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Why Tank Items Suck

FCJAAAAGOOOO··9 votes·4,152 views

1.) Buying them in lane is a wash.

item 3068 is the only exception to this and only tanks and ex-bruisers can feasibly invest in it. Buying any purely defensive items accomplishes nothing in lane. Any champion that first buys a tank item hits like a wet noodle, pushes like an enchanter and tickles objectives. In a meta so focused on accomplishing things quickly, these items accomplish nothing early on bar making champions more annoying to takedown. They could use anything to support them in this blazing fast meta - bonus on-hit minion damage like Doran's items, bonus tower damage, anything. Even a pinch of Adaptive Force would go a long way for some of these items as it would make laning with them much more viable.

2.) Not one of them has even remotely cost-effective stats.

Not a single one; arguably even including their passives and actives many of them still aren't worth their gold. Thornmail's stats are worth a whopping 2267 for its 2900 price tag - not even 75% of its value. No other items are remotely like this - I just looked up Redemption while double-checking this as I don't play support and it is apparently worth over 107% of its cost in pure stats, not counting its passive or teamwide heal. Giving Thornmail 50 more health or 10 more armor won't tear LoL asunder and bring back tank Kha'Zix!

3.) They accomplish nothing on their own.

Cooldown rotations dominate all tiers of play save maybe Bronze and Iron. Not dying to an enemy team's rotation requires a whole lot more work than it used to. Despite that, the items that are supposed to be specifically good at keeping champions alive are completely ineffective at it by themselves on virtually every champion. There are no tank items for dueling. There are no tank items for taking X less damage from target champions. There are no tank items with actives that are self-heals/shields. The only general exceptions are item 3053 , item 3193 and item 3715 , none of which the majority of tanks themselves can afford to invest in while staying relevant unlike champions who barely even touch pure defensive items.

Tank items don't need an overhaul - they need a boost, and there needs to be more of them. This is not about tank meta; this is about choosing between getting one-shot and hitting like an old grandma. People buying more defensive stats should never feel like they got gypped or like they're trolling save buying MR vs. all AD teams. Maybe it will take until Season 11 or beyond to fix this but hopefully not nearly that long; these are changes that have had a long time coming already.

15 Comments

Clown Parade5 votes

Eh, the problem is more than that.

Their stat budget is just bad. Riot doesn't want games to be fast for the Chinese market, so everyone needs to die instantly.
Damage items give carries spikes. Two item spike, three item spike, rageblade spike, etc.

There's not a tank equivalent. "Oh, I got my Sunfire, this is a huge power spike."

A huge problem with tank items is they have VERY little cdr on them. Damage dealer items, ESPECIALLY mage items, have CDR coming out the wazoo. Most Mages have 40% cdr at an item and a half.

Another big problem is that penetration items (which are already hugely efficient goldwise vs people that don't build resistance) are superior to any of the resistance items themselves.

Lastly, resistances are flat when accounting for pen items AND the fact that there is true damage E V E R Y W H E R E in the game now. And half of it is % health based.

The ONLY time a tank becomes meta anymore is if they do so much damage that they might as well be another 360-noscope-headshot champion

Ragnaveil4 votes

[{quoted}](name=Clown Parade,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=kiGvNxwO,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2019-11-09T04:11:25.220+0000) A huge problem with tank items is they have VERY little cdr on them.

Not true, they exist in a very healthy manner for what CDR should be. The problem is again, the cost efficency and the garbage design most of the tank items have. FH is pretty useless outside of being a AS slower, but AS has been increased (and theres runes that give AS) on items and stats that it ends up being useless outside of Malphite. IBG is a gold sink for tanks since the scaling of the proc is abysmal (just 100% bAD with the zone scaling off of armor). Ez is practically the sole user of it. Abyssal is a Cata item, so the mana and Cata passive are useless on manaless champs, making it even more of a gold sink.

Every class' items just needs a hard reboot so the problems and counter-intuitive designs can get fixed.

Great Ozymandius1 votes

The irony about this is that Riot could have developed tank items that close out games faster, but chose not to.

