You've buffed swain to the point where anyone can use him now at no risk besides throwing

RainbowIcee·Mar 17, 2018·35 votes·8,360 views

Srly, he doesn't even need to scale he can just build w/e and out trade. Let's not even mention he's strong vs ganks considering how his ult works.

71 Comments

EedatMar 17, 201826 votes

His base damages are so insane that he can build tank lol

item 3110 item 3001 item 3003 core

Hemulen MagiMar 17, 201821 votes

Working as intended. He was always a tanky battle mage. He pays for his strengths by being less bursty and less reliable at long range than a lot of mages. His strengths are spread out, something like: 7/10 tank/sustain 6/10 damage 5/10 reliability/range 5/10 utility/CC 2/10 mobility/invulnerability

Other mages, like let's say Syndra or Anivia , would usually be more like: 3/10 tank/sustain 7/10 damage 7/10 reliability/range 6/10 utility/CC 2/10 mobility/invulnerability

Both come out to 25 points in this arbitrary distribution. In reality, Swain might be slightly overpowered, with like an extra 0.5 points spent somewhere in his power budget. Riot will probably nerf him if he gets about 3% play rate in any one lane with his current win rate. Still, it isn't a problem that he's tankier than other mages because it's good to have unique power distributions as long as their total power budget still balances out.

RainbowIceeMar 18, 20182 votes

I agree that seems to be swains role but he just does too much damage now before even scaling, so his raw damage needs to be toned down a bit or at least the CD needs to be slightly higher and thank goodness riot is doing that.

T4underboltMar 18, 20181 votes

None champion should be able to build tanky and still deal a lot of DMG and scale to late at. he same time. This is just bad design enforced by riot to lean towards noobs and casuals to give them everything for free elo.

TeralisanMar 18, 20181 votes

You ever see a Tryndamere?

AszathothMar 18, 20181 votes

Don't forget Garen. One Black Cleaver and he does assassn like damage while still being tanky af because of passive and W. And from there you build pure tank and he's unstoppable without 3 people.

CaptatrixMar 18, 20181 votes

If you don't mind, as I main him, I'd like to correct some of your ratings:

-5 tank/sustain, scales up to mid game and then falls off hard: Swain can be bursted, executes shit on him hard, his sustain is relatively reliable but not passive - he can't fight to low HP and then stay in lane solo to heal up +7/10 his damage can be a bit unreliable and can be built against but he does a lot of damage. +6/10 his reliability is underestimated though he'll never ever catch a good Zed during an all-in. +7/10 his utility is higher than Jhin's. Amazing synergy with team, safe too. It is debatable whether he can be a full-fledged support but he sure as hell can go as one without trolling. 2/10 mobility/avoidance - yup. Besides baiting people in with ult he has no real options of escape, even CC has a ton of counterplay.

At the same time, I'd argue that a well played Syndra has reliability rating borderline 9/10, better range, same waveclear, siege range aoe fast stun with melee usability. So yeah, it probably evens out.

PS since this talks about upcoming nerfs I'll give my own 2c: his trades against squishies should probably be nerfed but here's the thing: he actually really freaking loves Abyssal and it's about to be nerfed heavily. He used to love GLP but now it's meh on him (no HP). So that will nerf him a lot heavier that something like Q CD revert, which is honestly almost unnoticeable either way

Z3SleeperMar 17, 20184 votes

Eh try it out yourself. Most likely the ADC will just lifesteal past your damage.

He does need AP to really do anything.

Whenever I build tanky I feel far less impactful and still seem to die in the same-ish amount of time. Only difference is I don't accomplish anything before death. With a more AP oriented build I'm actually a threat to the backline.

If you even just look at the base numbers they aren't that impressive:

Passive: 105 Q max dmg: 348 W: 300 E: 250 R1 (3 targets): 195/s R2: 375

Max damage in one combo: 1378 + 195/s

1378 damage isn't gonna do anything to anyone. Maybe you can survive to get an extra 2 Q's off but that's only 698 extra damage.

