Buff Liandry's Torment

Darth Pixy Misa·Apr 7, 2015·68 votes·6,161 views

Right now Liandry's Torment is 2900, is not a gold efficient item, and no one buys it.

Riot should buff Liandry's Torment to this:

Liandry's Torment +60 ability power +300 health Passive UNIQUE PASSIVE – EYES OF PAIN: +15 magic penetration UNIQUE PASSIVE: Dealing spell damage applies a damage-over-time effect that deals bonus magic damage equal to 2% of the target's current health per second for 3 seconds. This bonus damage is doubled against movement-impaired units and capped at 100 damage per second vs. monsters.

Item cost 2600g (682g) 1483+435+682 Sell value 2030g Recipe still Haunting Guise + Amplifying Tome

121 Comments

RogueWillApr 7, 201520 votes

Liandry's is sorta like item 3115 or item 3100 the champions that use it already buy it and works wonders on them. The rest of champions shouldn't even consider getting it.

Sinister SnailApr 7, 20158 votes

{quoted}

Liandry's is sorta like or the champions that use it already buy it and works wonders on them. The rest of champions shouldn't even consider getting it.

I very much agree with this. For some examples, Liandry is for Vel'koz, nashors for azir, lichbane for fizz, and buffing any of those items to make them viable on other champions would make them silly OP on those who already use them well.

rebound2Apr 7, 20158 votes

Nashor's Tooth for Azir?

I hope you know the passive doesn't work on his soldiers.

Lord DolphinmanApr 7, 201516 votes

{quoted}

Nashor's Tooth for Azir?

I hope you know the passive doesn't work on his soldiers.

I hope you know that Azir's soliders' attack speed is based on 100% of Azir attack speed.

Thus nasdor tooth increase the soldier's attack speed by at least 50% attack speed. Along with that 20% cdr that also give Azir of at least another addition 25% more attack speed due to his passive.

So it's a good item overall for Azir.

MorsigilApr 7, 20156 votes

You also get the 60 AP to add to those soldier's damage as well as your other abilities.. Sure he doesn't get the magic damage on-hit when using his soldiers but he gets everything else. There is not a single other item in the game that gives all of those stats at the same time and he wants all of them.

AviousApr 7, 20153 votes

I used to play Azir alot before the nerfs and I can say it's a great item on him. Gives him exactly what he needs and despite the passive not working it's still gold efficient. Just dont't build it first.

GaleWinUnleashedApr 7, 20152 votes

It doesn't have to. Nashor's Tooth has amazing stats for Azir, even though his soldiers don't get any benefit from the on-hit effect. He get 50% attack speed, 20% CDR, 60 AP, and an additional 25% attack speed due to his passive. Even without the on-hit damage, Nashor's Tooth is still an extremely good item for Azir.

JamnonApr 7, 20151 votes

I like item 3115 on Varus but yea thats off meta.

junglerboy16Apr 8, 20154 votes

AP Varus is actually kind of sleeper OP right now because he melts tanks so well with W stacks when he has 500+ AP (30%+ Max HP damage per triple proc).

He and Malz are both great against tanks, especially since they can self peel really well.

JamnonApr 8, 20151 votes

Yea he is sleeper OP, but he is incredibly immobile. Worse than Syndra . I LOVE item 3085 on him. I tried out item 3023 for some... weak mobility. Its actually not terrible on him but not ideal.

junglerboy16Apr 8, 20152 votes

I usually pick up a Lich bane (because his pattern of Stack>Spell>stack>spell deals a lot of Lich bane procs) which helps his mobility, also grabbing furor or alacrity can help a lot. I haven't tried twin shadows, but it could work pretty well. Lumen's Echo is also an option for a more MS based build (and makes your Q pokes actually hurt again as AP Varus).

JamnonApr 8, 20151 votes

Have you tried out item 3508 or item 3042 on him? I like essence esp bc of the CDR but it feels so ... meh. I feel like by the time I get it, I dont need it anymore and its better to spend gold that on other items.

Idk.

junglerboy16Apr 9, 20152 votes

Yeah, I don't really like either of those on AD or AP Varus.

Essence reaver is ok, but CDR is only so good on him (since he isn't a burst ADC who relies on having all spells up all the time, but rather uses spells to proc marks, land harass, and disengage a fight). I agree that by the time you finish it it feels like you don't need it anymore.

Muramana is an all around bad item on him imo; he doesn't stack it quickly, doesn't have abilities that proc the passive damage, and doesn't need that huge of a mana pool to function properly. Basically, most of what makes Muramana a good item goes to relative waste on Varus.