Ohmwrecker was a weak item for its entire history. They could have given it a shield to all allied under an enemy tower once activated under an enemy tower. They could have buffed the shield until Ohmwrecker started getting a decently high pickrate. Now, there would be a viable tank item that strongly encouraged turret dives and strongly blunted turtling as a strategy. Games would end faster and tank items would be a part of that.

But they didn't even try to make ohmwrecker viable. I have no idea what they are thinking.

Hügö1 votes

Riot doesn't want games to be fast for the Chinese market, so everyone needs to die instantly.

And now with china restricting game time to 90 mins per day for minors it won't change.

Chainman34 votes

"Buying any purely defensive items accomplishes nothing in lane. " It accomplishes keeping you alive under the pretense that you're not trying to constantly fight your lane opponent.

"Any champion that first buys a tank item hits like a wet noodle, pushes like an enchanter and tickles objectives" So you want to buy defensively and do dmg, seems kind of contradictory.

"Even a pinch of Adaptive Force would go a long way for some of these items as it would make laning with them much more viable." If you've played any team based builder games, you should understand that you dont build dps on your healers or tanks in spots where you can build defensively. Because their role on your team would be to heal and tank and offensive stats on those units would do little to nothing especially for the role theyre trying to fill. Having more adaptive force or dmg to towers isnt going to make your cc last longer, or make it come off cooldown faster. The minimal amount of of return on the invested stats just isnt worth it IF you're trying to tank.

"Not one of them has even remotely cost-effective stats." Sunfire cape- Paying 50g for the passive being increased from 6-23 to 26-43 dmg. Bami's passive is around a 360g passive and you're doubling that output for about 50g more you get 700g worth of a passive. Ill put the math here: ruby crystal = 150 hp for 400g thats 2.667 gold per 1hp bami's cinder = 200 hp for 900g 2.6667 * 200 = 533.33 gold 900g-533g = 367g = bami's passive

Now for sunfire's math: Sunfire gives = 60 armor 425 health and the passive chain vest = 40 armor for 800g so 20g per 1 armor 6020 = 1200g we know from above 2.667 gold per 1 hp 2.667 425 = 1133g 1200 + 1133 = 2333g total cost of sunfire = 2750 2750 - 2333 = 417g We know bami passive is worth 367g 417 - 367 = 50g

So for the increase from 6-23 to 23-43 dmg (which is more than double dmg early and scales to just under double the dmg later) you're paying 50g more, that isnt cost effective to you?

Now lets look at thorn mail 80 armor + 250 health + reflect passive + atk spd slow passive As you said the stats are 2267g 2900-2267 = 633g Lets see how much the passive's are worth: Bramble 1000g 35 armor + passive 35* 20g/armor = 700g reflect passive = 300g Wardens 1000g 40*20 = 800g atk speed slow passive = 200g

Now the slow passive on thorn mail and wardens is the same so now we just need the reflect passive Thorn mail 2900g 2900 -2267 = 633g - 200 = 433g Bramble passive is 3+10% armor is reflected =300g Thorn mail passive is 25+ 10% armor =433g

433g-300 = 133g

So lets say you have only thornmail built thats 25+(0.180) = 33 dmg reflected Where bramble with 80 armor would deal 3 + (0.180) = 11 dmg reflected So thornmails passive with 80 armor is 3x as effective as brambles. Increase your dmg reflected by 2x the amount while only worth 133g more which is less than half the first 11 dmg the passive comes from.

In otherwords the first 11 dmg is worth 300g the next 22 dmg is worth 133g.

Not cost effective still?

"They accomplish nothing on their own." Thats why their job is to tank not deal dmg. Killing things isnt going to happen from tanking, why are you trying to take one role and make it do another role's job while also doing the tank role.

Note: Please put more effort into your post because from what I can see, I put more effort calculating and breaking down your post than you did proving your claims.

FCJAAAAGOOOO3 votes

{quoted}

Note: Please put more effort into your post because from what I can see, I put more effort calculating and breaking down your post than you did proving your claims.

