Q Cooldown Nerf Hurts Mid Taliyah more than Jungle Taliyah

Ifneth · 2018-07-02T22:37:33.577Z

The PBE just updated with a nerf of Taliyah’s Q, Threaded Volley, increasing its early cooldown from 9/7.5 to 11/9.5. This change will nerf midlane Taliyah, who barely sees play anywhere, more than they will the overpowered Jungle Taliyah. Jungle Taliyah relies on her strong scuttle control through single-target Q, early tempo through passive movement speed, and strong level advantage exploitation because of her high base damage. She also synergizes very well with an Rylai’s Crystal Scepter, which fits the jungle’s lower economy and enables reliable ganking. Her cooldowns are certainly part of her power budget, but they aren’t its main feature. Midlane Taliyah has long cooldowns during lane. Threaded Volley was her only sub-ten second cooldown for lane. Since waves come every thirty seconds, the PBE change from 9 to 11 seconds at rank 1 is the difference between 3 Q’s per wave and 2 Q’s per wave. It’s a 1/3 decrease of her potential to harass her opponent before Level 4—more if she ever uses Q on the wave. The difference between the roles is important. Midlane Taliyah disappeared because Jungle Taliyah was so good that high-elo players switched her roles, even though she was still viable midlane. Junglers and even non-junglers started playing Taliyah jungle for freelo. Were Jungle Taliyah nerfed into line with other junglers through changes targeted at the power budget I mentioned above, midlane Taliyah would re-appear. Therefore, Riot, please target needs to her jungle performance, rather than her midlane. She doesn’t deserve to be Nidalee’d into the jungle. Everyone else, show your support for targeting Taliyah nerfs to her jungle performance here!

D357R0Y3RJul 3, 20182 votes

even if she was released as a midlaner, things evolve and people realised that jungle taliyah is a better version of mid taliyah

it's like playing toplane morde instead of botlane

IfnethJul 3, 20183 votes

That’s not what happened. She got mini-reworked in a patch, and the changes coupled with a hotfix buff to her damage made her ridiculous in the jungle. There’s nothing wrong with discovering flex pics, but they shouldn’t come at the expense of original roles that were not inherently unhealthy, especially if the flex is too strong.

Without nerfs, Taliyah Jungle is less like Mordekaiser Top than like Lulu Mid. It’s just way too strong and in ways that are almost impossible to counter. Her tempo (the ability to exploit advantages in levels and position) from her passive and base damages is just crazy.

Taliyah’s mini-rework brought her mid to a strong but healthy place. That shouldn’t have to go away just because people discovered a way to abuse her kit changes in the jungle. She can instead receive jungle-oriented nerfs I outlined in my original post to balance her performance there without hurting her laning too much.

D357R0Y3RJul 3, 20181 votes

she got a mini rework that ended up making her better in the jungle and people like pants and dragon explained why, the bonus ms in the jungle is insane the clear speed is actually ok and her kiting power against melees makes her fine if she encounters an enemy jungler

so in the end she becomes better in the jungle and nothing is wrong with that, as i said things evolve and people find way to abuse changes

IP MasquerenaJul 3, 20182 votes

Vi was a top laner at release, Nidalee and Morgana were midlaners, Graves was an adc, Zyra a midlaner and we see them where now?

Vi - jungler Nidalee - jungler Morgana - support Graves - jungle. Zyra - support

All 5 of those are now played on a role they weren't designed for, yet they are now balanced for that role.

I'm sorry, what was your point with "not a designed role"?

I played her both when she was a midlaner and now when she's a jungler, and the jungle fits her way better than midlaner. Just because she wasn't designed for it doesn't mean she can't become one, as we already have quite a few examples of champs being played in other roles than where they were inteded to at release

IfnethJul 3, 20182 votes

I don’t know why those champions changed roles, but Taliyah did after a specific patch changed her kit to solve her problems midlane. She wasn’t designed for the jungle originally, and she wasn’t played there until then. Now, she’s played there all the time.

Changes meant to balance a champion in a role shouldn’t make them so strong in another one that the new role must be nerfed, whatever the consequences to the original. That’s not balancing a champion for a role but removing them from it.

Such a change should be made explicitly and deliberately—and for good reason. Taliyah jungle is not a healthy evolution of the champion. She’s pick or ban in competitive and terrorizing soloqueue. Are you saying that her midlane should be nerfed just to get what amounts to an abuse case under control?

Because there are, as I outlined in my original post, plenty of other options for nerfs to Jungliayh without hurting Midliyah. Her early passive movement speed, for example, could be reduced to 20% rather than 25% at Level 1 to reduce her tempo. We can have both roles be healthy.

D357R0Y3RJul 3, 20182 votes

graves had changes that intended to solve problems bot lane people abused the changes to make him a jungler and there is nothing you can do against that

because as i said, people abuse changes and force riot to balance the game around how people play the game

IP MasquerenaJul 3, 20181 votes

Vi was ment as a toplaner, players saw that her kit is way too good in the jungle, so everyone stopped playing her top and took her in the jungle, Riot then kept balancing her as a jungler.