If playing as AP Varus, just get an Athene's or Morrellonomicon instead, they more than cover his mana issues.

OrbvApr 8, 20152 votes

To be fair though, Syndra can still move while casting any of her 4 abilities. Poor Morde Mordekaiser can't even do that :(. Why hasn't he been deleted? It hurts to see his icon and never want to touch it.

The LovelessApr 9, 20151 votes

silly op? not at all.

ZarxisApr 7, 201511 votes

I believe Liandry's Torment should have a flat amount of DoT damage. A small amount (ex: 8 health per second), but an amount nonetheless. It should be able to kill extremely low-health targets. For reference, Liandry's would do 36 damage to a target that has 1800 health. That same target would have to go below approximately 450 health for 8-health-per-second-minimum-damage Liandry's to "bottom out" and do the minimum damage.

More controversial, but reasonable, changes: A slight increase in AP would also be very beneficial. Adding an AP ratio to the burn might also be worth looking into now that high-health tanks are more prevalent. Liandry's is currently more favored by AP bruisers/tanks that have movement-impairing CCs in their kits; it would be nice to give more potential benefits to poke champions that could use a stronger %health DoT to whittle down tanks.

Sinister SnailApr 7, 20155 votes

{quoted}

I believe Liandry's Torment should have a flat amount of DoT damage. A small amount (ex: 8 health per second), but an amount nonetheless. It should be able to kill extremely low-health targets. For reference, Liandry's would do 36 damage to a target that has 1800 health. That same target would have to go below approximately 450 health for 8-health-per-second-minimum-damage Liandry's to "bottom out" and do the minimum damage.

More controversial, but reasonable, changes: A slight increase in AP would also be very beneficial. Adding an AP ratio to the burn might also be worth looking into now that high-health tanks are more prevalent. Liandry's is currently more favored by AP bruisers/tanks that have movement-impairing CCs in their kits; it would be nice to give more potential benefits to high-health poke champions that could use a stronger %health DoT to whittle down tanks.

Upvoted. It could use a bit more kill power, instead of just chunking down hp for someone else to ~~steal~~ secure.

SpiritGearApr 7, 20158 votes

but the whole point of the items to to poke down tanky health stacker and its called Liandry's torment Not Liandry's Death also giving it kill potential would make SO MANY AP POKE CHAMPS OP it would be the new Fizz W but on every champ

MigrañaboyApr 8, 20152 votes

{quoted}

I believe Liandry's Torment should have a flat amount of DoT damage. A small amount (ex: 8 health per second), but an amount nonetheless. It should be able to kill extremely low-health targets. For reference, Liandry's would do 36 damage to a target that has 1800 health. That same target would have to go below approximately 450 health for 8-health-per-second-minimum-damage Liandry's to "bottom out" and do the minimum damage.

More controversial, but reasonable, changes: A slight increase in AP would also be very beneficial. Adding an AP ratio to the burn might also be worth looking into now that high-health tanks are more prevalent. Liandry's is currently more favored by AP bruisers/tanks that have movement-impairing CCs in their kits; it would be nice to give more potential benefits to poke champions that could use a stronger %health DoT to whittle down tanks.

If the DoT damage scales is very unlikely that it'll get and AP increase, but would be nice. I thought that this item was oriented toward dealing good damage against tanks if you have poking and spammability.

HawkefireApr 8, 20157 votes

Torment is an incredibly strong item, and has some very strong synergy with some champions. Giving any form of large buff to torment would probably be a very bad idea, and honestly I don't think it needs any true buffs.

The only thing that torment needs is a QoL buff: in the form of a (very low) minimum damage.

Garlyle WildsApr 8, 20151 votes

This.

The major competition for Liandry's is, of course, item 3135 . That said, Liandry's actually has a habit of adding more damage in practice than Void Staff does, unless you're dealing with stupid high MR, stupid low HP (aka 'how did you not kill them in the first place' level low), or are only bursting out your full QWER at once. And that's before synergies with Rylai's/Slows/DoTs.

WydiwygApr 8, 20152 votes

It really depends. I (somewhat) calculated that for a couple of situations, specifically for Zyra. Copy&Paste from reddit for everyone interested:

Example: Late-game, your support Zyra with Deathcap, Morello, Sorc. Boots + Zhonyas, magic pen marks and AP quints has 435 AP* and 23 magic pen, the enemy tank is sitting on 4500 HP and 180 magic resist.