There's like...nothing to my claims. My claims are 1+1=2. Sunfire Cape and Thornmail passives are not considered to be a champion stat.

Finished items are typically worth significantly more than their gold value - see that? That's not a claim at all; that's a fact. Sunfire and Thornmail's passives don't matter past laning phase in a huge number of scenarios - there goes another one. These items' raw stats - their HP, armor etc. - alongside their passives do not justify their finished item cost, just like many more tank items I haven't mentioned item 3083 item 3143 item 3742 item 3065 item 3194 among others - guess what this was.

Chainman32 votes

" Sunfire and Thornmail's passives don't matter past laning phase in a huge number of scenarios" This is your opinion not a fact. Lets get that straight.

"Sunfire Cape and Thornmail passives are not considered to be a champion stat." Then ask for the passives to be removed and compensated with stats instead. You wouldnt want that either.

"Finished items are typically worth significantly more than their gold value" What items are you comparing to?

"These items' raw stats - their HP, armor etc. - alongside their passives do not justify their finished item cost" This is again your opinion and may have others who share it. This is what i meant by saying put more effort in your post. You make a claim then have no support to that claim. I shouldnt have to go fishing for what justifies a finished cost of an item, if you're going to make that statement you should provide what would justify a finished cost for an item. +50 health on an item doesnt say what you consider to be justification for an item. Im speaking generally not "lets add 50 health to thorn mail".

Edit: Frozen heart: 2000g in armor + =533g in cooldown reduction + 560 gold in mana = 3093 gold in stats WITHOUT the cripple aura for 2700 gold. Is frozen heart cost efficient to you?

Sirsir5 votes

Thornmail is an effect driven item with ~75% gold efficiency.

Duskblade is an effect driven item with ~92% gold efficiency.

Sunfire is a stat driven item with an effect, with 84% gold efficiency. And you can't use its effect because the rest of the game is so damage heavy you die within 5 seconds even built full tank. No synergy with other tank items or effects.

I. Edge is a stat driven item with an effect, with ~112% gold efficiency. The effect has strong synergy with itself and other offensive items.

Tank items suck because

  1. all the runes are offensive (even half the Resolve tree), The top portion of the resolve tree has no defensive value whatsoever. 2nd row you have to pick between resistances or surviving lane.

  2. The game is all about snowballing, and tank items don't contribute to that. If you aren't fighting to win, you're losing. Stalemating lane is not good enough anymore, because they get more value from nothing happening farmville than you do. If you let them get 2 plates, or they deny you 2-3 waves of CS, they basically got a kill off you anyway. Which they then use to kill you through your tank stats, leaving them free to take more plates and deny more creeps.

  3. Tankbusting items and champ effects are too strong. Lets say you built Thornmail and Randuins. Dominiks cuts the cost effectiveness of Randuins from 85% to 67% AND Thornmail from ~75% to ~59%. Conqueror converts a sizeable amount of your damage to true. Half the competitive roster these days has either true or %hp damage.

Chainman31 votes

" And you can't use its effect because the rest of the game is so damage heavy you die within 5 seconds even built full tank. No synergy with other tank items or effects." This is your opinion not a fact. I would argue against this take for example.

item 3075 item 3068 item 3001

What tanks get from these items 350 hp + 425 hp + 250 hp = 1025 hp 80 armor + 60 armor = 140 armor 55 magic resist

dealing 25 + 14 magic dmg from thorn mail per hit = 39 dealing 25 + (1 * champion level) magic dmg per hit = at level 13 (around team fight time) = 38 magic dmg per second 39 +38 = 77 magic dmg per hit * passive of abyssal for 15% more magic dmg aura = 89 dmg per second/hit

lasting 5 seconds 89 * 5 = 445 dmg if you get this to hit 2-3 champions since it is an aura ability = 890 to 1335 dmg.

And all that is dmg "you cant use"?

Remmber this is without lifting a finger and you're doing 445-1335 dmg. No abilities, no autos, nothing on your part besides existing.

