Boards›Gameplay

Increase Irelia’s Mana Consumption to Decrease Her Safety in Midlane

Ifneth··38 votes·13,691 views

Mana-gated laners who have lost lane control must choose to either tank the wave and lose health, clear the wave and lose mana, or last-hit the wave and lose turret health. Winning matchups, whether due to a counterpick or earlier lead, can wear their opponents down by forcing them to repeatedly make this choice.

However, Irelia does not spend enough mana clearing the wave for this choice to matter. Bladesurge and her other skills do not cost enough mana. Therefore, even when she loses wave control, Irelia can choose to clear the wave without being worn down.

Changes -Bladesurge: Cost increased to 20/25/30/35/40 Mana. -Flawless Duet: Cost increased to 80 Mana at all ranks.

Increasing the cost of Bladesurge with its rank would require Irelia to spend mana to use it for waveclear, forcing her to make the choice other mana-champions must make, while also punishing her more for using it without a mark or unit-kill, and require her also to have mana for an all-in. Increasing the cost of Flawless Duet would further increase that cost, as well as the cost of fishing for an all-in.

Overall, increasing her mana consumption, especially early, would endanger her to being pushed in and then bullied by midlane mages if she does not retain control. Since she skirmishes and scales well, and has good all-ins throughout the game, she would still have many paths to victory. Indeed, nerfing her midlane performance would permit buffing her toplane, where she began.

27 Comments

Verxint22 votes

I'm pretty sure she lost all mana refund mechanics in her rework. It just hardly costs any mana now.

Ifneth1 votes

Edited accordingly.

WeaselRune8 votes

I think they real solution to this would be a slightly lower mana regen.

Iv not played reworked Ira, but I know increased cost on abilities has a harder impact than a lot of people give credit for. Adds up faster than they think.

Just lowering her initial mana regen from 8 to 5 while leaving the max scale the same (21.6) would have a small impact on her ability to spam Qs as much. A lower mana regen would do what youre trying to achieve with the laning phase, but not impact her mid/late game in the same way. Some sort of minor buff (HP regen?) could be compensated here.

Were I more familiar with her rework, I could say more. Just looking at those mana cost suggestions tell me she would be hit harder than you may have meant for her to be. The mana regen thing would affect her in the same way, and earlier, just not to the same magnitude.

Modl Ryden l6 votes

I would say nerf her W mana cost to 100 at rank 5 instead since that's usually what kills you if Q is on CD OR if she needs to 'just soak damage' because Q is on CD. Then maybe increase E mana cost to like 60 I guess.

Because the way she plays is mostly all of her Q so any increase in it's mana cost would be considerably exponential because of how frequently it's casted.

If you wanna nerf something you can't just gut it for the sake of making it easier for every other champ to deal with her but rather make the champion struggle a little more in certain conditions.

Because what you're asking for at rank 5 Q, you want her to spend 20 * 6 = 120 more mana to Q up a wave (no cannon). That itself is almost the cost of an ultimate for a lot of champions, including Irelia.

Unless a champion effectively builds mana from items, basic abilities should not have to cost upwards of 100 mana for being something that is considered a champions 'bread and butter.'

Ifneth3 votes

Irelia has become a prominent midlane pick partly because of her ability to safely, cheaply, and quickly clear an incoming wave by using Bladesurge on every minion. Increasing its cost would cause that tactic to gradually consume her mana, just like any other mana champion’s all-inning the wave would.

Bringing her resource consumption into line with her competition would expose her vulnerabilities to them. She would be easier to balance midlane and, possibly, be allowed to have the stats needed to contest toplane. Reducing this power disparity could grant us a true solo-lane flex pick.

Taliyahc4 votes

for real playing mid lane is so annoying against Irelia.

The trade off for playing melee mid laners like Talon or Fizz is you get punished pre-6 and have to constantly play safe and try your best to cs. Just played a game as Lux and jesus christ you can't even touch the Irelia as she just dashes around like a Yasuo with 0 mana consumption.

This whole joke that the -5 ms was actually going to balance her is ridiculous it's stuff that they've let fester like this version of Irelia that is really turning me off from playing the game...

Mordepool3 votes

She has mana costs huh didnt notice

Ivern and Irelia2 votes

[deleted]

WeaselRune1 votes

I know theyve reverted a few champs recently, but I dont think theyve done this for VGU champs. Their graphical changes dont have the old animations in them anymore. Maybe they can, IDK, just throwing that out there.