Option A) You buy a Void Staff. You now have 435+1.3x70=526 AP. Your lvl 5 Q deals 210+65%AP magic damage, being 551.9 raw damage. 180 MR-35% (Void Staff passive)-23 magic pen=94 effective MR on the enemy tank, leading to a 100x(94/(100+94))=~48,45% damage reduction, which translates to ~284.5 actual damage on your Q to the tank.

Option B) You buy Liandrys. You now have 435+1.3x50=500 AP. Your lvl 5 Q now deals 535 raw damage while the tank has 180-37.8=~142 effective MR, which is a 100*(142/(100+142))=~58.68% damage reduction, meaning that your Q deals ~221.06 damage to the enemy. Now comes Liandry's second passive, dealing 3 ticks of 2% current health in magic damage.

1st tick: Our hypothetical tank has 4500-221.06=4278.94 HP, 2% of this being 85.58 damage. Reduced by 58.68%, this ends up dealing another ~35.36 damage.

2nd tick: 4278.94-35.36=4243.58. 4243.58/100x2=~84.87 damage. After reduction: Another ~35.07 damage.

3rd tick: 4243.58-35.07=4208.51.4208.51/100x2=~84.17 damage. After reduction: ~34.78 damage.

The tank now has 4173.73 health left. 4500-4173.73=326.27 damage dealt with Liandry's Torment..which is 41.77 damage more than the Void Staff route. Since Zyra's E is a movement-impairing spell which doubles the % health damage, the effect would even be better when using that spell.

[...] it's ultimately hard to calculate anything damage-related in a game with so many eventualities. Tank masteries such as "Evasive" reduce your burst damage, "Swiftness" reduces the Vine Lasher slow which in turn halves the Liandry's damage for a tick. Another question is how many spells you are actually able to cast (and hit) during a fight and how relevant burst is in comparison to DoTs.

On a late-game Sivir with 1000/2000 HP left and 70 MR through Guardian Angel, the Void Staff Q deals 450.52 damage, the Liandry's Q deals 404.67 damage plus 26.62 dmg through DoTs (without any masteries/impairment/whatnots).

[...] Liandry's isn't that bad either, especially not if enemies have lots of health, if your team has multiple movement-impairing effects, if you need the additional health provided by Liandry's Torment, if your team has a champion with resets/executes to finish off low-health targets, if "wearing enemies down" is part of your strategy (e.g. for extended sieges or even ARAMs) and/or the enemy team doesn't primarily stack MR. Neither Void Staff nor Liandry's is inherently worse than the other. Effects of both are so situational that it's somewhat impossible to determine the better option in a given scenario on the fly, but..well..if consistent burst is what you value the most, then by all means, get Void Staff.

This obviously doesn't factor in other champions such as Malzahar or Teemo that are hard to imagine without Liandry's or Leblanc or Annie where it seems like a pretty bad idea in general due to how their kits are meant to work. Liandry's benefits also decrease quite a bit once the enemies are low on HP. But I'm generally fairly satisfied about item 3151 's strength given the right circumstances. It is, however, not necessarily a must-buy over Void Staff - not in this still fairly assassin/squishy heavy solo queue meta anyways.

(* I initially miscalculated that. Had to recalculate it all over again item 3070 )

Sailor MintApr 7, 20156 votes

The passive is only good on the champions who already buy it. Champions who don't have room for Luden's Echo aren't any more interested in Liandry's.

SaiannaApr 7, 20156 votes

Imo item 3151 passive should have some base damage along with % current health. Nothing fancy.. Maybe 10? Because watching your prey running away with just 1 HP is... Argh

SpiritGearApr 7, 20152 votes

That would make it like an ignite and that would be pretty darn strong even with 1 base damage considering is a tormenting item rather than a kill securing now for more gold with would make sense

SaiannaApr 7, 20151 votes

Most you'll get from item 3151 is 4 ticks (3 for teemos R). That's 40 damage + 4x 2% (tad less each tick actually) current hp. While Lizards buff or old [removed] item spirit of the lizard dealt more than 40dmg as DoT from 1 hit and it was true damage.

So.. Liandry's proc should be buffed even slightly

ThefriendlyorcApr 7, 20151 votes

You get 4 ticks from Singed poison too. But he's pretty much the only one who builds it.

SaiannaApr 7, 20152 votes

(Ap) Teemo has to build item 3151 . It was fault for nerfing Teemos R by 0.3 ap scalling, so now he has to use it to deal similar damage to preferfed 0.8 ap ratio on his R..