Thats also only 3 items in. And what do you still get from it well 1025 hp 140 armor and 55 magic resist to tank with.

As well as any dmg taken is given back in the form of mana and any mana spent heals you for 20% of the cost. Add in item 3065 for more healing or item 3083 for flat health to survive longer and if youre still being melted item 3047 item 3143 item 3026 to help your survival. If you have alot of health already investing in a item 3193 could work in your benefit.

So again im looking for stats and facts to back up claims not opinions or what players have argued for the longest time.

Edit: "I. Edge is a stat driven item with an effect, with 112% gold efficiency. The effect has strong synergy with itself and other offensive items." And frozen heart? Whats its gold efficiency? WITHOUT its passive its 115% gold efficient.

Sirsir4 votes

And frozen heart? Whats its gold efficiency? WITHOUT its passive its 115~% gold efficient.

Much of it is mana. For combat purposes it's only ~94% gold efficient. Compared to the ADC mana items, Essence Reaver is 120% gold efficient and Muramana is 138% gold efficient not even counting base mana in the AWE passive (admittedly it's a stacking item, and those are always inflated. you know who doesn't have a real stacking item? Tanks).

" And you can't use its effect because the rest of the game is so damage heavy you die within 5 seconds even built full tank. No synergy with other tank items or effects." This is your opinion not a fact.

It IS a fact and you can tell in any game there's a tank. See how long they last against a target with any sort of anti-tank.

I would argue against this take for example.

item 3001 item 3075 item 3068

What tanks get from these items 350 hp + 425 hp + 250 hp = 1025 hp 80 armor + 60 armor = 140 armor 55 magic resist

dealing 25 + 14 magic dmg from thorn mail per hit = 39 dealing 25 + (1 champion level) magic dmg per hit = at level 13 (around team fight time) = 38 magic dmg per second 39 +38 = 77 magic dmg per hit passive of abyssal for 15% more magic dmg aura = 89 dmg per second/hit

lasting 5 seconds 89 * 5 = 445 dmg if you get this to hit 2-3 champions since it is an aura ability = 890 to 1335 dmg.

And all that is dmg "you cant use"?

Remmber this is without lifting a finger and you're doing 445-1335 dmg. No abilities, no autos, nothing on your part besides existing

You seem to be throwing out a lot of numbers, with no real direction or logic as to how they apply in a real scenario. You aren't even taking MR into account. And you're giving yourself the best possible scenario. And you're putting SFs solid DPS in with TMs damage per hit, so you aren't actually "put more effort calculating and breaking down your post"

Fortunately I never said anything about Thornmail, and was specifically referring to Sunfire, which is VERY easy to calculate.

Base MR for ADCs is 30, resulting in ~23% reduced damage but +15% from Mask. Sunfire does up to 43 DPS. Adding in the shred from Mask thats a whopping 38 dps per target at max level!

As for Thornmail it's one of the better tank items despite its lack of cost effectiveness. If any of the other tank items were more cost effective it would be even better since it synergizes with other hard stats.

Also INB4 NERRRRRRRRRRRRRDS.gif

Chainman31 votes

"Much of it is mana. For combat purposes it's only ~94% gold efficient. " So 1, its still more gold efficient than duskblade 2. lets just remove the mana it gives then.

"It IS a fact and you can tell in any game there's a tank." I was referring to sunfire not being usuable is your opinion not a fact.

"You seem to be throwing out a lot of numbers, with no real direction or logic as to how they apply in a real scenario." lets break down what you're saying here, because i wasnt throwing out numbers so lets get into this paragraph to see what i threw out.

"And you're giving yourself the best possible scenario." The best possible scenario is a tank being next to an enemy champion especially if theyre melee as well?

"You aren't even taking MR into account." Because even if we apply MR to the number the dmg thats coming out by those items is that high. Much like when we look at an ad item, you'll say it has 55 ad you wont say 50% of that ad doesnt mean anything because armor. So i dont get the point in adding in MR or how it impacts this discussion.