Nidalee was a laner, and because she had many match-ups that were bad for her, Riot added a bonus damage to monsters in her kit, players saw that and she was the most OP jungler. Riot nerfed her in such a way that her laning was gutted and ever since she is only actually viable as a jungler.

Graves - read above, kind of a similar case, just different specifics

Zyra and Morgana were designed for mid laner, players saw how good their kits were even on low gold, so they placed them on support, where they have been balanced ever since.

Taliyah now has the same situation as Nidalee, so if Riot did it once, gutted a champ that was initially a laner and kept it's only viability as a jungler, I don't see what will stop them from doing so again.

Also, I didn't say that Mid Taliyah should be gutted, I said that in her curent form, jungle fits her better. Do I want her to be viable in more than 1 role? Yes. If she can only be viable in 1 role tho, I want it to be as a jungler, because it's the only role that can make good use of her curent skill set. After the removal of the Q AoE, her mid OP laner days got numbered. She's a good midlaner now, but there is a precedent, hence the way I made my previous comment.

I do agree that her curent jungle is strong, and in that aspect, she suffers from the "Azir syndrome" (sounds more cool than Ryze/Kalista syndrome), she is good, and if her team can abuse her power, there's nothing the enemy can do, but on the other hand, she isn't the best 1v1 person, so if the team won't help her when needed, there's nothing she can do, that's all assuming equal skill between all players.

So don't worry, she'll get the same medicine as Azir sooner or later, afterall, that's the fate or Shurima's mages.

IfnethJul 3, 20182 votes

Thanks for the history lesson! :)

Yeah, that’s exactly what I’m afraid of. What if Riot sees her kit does well Jungle now and just rolls with it, leaving Taliyah Mid like Morgana Mid? Even their promise to keep her Midlane identity alive is worrisome.

"Spoke to Buike, who is in charge of this balance changelist, and he's very happy to see her in mid/jg/supp. Obviously we don't wanna end up in a place where picking her midlane is straight trolling, bbut for now we're happy to let this sit and observe where all of you are taking it." -DanielZKlein

There is hope, however. Each of the champions you mentioned was distinctly different from the Stoneweaver. Vi’s kit is just inherently good in the jungle. Nidalee and Graves needed a place to be viable. Zyra and Morgana Mid cannot be balanced against their Support roles, where they are more fun anyway.

Taliyah’s jungling is just overtuned rather than inherently overbearing. The flat base MS buff, the Level 1 passive buff, the rock surfing cooldown buff, and the massive and uncapped monster damage of her recent changes made her a tempo jungler who’s ferocious when ahead, useful when even or behind, and scales into a late-game threat. She needs to be weak somewhere in the jungle, and tweaking those changes could address that.

And yes, I’m aware of the history of Shurima’s mages in higher elo. Azir oppressed Midlane until he was overthrown. Xerath threatened the Rift until he was driven back. Cassiopeia bullied and maneuvered until she was expunged. Now, Taliyah has come along, and she too may become another exile.

I hope Riot understands this and remembers that her jungling is just so strong, relative to her midlane and relative to other junglers, that she’s being picked Jungle just for freelo accidentally created by their changes.

IP MasquerenaJul 3, 20181 votes

Well, Nidalee and Graves ended up in the jungle just like Taliyah did. A minirework to something in their kit just made them the best junglers of their time.

Anyway, for now, we need to observe how Taliyah will perform after the following nerfs, as that nerf may sound insignifiant, but it's actually big, compared to reducing damage, which would hurt all 3 (4 if you count the koreans playing her top lane) more than the cdr.

Nerfing her cooldown would reduce her clear by around 8 seconds, which may not sounds like much, but it's alot, as it makes her early clears less healthy, thus allowing others to invade her more easily, her early trades against the enemy jungler are slower, her ganks will be later, giving enemies time to counter gank or make plays on other parts of the map.

Yes, mid Taliyah would be hurt a bit as well, but jungle Taliyah would be hurt more than mid.

It still keeps her identity of a good roamer and ganker, while taking away from what makes her the strong girl she is. It may be too little atm, or it may be too much. Irelia's nerfs didn't sound too big either when it came to the boards, especially since she got compensation buffs in some other aspects, but she went from an S tier top laner to garbage, so don't understimate small numbers, as even if they have little impact inside a kit, it can have a devastating change for macro.

IfnethJul 3, 20182 votes

But Graves and Nidalee weren’t viable in their original roles and arguably are better off as junglers anyway. Mid Taliyah’s lane priority was causing problems in highly skilled and competitive play, she received a mini-rework to solve those problems, and now her tempo is causing problems in the jungle.

I’m worried that Riot will not take the care needed to tune her jungle performance without affecting her other roles too much. Balancing for multiple positions has always been difficult and often evidence of a champion just being too strong.