Now look at it with 400 AP:

Passive: 225 Q max dmg: 732 W: 580 E: 450 R1 (3 targets): ~365/s R2: 915

Max damage in one combo: 2902 + 365/s

This however will potentially oneshot an ADC, and if it doesn't then the following Q's will still be dealing 732 damage each as opposed to a non-AP pathetic 348.

Altogether that's a 1524 + 170/s damage increase for his burst combo.

Not to mention the heal is pretty lackluster without AP:

Base: 50/s 400 AP: 114/s

Toss in more factors like Void Staff and Morello and AP is doing a hell of a lot more damage.

I mean, just look at probuilds. NOONE is building tank items on him for a reason (other than Abyssal which will receive a nerf soon).

http://www.probuilds.net/champions/details/Swain

The tankiest items they build are Rod of Ages, Liandry, Rylais and Morello (once again other than Abyssal).

OnotoriMar 17, 201818 votes

Swain was never weak in the first place. But morons whined, and Riot has to pander to them.

F3EDfromDesIr3Mar 17, 201810 votes

Funny how Riot always listens to people who whine about a new/reworked Champion being Bad and overbuff them pretty much after one patch. Riot should give People more time to find out what build would be the most efficient and learn all their new combos before looking to Buff those Champs

SpaghettiVaseMar 18, 20188 votes

Riot should give People more time to find out what build would be the most efficient and learn all their new combos before looking to Buff those Champs

but if that was the case no one would have bought dragon master swain!

XonraMar 18, 20184 votes

Apparently pro players are whiny morons, since they were the ones Riot was asking a lot, not rando people on the boards. Just about every mid laner was saying he was not worth picking, and most top laners didn't want to bother until he was buffed.

So Riot buffed him and pros instantly played him.

Not rocket science. Just because you did okay with him in solo queue doesn't mean he was ACTUALLY good. I used to win on old pre-rework Yorick, but he wasn't good objectively.

SpaghettiVaseMar 18, 20185 votes

I saw imaqtpie feed with him the first time playing and blaming the champion, also saw him say about another swain"wow he's doing no damage" when all he had was mpen boots and item 1057

Maybe pros shouldn't be a standard for balancing champions. Maybe every champion shouldn't be played at a pro level. Maybe pros, being humans to, need to learn champs before riot changes them to make them stronger.

JiaozyMar 18, 20181 votes

Luckily QT isn't a pro and Riot doesn't listen to washed up ex-pro for balancing!

His kit was pretty bad with all the restrictions it had, they only gave him QoL buffs basically (E hitbox being correct, W radius, R going trough champs) and the only thing they overdid was the insane cooldown reduction on Q that makes his trading in early levels so obnoxious.

OnotoriMar 18, 20182 votes

Yeah actually they can be. They also need time to learn how to play / play against a champ too. And they're not infallible either.

WubbaLubbaDubDabMar 18, 20183 votes

he was kinda weak in the beginning but he didnt need these buffs he only needed demonflare to go through ppl maybe the w size buff was needed too

FCJAAAAGOOOOMar 18, 20181 votes

This tbh. Overbuffing completely removes champion skill expression.

JiaozyMar 18, 20181 votes

The kit was fine, but the numbers were straight up bad.

The tiny radius + insane delay on W made the spell impossible to hit on anyone that uses a mouse to play the game.

E was bugged and often did damage when returning without the snare.

You could bodyblock his ult so the AoE damage wasn't exactly AoE but just a nova like Vlad's.

The only real buff that was uncalled for was the 25% cooldown cut off from Q.

RiotRiot MapleNectarMar 18, 201815 votes

We've been testing some nerfs for 8.7, for now it's just reverting the Q buff from 8.5, so increasing the cd by two seconds scaling to the same point at rank 5. Might need to do more yet but that's where we're starting

RainbowIceeMar 18, 20181 votes

that sounds perfect <3 those 2 seconds should give enough opening to hit and run or at least have the swain be worried enough to hold the Q instead of being really aggressive with it.