"And you're putting SFs solid DPS in with TMs damage per hit" And ill explain why. An adc can auto at least once per second if not twice, and most other champions are around that time with some resets on auto attacks. This means calculating 5 thornmail procs in 5 seconds isnt unheard of so idk why you would think tanking 5 autos in 5 seconds is too much especially in a teamfight.

"Thornmail is an effect driven item with ~75% gold efficiency." "Fortunately I never said anything about Thornmail, and was specifically referring to Sunfire, which is VERY easy to calculate." I think that speaks for itself.

"Adding in the shred from Mask thats a whopping 38 dps per target at max level!" Alright over 5 seconds? Thats 190 dmg for only being there. You're not doing anything else. Just being there. Do the same for thornmail thats like a free 300 dmg for existing. And this is if we're only talking about 1 target. 2 targets = 600 dmg. 3 targets = 900 dmg. For a tank to be dealing that dmg just by standing still you think thats neglectable? This is without the tank using a single ability or putting an 1 auto attack and theyre doing 300 dmg at least. Ill say it again FOR NOTHING but existing.

Chainman31 votes

This post will be to answer your 2nd part about "Tank items suck because"

  1. Grasp gives health back and increases your max health. Overgrowth increases max health Revitalize increases shield power and healing amount second wind restores health when poked with a low cd time conditioning gives a good amount of armor and magic resist Guardian gives a shield to you and an ally standing by you/ And yet you state "all the runes are offensive (even half the Resolve tree)" Sure font of life doesnt make you tankier but it does make your team tankier over all by healing them.

  2. "The game is all about snowballing, and tank items don't contribute to that. If you aren't fighting to win, you're losing" Then if we go by what you're saying. CC doesnt contribute to dmg so champs with cc are weak. "Stalemating lane is not good enough anymore" This is an opinion "If you let them get 2 plates, or they deny you 2-3 waves of CS, they basically got a kill off you anyway" keyword "let them". They "deny you" through what means? Using their jungler? You arent just denied without having counter options (roaming, basing and getting back to lane to refresh your health and mana pool as well as then intiating a freeze). "they basically got a kill off you anyway." Even with a kill ahead, a team with a tank will win a teamfight against a team with a bruiser when both teams are playing properly. "Which they then use to kill you through your tank stats, leaving them free to take more plates and deny more creeps" a long sword difference where it can be alot doesnt spiral to this extent unless the player is refusing to their respect their opponent and both champions' limits.

  3. Well % hp dmg is still reduced by armor and magic resist so % hp cant be an argument used here. We're not arguing to make tanks unkillable. I think we can both agree that wouldnt be balanced. Im curious as to what champions in the competitive roster use true dmg, if you can name like 5 out of the "half of the competitive roster" you claimed.

"Conqueror converts a sizeable amount of your damage to true." I cant take this statement seriously. Not because of conqueror but because of what you stated earlier about thornmail and sunfire's passive being unusable later on in the game. Where you deal over 400 dmg those. But 8% true dmg is now a sizeable amount. 8% true dmg out of 5000 dmg is 400 true dmg. Thats equivalent to 8 auto attacks from an adc with little to no armor built. Which is about 4 seconds of dmg. Oddly enough they have to auto to get that 400 true dmg but when tanks get 400-1.3k dmg for existing its "unusable". Do you see the bias in your statements?

Sirsir3 votes

{quoted}

This post will be to answer your 2nd part about "Tank items suck because"

  1. Grasp gives health back and increases your max health. Overgrowth increases max health Revitalize increases shield power and healing amount second wind restores health when poked with a low cd time conditioning gives a good amount of armor and magic resist Guardian gives a shield to you and an ally standing by you/ And yet you state "all the runes are offensive (even half the Resolve tree)" Sure font of life doesnt make you tankier but it does make your team tankier over all by healing them.

Grasp, conditioning and Overgrowth are 'the good half' Guardian would be too but I hardly see it used... And you forgot Aftershock. conditional and temporary, but pretty effective.