The Q cooldown nerf hurts her jungling each time she needs to use more than one Q on a camp after her leash. Just to be clear: does she do that 4 times on her first clear?

But like I said, it also hurts her midlane. I’ve played 11 second rank 1 Q Taliyah. It felt clunky and almost punished you for using it, especially to poke or trade, since you could use it only twice each wave until level 4. Having an extra early Q feels much better and makes a big difference. Plus, since her other two abilities are not for poking, you end up sitting around waiting for Q most of lane. It’s not fun.

IP MasquerenaJul 4, 20181 votes

Depending on the type of leash you get, you do use 3-4 Q's on Blue and Gromp, so it's a lot, that's not counting Wolves, where you use one or two more, again, depending on what leash you got a Blue, and there's the Scuttler, where using 2 Q's is the go to to conserve Smite unless it's contested.

Asuming a bad leash, say your top doesn't want to tank it, even if it's a Maokai, you use 4 Q's for Blue and Gromp, 2 on Scuttler and 2 more on Wolves, to save as much hp as possible, that's 8 Q's, for a total of 16 seconds more time to clear.

So her jungle in that situation is heavily affected, as you have a lot less health than previous, you can't gank as fast, and that also means you can get invaded easier, and you also can't duel as effective.

Yes, it hurts Mid lane well, but the way it hurts her in the jungle is much worse than Mid.

Buffs and nerfs aren't only "how does it afect the kit", but how does it afect the rest of the gameplay. The 2 seconds aren't breaking her kit, but it hurts her jungle abilities.

Again, asuming an uncontested jungle with a weak/med leash, you get the 16 seconds from before, and add another 8 for Raptors and Red, that's 24 seconds longer clear.

Again, that's assuming the bad scenario. But even with a good leash, her being delayed by around 18-20 seconds is a lot, as she still takes more damage from the camps, and all the negatives that come with that.

Even her ganking potential is hit, as she has lower health from the clear, her ganks won't be as good, as she can be focused, or in a countergank, she's kinda screwed if the enemy has more health than her.

As always, the devil is in the details. Getting used to 2 extra sec in lane is not as bad as the way it affects her in the jungle.

The Yetii RiderJul 4, 20181 votes

Absolutely not. Riot shouldn't be releasing champions for specific lanes, they should just release champions as is and let the players decide what to do with her.

IfnethJul 4, 20181 votes

While it’s tempting to let the community decide what to do with a champion, Riot also needs to make sure that each role gets a new one every once in a while. If even just two champions in a row became, say, junglers soon after release, then jungle players would have gotten two new champions while everyone else got none.

The Yetii RiderJul 4, 20181 votes

It is the players' choice to specialize in a specific role rather than say, specific champions or a specific class. There is nothing stopping players from choosing to main tanks and going top/support/jungle evenly, or mages and going top/mid/bot. There is also nothing stopping players from playing only Ezreal and going mid/jungle/bot or only Lulu and going top/mid/support.

IfnethJul 4, 20181 votes

There’s plenty stopping them. It’s inconvenient and difficult to follow your champion to another lane, which you might not have wanted to play in the first place. It forces a really difficult choice with no good outcome on players who, unless the original lane was inherently worse or unhealthy, just got unlucky.

Indeed, it wasn’t Riot’s decision that Taliyah mid was problematic and needed to be nerfed, or that she was inherently better elsewhere. They nerfed her lane priority in one patch, but the compensation and hotfix buffs she received in exchange made her OP jungle. There’s no reason to say, “Oh, well, guess she’s a jungler now” and just forget the whole purpose of the changes in the first place, not to mention the Taliyah mid community.

The Yetii RiderJul 5, 20181 votes

You act as if mid Taliyah doesn't benefit from 340 MS as well, though.

ShonjlJul 4, 20181 votes

{quoted}

Because she was originally released as a midlaner. A small but dedicated community of players arose surrounding her, like the tribe of her lore, to play Taliyah midlane.

But then the hotfix buffs in response to her mini-rework made her overpowered when played in the jungle, so even these players started playing her there for freelo.

Jungle Taliyah was never Riot’s goal, and while it should a legitimate a flex pick, Midlane Taliyah should take precedence. She should not be subjected to such a harsh, crude nerf as this one because her jungle counterpart is too strong.

Champs change. Maybe she is meant to be a jungler now? Blitz was meant to be a top laner. Morde was meant to fit anywhere. Just because Riot thought of them going somewhere doesn't mean anything. Annie was meant to be a mid laner but for the longest time she was a support. Malz is meant to be a mid laner but he was made a support then no role. Lux sees more play support than mid, her main role.

She lost being a mid laner when she lost her q waveclear. She is a jungle now.

IfnethJul 4, 20181 votes

The point of the changes weren’t to move her into whatever other role—just to fix her midlane. Riot doesn’t want to remove a champion from the midlane roster or force its mains to learn a new role or give it up without good reason.

Q Cooldown Nerf Hurts Mid Taliyah more than Jungle Taliyah

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