what an ADC does) alone.
Starcall Casey1 votesIT is a tool tip change, Not an actual gameplay change, everything that she is now, is the same as she will be after this tooltip change.
Magma Lux Mid2 votesNot true. You will deal normal damage to turrets instead of the (overall) increased damage the flurry gives you. Live functionality is just that you can't stack it on turrets. Stacking on the minion wave, then unloading 5 stacks on the turret seemed even stronger than Jinx's turret shred.
Bradley Dragon1 votestwitch has a 55% win rate. higher then ashe. ashe actually went down a rank. i dont call that a buff
Mandang01 votesThat's all Tris has going for her, so I'd hope she does a better job of it than Ashe. Jinx should also excel in that category, but she seems to excel in a lot of categories, so I can see complaints against her. Ashe's strength should be utility, not pushing or DPS (Of course, I'm speaking relative to other ADCs. As an ADC herself, Ashe should excel in DPS compared to other roles).
LtHoiz1 votesWhen would people realize Ashe's ult would only stun ONE target for ONE second in short range and it does MAGIC DAMAGE which deal 600 damage only
BodyByDave1 votesHmm, I love playing Trist and hate playing Jinx, but I guess it's more because I value the knockback ultimate/ability to disrupt enemy plans. I will also say Tristana's tower smashing ability surprasses Jinx by far.
Mannysmoker1 votesThat Q dmg is kinda ludicrous, if you are not fed enough trying to 1v1 
is pretty dumb with the new Q.....and they need to tune down the dmg it does to towers cuz she literally eat them post 9....