Revitalize doesn't affect most tanks.

Second wind and Font of Life provide pathetic healing as the game goes on. Font heals for 1% of max HP, most tanks without an HP steroid cap out at somewhere around 4k. So every hit restores 20 HP per second.

Second wind is good for dealing with poke in lane phase, but in teamfights it's far too slow. 4% of MISSING HP over 10 seconds is only .4% of your missing health per second, roughly 16 HP/s using the 4k mark above... once you take a hit that leaves you at 1% health! Also how often do you engage fights at low HP as a tank?

Bone plating is OK in the lane phase, assuming the opponent can't poke it off you without committing.

Then there's Demolish, Shield bash, and Unflinching. Demolish performs a much needed push supplement. Unflinching is good but not directly tanky. Shield bash is... oddly not that great on lots of tanks. How many tanks have an actual shield?

Nope Alistar Amumu Braum Chogath DrMundo Garen Leona Maokai Ornn Rammus Sejuani Zac

Technically, BUT Galio Malphite Nunu

Yes, and on demand (ish) Nautilus Poppy Shen Sion Thresh Taric TahmKench

  1. "The game is all about snowballing, and tank items don't contribute to that. If you aren't fighting to win, you're losing" Then if we go by what you're saying. CC doesnt contribute to dmg so champs with cc are weak.

Are you even trying? I said it's about playing to win. Keeping your opponent from fighting back or running away when the jungler comes is huge for snowballing.

"Stalemating lane is not good enough anymore" This is an opinion

No it's a fact, again. due to the following

"If you let them get 2 plates, or they deny you 2-3 waves of CS, they basically got a kill off you anyway" keyword "let them". They "deny you" through what means? Using their jungler? You arent just denied without having counter options (roaming, basing and getting back to lane to refresh your health and mana pool as well as then intiating a freeze).

If you can't fight them you can't stop them from controlling the wave. What are you going to do when a darius is controlling the wave as a tank laner? Walk up to stop the freeze? Nope. CS under tower? Good luck. Back? And fall behind on more EXP and any chance at gold. Maybe you roam, you probably won't get the kill (in fact you shouldn't since you're the tank) and you lose out on a lot of EXP. Meanwhile they take plates CUZ YOU ROAMED.

"they basically got a kill off you anyway." Even with a kill ahead, a team with a tank will win a teamfight against a team with a bruiser when both teams are playing properly.

That's an opinion. There are far more factors to that than archetypes. Mostly being which team is fed.

And counting on both teams to play properly in soloQ? Good one! As a tank you're completely reliant on teammates to pull their weight. As a bruiser you can force splits or get picks on your own.

"Which they then use to kill you through your tank stats, leaving them free to take more plates and deny more creeps" a long sword difference where it can be alot doesnt spiral to this extent unless the player is refusing to their respect their opponent and both champions' limits.

Mostly true, I was just having Garen flashbacks...

  1. Well % hp dmg is still reduced by armor and magic resist so % hp cant be an argument used here.

Um, yeah. We can :)

We're not arguing to make tanks unkillable. I think we can both agree that wouldnt be balanced. Im curious as to what champions in the competitive roster use true dmg, if you can name like 5 out of the "half of the competitive roster" you claimed.

Counting % health, since that was the statement I made. And adding meaningful innate Shred: Camille Darius Aatrox Chogath Fiora Garen Gnar JarvanIV Kaisa Jhin Karthus Kayn (Red) Kled KogMaw Shyvana Trundle Varus Vi Vayne Yorick

I'm sure you'll disagree on what 'competitive' is so I'll add em all. The damage dealers, tanks aren't exactly deleting other tanks...

As well as the likes of MasterYi Who can build item 1419 item 3153 Conqueror and base true damage and delete tanks in literally 2 seconds. Almost anyone who can make solid use of BotRK or Liandries, since they can also use Last Whisper or Void Staff.