5050BSMar 18, 20182 votes

The issue is that without Q Swain has nothing once you do a rotation. W is on a LONG as CD, E is also long. That leaves Q and auto attacks and we all know how Immobile mage auto attacks are.

I still wish you guys did something with his Spells that dealt with his Soul stacks.

Like each stack gives his +5% damage and Healing

So you want to fight him with no stacks and you want to avoid him with full stacks.

You lower his damage to Q and E some to compensate for the bonus damage.

Rewards good play (gaining stacks) and makes you think "should I ult now?" because you lose stacks.

Yordle XayahMar 18, 20181 votes

I couldn't help but notice you did with Swain the exact same thing you did with Ornn. About over-buffing under the hood. Please be careful about this worrying trend in the future.

cocacolalipsMar 18, 20181 votes

Swain's E is really obnoxious and really strong, Morgana Q is (was) already the best snare in the game, and you give Swain the same spell and make it AOE, what? it also travels faster and is much harder to see and thus avoid than Morgana Q. and then he also uses his passive to displace you; that sequence of spells makes his E incredibly overloaded for a single spell, and if you want it to be fair, you need to visually communicate what's happening better and add more counterplay so people have a better chance avoiding it or not get punished so harshly when they get hit.

Old Swain also had an AOE snare but it had a very distinct and telegraphed visual and it didn't double as a displacement, it was fair, this current iteration really isn't.

BloodbornSMar 18, 20186 votes

His E is still really telegraphed and much harder to hit then Morgs Q. Morgana can just Q infront of herself and snare someone for 100%, while Swain has to throw the E out and only the comeback does snare, its incredible easy to doge if you have any mobility

Liquid DarioMar 18, 20181 votes

[{quoted}](name=Maple Nectar,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=kbpz1uwG,comment-id=000a,timestamp=2018-03-18T00:46:39.968+0000)

We've been testing some nerfs for 8.7, for now it's just reverting the Q buff from 8.5, so increasing the cd by two seconds scaling to the same point at rank 5. Might need to do more yet but that's where we're starting

My question for you is why did you guys purposely over buff him in the first place ? you guys have been balancing this game for HOW many years now ? how is it you guys cannot understand what would make a champion too overpowered still ?

Like any normal person could have read those changes and knew it was going to make swain op. How is it you guys still fail to recognize how powerful you make some of these champions ? AKA Volibear being a good example recently .. Do you guys even TEST these changes before implementing them ? 2 challenger players could play 2 games and understand if the champ was op or not. Why do you guys consistently fail to recognize these things ?

redniwediSMar 17, 201810 votes

That's not entirely true. If Swain doesn't build early damage literally any Juggernaut can rush a Specter's Cowl into damage and beat the crap out of him. If he does build early damage your point holds though.

nm1010Mar 17, 20181 votes

Swain's best win rate is mid and he can get away with the same abyssal mask build with tear that many battle mages do.

redniwediSMar 17, 20186 votes

Fair, as a top lane main I completely forgot people play him mid. I've only seen him played top so far.

HibekiMar 17, 20189 votes

I still have a hard time believing swain is good. I think W isnt entirely useless now and its easy to land E from the increased hitbox, but the only matchups ive personally see him win are specific advantageous ones.

For instance, I got my ass kicked as TF against swain, but my low range and trade power gives him a huge advantage, and were ignoring the fact i had a teemo jungle.

BisaknospMar 17, 20185 votes

i think they overbuffed his w radius should be 300 not 325

SEKAIMar 18, 20185 votes

Because too many people QQ'ed about him upon re-release claiming that the champ is bad even though it's mostly just them, and Riot just buffed him without thinking which leads to overbuffing. What possibly awaits is a gut.

This is called the Ivern Effect.