Sidenote: It's funny that Seji playerbase bitches about her slight nerfs due to item 3751 , when Teemo players were hit like twice as hard because of item 3151 without any compensation.

SolaxoApr 7, 20154 votes

[{quoted}](name=Katrina Steiner,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=5WrvRN06,comment-id=,timestamp=2015-04-07T16:40:22.941+0000)

Right now Liandry's Torment is 2900, is not a gold efficient item, and no one buys it.

Sure, I see it in half of my games. What are you smoking

Celeste BenalApr 8, 20153 votes

https://youtu.be/s7vhTVAbV5w http://leagueoflegends.wikia.com/wiki/List_of_champions%27_magic_resistance

Every champ starts with either 30MR and gains zero per level, or 32.1 and gains 1.25/lvl, which puts them at 53.4 at level 18. So vs Jinx, who gains and builds no MR and typically Berserker's Boots, yes, you would do true damage if you took item 3020 + item 3151 .

Vs a tank with 100 bonus MR, 15 flat MPen simply doesn't do much. Flat MPen is best when your opponents have low MR to begin with. But AP items are always going to give a higher percentage damage increase earlier. This is why items with both AP and Pen/Red are so good.

Using CPT Pants' example, lets compare Liandry's, Zhonyas, Void Staff, and Abyssal Scepter for a first AP item. A this point I need to point out that the DoT from Liandry's ticks in half-second increments. So the correct formula will show .01*6 to represent this. Damage figures are rounded top the nearest whole number.

: (120+120)x.6=144. 144x100/(100+30-0)=111.
: (120+50)x.6=102. 1070x.01x6=64.2. 102+64.2=166.2. 166.2x100/(100+30-15)=145.
: (120+70)x.6=114. 114x100/(100+30x(1-.35))=95.
: (120+70)x.6=114. 114x100/(100+30-20)=104.
: (120+156)x.6=166. 166x100/(100+30-0)=128.

So much for flat MPen/Red early. AP reigns. But what happens when you are going vs a lvl 18 tank with 3000 raw HP and 100 bonus MR?

: 144x100/(100+53.4+100-0)=57.
: 3000x.01x6=180. 180+102=282. 282x100/(100+53.4+100-15)=118.
: 114x100/(100+(53.4+100)x(1-.35))=57
: 114x100/(100+53.4+100-20)=49.
: 166x100/(100+53.4+100)=66.

Liandry's health-based bonus damage is huge, roughly doubling your damage despite having only 15 flat MPen. Vs lower HP non-tanky champs it also has a nice MPen number and some AP so that it is effective there as well. The numbers I used here do NOT consider the effects of CC on Liandry's DoT burn damage.

Also, the order of precedence on Magic Pen and Reduction is Flat Reductions (Abyssal), %Red (?), %Pen (Void Staff), and finally Flat Pen (boots/Liandry's). So the combination of Void Staff, Liandry's, and Sorc Boots is very effective for getting the most magic damage possible.

(120+50+70)x.6=144. (144+180)x100/(100+153.4x.65-15)=175.4. That's about a 50% increase in applied damage just by buying Void Staff. No boots. If you add in the 15MPen from Sorc Boots it goes up to 191 damage.

Liandry's DoT effect has a couple down-sides. It does not stack. It only refreshes. So bursting someone will only refresh the DoT with each spell, negating a great deal of its bonus damage. So CPT Pants is right to say it is best used by pokey champs as frequently as once every 3 seconds, like Karthus . I would never build Liandry's on an assassin. It would probably work well on Skarner, too because of its synergy with Cinderhulk. But he benefits more from AD. (See item 3071 on PBE.)

It also does damage based on current HP, rather than total HP. So again, its best when used as poke to get that tank's HP down first, and then let your carry finish them off.

On the plus side, the double damage procs from AoE spell damage. So any long range ability spamming champ can really put the hurt on an HP stacking champ. With the advent of Cinderhulk, I would not be surprised to start seeing more of Liandry's and AP poke champs like Karthus and Soraka.

Couple interesting things I've read about Liandry's: Rylai's procs it's doubled damage. Spell Vamp has full effect with Liandry's bonus damage. Unfortunately, 20% ( item 3152 ) of 4% is exactly .8%. So in the above case of doing 180/360 damage to Jinx, it would heal for 36/72 HP over 3 seconds in half-second ticks. Not exactly exciting.

So, Liandry's is actually pretty decent. But the meta to date has not favored the champs that benefit the most from it. And those champs are going for things like RoA + Seraph's Embrace because they have good and useful build-paths, have good stats when fully built, and due to the stacking over time requirement.