"Conqueror converts a sizeable amount of your damage to true." I cant take this statement seriously. Not because of conqueror but because of what you stated earlier about thornmail and sunfire's passive being unusable later on in the game. Where you deal over 400 dmg those. But 8% true dmg is now a sizeable amount. 8% true dmg out of 5000 dmg is 400 true dmg. Thats equivalent to 8 auto attacks from an adc with little to no armor built. Which is about 4 seconds of dmg. Oddly enough they have to auto to get that 400 true dmg but when tanks get 400-1.3k dmg for existing its "unusable". Do you see the bias in your statements?

Never said anything about Thornmail, and Sunfire IS LAUGHABLE. We're talking 40 DPS in melee range, in magic damage. 40 DPS when squishies breach 2k hp is nothing. And anyone who wants to be in melee range will have plenty more and far more resistances or lifesteal. Whereas 8% of a damage based character is A LOT of true damage on characters that were never meant to have it. On it's own it's not that much, but in concert with EVERYTHING ELSE it means tanks die too easily.

You're trying to act like you only have to account for one at a time, but that's not how it works.

Chainman31 votes

"Revitalize doesn't affect most tanks." "Incoming healing, incoming shielding, self healing and self shielding are increased by 10% while you are below 40% health." "PASSIVE: Grants Heal powerHybrid resistances icon 5% Heal and Shield Power." https://leagueoflegends.fandom.com/wiki/Revitalize

Not only being healed and shielded by teammates will help this, but locket, steraks, abyssal mask, malphite shield, maokai passive, nautilus shield, skarner shield, zac passive, mundo ult, alistar passive, shen passive shield, shen ult, poppy passive shield, nunu Q, Sion shield, gragas passive (if you want to count him wiki labels him as a tank but you'll probably find him under mage as well)

Lets see the champions we didnt talk about which can be considered tanks: Amumu Gnar Leona Sejuani Rammus Ornn

6 tanks out of the 14 thats less than half and you say it doesnt affect most tanks. And this isnt even going into the possible items they could buy to use it. Leona Ornn Sejuani Amumu Rammus can all use abyssal mask and locket effectively which is then applied to those items. So 40 on a champion in 1.75 seconds you can cc a target as a tank for how long? Around 3-5 seconds. Maokai reaches 5 seconds but he's also one of the more cc heavy tanks like naut and sej. So thats 2 procs per rotation through your skills. 80 health every 3 seconds potentially to 4 people is 320 health every 3 seconds. If you have 2 people running revitalize with it thats 20% more healing to the person who autos taking it up to 96 and the 5% heal power from revitalize brings it up to roughly 100 hp every 3 seconds. Again this is free healing. You're not casting a healing ability you're casting your regular cc ability and its healing teammates.

"Second wind is good for dealing with poke in lane phase, but in teamfights it's far too slow." I agree with this but it does keep you healthy in lane which serves its purpose. If you want a more centered immediate rune you can go conditioning or bone plating (former is better for mid to late game).

"Are you even trying? I said it's about playing to win. Keeping your opponent from fighting back or running away when the jungler comes is huge for snowballing."

It was a sarcastic comment to tell you that cc is important and as a tank thats what you bring while being too tanky to burst in a 1v1 assuming you're playing correctly and respecting your opponent throughout the game.

If you can't fight them you can't stop them from controlling the wave. What are you going to do when a darius is controlling the wave as a tank laner? Heres a list of things you can do, i shouldnt need to say it but since you asked.

  1. Roam, build a lead elsewhere on the map and force darius to break his freeze or put his team behind.
  2. call your jungler top to break the freeze by shoving it in with you this way darius cant 1v2 (unless he outplays both of you).
  3. Invade the enemy jungle with your jungle, take scuttle, grab plants and set up vision during this time. If your tanky enough you can set up a dive.
  4. Your bringing up darius who is a counter to tanks and im giving you 3 counter options. Problem with many tank players is they dont know understand HOW to tank. Its very easy to dive a darius with mid and jungle while a tank locks him down and tanks tower. If you're talking about earlier in the game before 1 item the other 2 options are available.

So i guess that proves its an opinion since i gave you what you could do about that.