ChaddyFantomeMar 18, 20181 votes

{quoted}

Because too many people QQ'ed about him upon re-release claiming that the champ is bad even though it's mostly just them, and Riot just buffed him without thinking which leads to overbuffing. What possibly awaits is a gut.

This is called the Ivern Effect.

Actually, its the Taliyah effect!

SSmotzerMar 17, 20184 votes

So you mean like pre rework Swain?

RainbowIceeMar 17, 201815 votes

pre rework swain was heavy mana gated and his raw dmg wasn't as high neither did have have a spamable Q.

Z3SleeperMar 17, 20185 votes

Decrepify CD: 8 seconds 40% CDR: 4.8 seconds Duration: 4 seconds

...eh?

MorganFreemanBotMar 18, 20181 votes

{quoted}

pre rework swain was heavy mana gated and his raw dmg wasn't as high neither did have have a spamable Q.

He was also immovable in lane and utterly immune to poke, as well as having easier access to harder CC and far less counterable damage (point and click DoT which increased damage taken).

MadVikingMar 18, 20184 votes

His base damages are so high he wins trades, so I see good players actually building CDR armor items on him now. They are making the same mistake with Swain as they did with Ornn. Buffing them like 6 patches straight until they are the best top laner in the game for months again, until they finally decide it needs a nerf again.

Wild GeeseMar 18, 20184 votes

The buffs on his E and W size were needed, they are pretty damn telegraphed and people are already getting better at dodging them. He's just smoother to play because of them and I'd consider them QOL as much as they were buffs. Q on the other hand... Probably needs some adjustments.

LordGeovanniMar 17, 20183 votes

So like Veigar Cassiopea Annie etc

WizzleboomMar 18, 20182 votes

Give him some actual AP scaling so you can build AP and not do crap damage. He's a ranged AP tank with his current base damage and weak scaling :/

ZaneShadowMar 18, 20181 votes

Id really like to see his W base damage lowered a little bit, but then have higher scaling. Like losing 10-20 damage but then having 10% more scaling. He’s kind of a mid-late game champ anyways so I feel like it could work.

LordGeovanniMar 18, 20181 votes

If he is getting a whole 10% more scaling 50 damage lower would be good 10-20 is only good for 2-5% scaling

ZaneShadowMar 18, 20181 votes

{quoted}

If he is getting a whole 10% more scaling 50 damage lower would be good 10-20 is only good for 2-5% scaling

True, but don’t forget that’s 10-20 Damage PER BOLT. so At shotgun range it is about a 50+ damage drop off

Supreme Senpai69Mar 18, 20182 votes

That's his Q. His W is the eye thing

Romans VI XXIIIMar 18, 20182 votes

And that's 10% per bolt. So 50% at shot gun range.

JiaozyMar 18, 20182 votes

Then you might be thinking about his Q because his W is Vision of Empire, the long range vision spell.

Supreme Senpai69Mar 18, 20181 votes

I ban Swain every game. The sheer tankiness and healing is outrageous considering his damage is also insane. The fact he has reliable and quick CC on his E now is just icing on the ban cake.

RevaliMar 18, 20183 votes

Reliable isn't exactly what i'd call his E

JiaozyMar 18, 20181 votes

You didn't play vs a single old Swain, right? When he could just Q slow you into E-W AoE root you from 800 range? THAT was reliable, not his current E that can be blocked by minions, summoned units and jungle monsters.

Supreme Senpai69Mar 18, 20181 votes

I played him a lot as a support. His zoning was super strong and fun. However, his snare was difficult to land because of how easy it was to land. They had to be standing on it for awhile, or you had to time it perfectly, taking their movements and speed into account. It was basically Soraka's E.

His new E, if you use it at max range, is a guaranteed stun. The missile speed is pretty quick too.

It might just be one of those things though I guess. Like, I can aim Veigar's cage to stun anyone reliably and not just trap them. But I can't land Kayn's W for the life of me. I might just be randomly good at landing Swain's E. But I'm honestly not that good at the game so I refuse to believe that