Xela SyabApr 7, 20152 votes

Works great for tanks, i think thats what it was made for.

Sinister SnailApr 7, 20152 votes

I like the idea of it combining out of an aether wisp. It'd get a bit more utility, though it might be stepping on Luden's toes.

GrompishApr 7, 20152 votes

Does anyone else feel like a buff like this would skyrocket Malzahar into OP land? I mean... I main Malzahar and I hardly ever have bad games and I buy Liandry's every game. It's actually my core build. If this was buffed and given base damage, increased % damage , or reduced cost... I would probably never get to play Malzahar middle since he would most likely be picked or banned! :'( :'(

The SoulforgedApr 8, 20152 votes

They could prolly also double the %dmg per second.

CrazedPorcupineApr 8, 20152 votes

Just change the recipe to include blasting wand instead of amp tome, and up the AP from 50 to 80 AP.

Right now, People don't take it because it doesn't grant the AP to make it worth taking, Especially since it has less AP than both Grail and Morellonomicon. People aren't going to take an item that doesn't give them any worthwhile stats.

Rumble BotApr 8, 20152 votes

I agree; it's a bad item.

OrbvApr 7, 20151 votes

For Malzahar Singed Karma it's fine.

For Vladimir , Swain , Anivia it's a bit expensive with present stats.

But the passive should not change. It serves it's purpose. You want to whittle down enemies. If your abilities can't kill them without the passive, it's not the item's problem.

It Hertz When IPApr 8, 20151 votes

I feel like this and Rylai's are almost core items for Vlad. He's a very poke-based champ IMO and having no mana means I can get this after item 3145 and gradually zone my lane opponent.

iamthegoatofwarApr 8, 20151 votes

on vlad you go for hextech 1st...

It Hertz When IPApr 8, 20152 votes

Hence why I said "I can get this **after ** item 3145 ". You know, after... meaning not first...

OrbvApr 8, 20151 votes

I cannot tell you how much it KILLS ME, KILLS ME to play with a vlad who does not build item 3116 . People will always rush an hourglass or rabadon's for the damage. But when it comes to Vlad, having any ounce of CC increases his kill potential by 80%. In the past 4 months I've been paired with, I believe, 11 Vladimirs. None built it, and I never won with a Vlad on my team post season 1 (unless I was playing him).

When your champion has 0 chase/stick potential, especially when every ability of his causes him to stop moving, they have to not be clueless and find a solution for it.

It Hertz When IPApr 8, 20152 votes

Tides of Blood stops his movement? I hadn't even noticed.

Yeah, after WotA and CDR boots I always get Rylai's. I swear, that item was made for him, gives him 1 targeted and 2 PBAoE slows with stats that mesh perfectly with his passive.

Kitten of EvilApr 7, 20151 votes

Maybe change the DoT effect to:

Bonus magic damage equal to 10 + 1.5% of the target's current health per second? The lack of finishing power makes me sad.

KaisadiIIaApr 8, 20152 votes

Did the enemy Yasuo escaped with exactly 1 HP? DON'T WORRY! Liandry's torment will burn him down for 0 damage each second over 4 seconds!

lightdragoon88Apr 8, 20151 votes

[{quoted}](name=Katrina Steiner,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=5WrvRN06,comment-id=,timestamp=2015-04-07T16:40:22.941+0000)

Right now Liandry's Torment is 2900, is not a gold efficient item, and no one buys it.

Cassiopeia Malzahar Vladimir

Champion SkinApr 8, 20152 votes

Why would Vlad bother buying Liandries? He has no slows/CC to double the burn and the stats are innefficent so it would probably be better to build an item which gives more AP/HP to make use of his passive and to do more damage so you heal more (from spell vamp and Q heal)

lightdragoon88Apr 8, 20152 votes

You don't play Vlad much do you?

One of Vlad staple items to get, alongside item 3152 and item 3065 is item 3116

SalidfingersApr 8, 20151 votes

I thought Vlad had a built in slow on his W

Champion SkinApr 8, 20151 votes

He does have a slow on his W it is just that using it as a slow is a bad idea unless you need to get away or doge something at the same time you need to slow someone You are sacrificing 20% of your current health it better be worth it to slow that person if all you are doing is using it as a slow (and you are also using your only escape ability making you highly vulnerable)

SalidfingersApr 8, 20151 votes

Laning phase i can understand. Sometimes you can just use it in a team fight to wait for CD's or Make sure they don't get away if you have a lead.

If we are that late int he game wouldn't you have rylias and torment anyways