Oh and before i forget to rebuttal this, And fall behind on more EXP and any chance at gold. Maybe you roam, you probably won't get the kill (in fact you shouldn't since you're the tank) and you lose out on a lot of EXP. Meanwhile they take plates CUZ YOU ROAMED.

1.If walking out of vision causes your laner to push the wave then just walk out of vision and they'll shove and you'll catch the entire wave. 2. If they dont push when you're not seen and continue freezing until you show up elsewhere then they wont get platings once you show up because they'll need to push 3 waves to get to your tower. And it only takes 8 seconds to go from mid to top lane. So you'd be back to catch the wave and maybe even get help from your mid laner to kill them.

Apparently the only thing your concerned about is YOUR gold not your team's gold. This is a team game, a benefit to the team especially in mid can end up controlling the entire map for the rest of the game.

"That's an opinion. There are far more factors to that than archetypes. Mostly being which team is fed." Idk why you ignored the "Even with a kill ahead, a team with a tank will win a teamfight against a team with a bruiser when both teams are playing properly." Saying one team is ahead 300g covers your entire rebuttal. An extra long sword does not make up for the cc provided by a tank vs a bruiser assuming the tank has the game sense to know when to intiate and who to cc. Because as you should know tanks are far better at intiating than bruisers. Kled is probably the only one that i can actually say can rival a tank as a bruiser but thats because his mount and dismount mechanic combined with his obnoxious ultimate movespeed gains.

"Um, yeah. We can :)" For the hp% argument. Another way of saying is "champions shouldnt be allowed to do dmg because it does dmg. Everything should be flat numbers so health stackers could tank forever. Why buy anything besides 1 armor item 1 magic resist item and 3 warmogs with boots. 5-6k health taking 400 dmg per hit means worst case scenario for the tank in a 1v1 with an auto based champion means theyre surviving 13 seconds. Which in that time the auto based champion would probably die assuming thornmail or sunfire. It'd be impossible to get over large health pool champions fast enough without hp% dmg.

"Im curious as to what champions in the competitive roster use true dmg, if you can name like 5 out of the "half of the competitive roster" you claimed." This is what i said about listing champs and you decided to distort the comment and add % health champs in. Gnar 48.71% winate Fiora 51.48% winrate on an 8.8% pickrate Chogath 49.36% winrate Vayne top sits at a 50.78% winrate on a 2.3% pickrate. Garen 50.24% winate on 7.7% pickrate

I didnt include pick rates on gnar and chogath because theyre already low weeding them out of the "issue true dmg champs"

Garen id agree with you is annoying but more because of his rework breaking him, much like most champs come out when riot first releases them. He should be balanced enough soon.

Fiora had that towers change which the whole community knew wasnt needed but for some reason riot did it anyways for worlds. Cant really explain that one to you.

So we're left with vayne which I wouldnt say is competitive as you stated but i dont think and this my opinion that vayne is why solely why tanks are having "issues".

And master yi: When you look at these champions what do you see between them, the common solo Q carries which if they get fed theyre monstrous. Which in masters+ yi drops to a 44% winrate.

All %s taken from u.gg

"We're talking 40 DPS in melee range, in magic damage. 40 DPS when squishies breach 2k hp is nothing." You're not getting what im saying. Im not saying its out of this world the next meta thing. Im saying its not something you can ignore because it does wittle you down slowly. And that can make the difference between your AD and the enemy ad dying. 1 auto attack. Which changes the entire couse of a teamfight. And this is dmg coming from items not the champion's abilities. Lets say maokai puts out 1k dmg with all 4 abilities. Thats 1.4k dmg in 3 seconds from a tank. A squishy has very little hp and was cc'd during this entire time. I dont know how you cant see the tanks strongest asset is their cc and their still putting out 1-2 auto attacks worth of dmg of a carry.

The thigh guy4 votes

An addition to your second point. They are already terribly gold efficientcy wise. You also have to take into account that armor is going to be nuked by 49% in just about every game and mr by 40% in every game.

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