SociopathFriend1 votes

For one thing they've only ever been partial reverts- not the full thing. They're more likely to try and make the new kit like the old one than to straight-up go back to it.

Probably because, "Go back to the way it was" doesn't work if the way it was doesn't work better. If it was bad enough for them to change, it's not worth going back for after changing it.

Spicy Rice1 votes

Not necessarily. You could increase her q mana costs, while increasing her base stats. It would lower her ability to wave clear, but give her more dueling power.

As top lane is more focused on wave control, rather than pushing, it would make her more viable top, while nerfing her ability to snowball mid, where being able to waveclear is one of the most important factors

Ifneth1 votes

It’s not just the snowball. Early in almost any other ranged versus melee matchup, the ranged champion controls the wave while punishing the melee champion for last-hitting, establishing a health difference that prevents a later all-in. The base stat differences and kit designs of these two champion categories are balanced around this play pattern.

If the melee champion can last-hit quickly, cheaply, and safely even when under turret, then the ranged champion cannot crash waves into their turret to damage it, deny them last hits, or even roam. Such waveclear shuts down the ranged champion’s only way to contest the lane. Since Irelia also has mobility, engage, and a strong all-in, she also kit-counters squishy and immobile champions. Against her in midlane, mages must contest a lane they cannot win but can easily lose.

And she would be just another LeBlanc if that were all. She scales into a teamfighter just like the mage does, with the same AOE hard and soft crowd control and team-wipe potential. The mage must fight her but just can’t be expected to. Hence her high prevalence in professional play: she can beat almost any control mage and may of the others too. In solo-queue, her ability to spam dashes can cause chaos just like Master Yi, Katarina, or Yasuo do.

Making her a riskier pick by forcing her to burn mana to waveclear would give mages a way to beat her.

Elisza Kitsune2 votes

A suggestion would be to do something similar to Kalista's kit where the mana is only semi-refunded in the first 1-3 upgrades until you upgrade it the 4th time which will make it reset entirely

Ifneth2 votes

Corrected. She does not refund the mana. The cost should just scale.

macspam1 votes

[{quoted}](name=O1S KITSUNE,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ZQmjpuHe,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2018-11-13T04:39:37.927+0000)

A suggestion would be to do something similar to Kalista's kit where the mana is only semi-refunded in the first 1-3 upgrades until you upgrade it the 4th time which will make it reset entirely

lol it's a tangent but as kalista i just concede that im going OOM before first back within a few minutes, rend just makes farming so easy XD

Elisza Kitsune1 votes

I know right? Like I'm always fat fingering that E ready to kill one smol minion

saltran1 votes

Yup

ankoanko191 votes

Why nerf her when her toplane is medicore at best? Why not just shift her playstyle. She relies on her Q to have passive stacks up, nerfing it is just nerfing toplane more than midlane. They need to rework her ult or W and give her better base stats inorder for her to not be trash toplane.

Ifneth1 votes

Because, as I said at the bottom, nerfing her waveclear will reduce her performance Midlane much more than Top, for which she could then receive buffs to become a flex pick.

ankoanko191 votes

{quoted}

Because, as I said at the bottom, nerfing her waveclear will reduce her performance Midlane much more than Top, for which she could then receive buffs to become a flex pick.

Every compensation buff will just make her a better midlaner. I think ICU put it out right ''If Irelia is good top, its most likely damn broken in midlane and if Irelia is good in midlane she most likely sucks in toplane''.

Ifneth1 votes

But were her waveclear to cost mana, especially early, other midlane champions could push her under turret, where the compensation she would need for top lane would be less useful. Therefore, she could be a decent top laner with adequate stats and a decent mid laner with adequate, but not cheap, waveclear.

ankoanko191 votes

{quoted}

But were her waveclear to cost mana, especially early, other midlane champions could push her under turret, where the compensation she would need for top lane would be less useful. Therefore, she could be a decent top laner with adequate stats and a decent mid laner with adequate, but not cheap, waveclear.

But she loses more trades top so her being pushed in there hurts her just aa much. Also I dont think nerfing her early game will do anything. They gutted her on release and would you look at that, she was more op mid.

Ifneth1 votes

Top laners would have less opportunity to push her in because they generally need to walk up to push the wave, and have smaller and less damaging AOE abilities. Mages can hit the minions from range with large, damaging AOE abilities.

JohnnyNeverSins1 votes

If they do so,pretty sure they are just gonna make her Q refund mana on kill..

Summonah123691 votes

Elise has the opposite problems, only a couple of abilities in early game jungle clears will eat out all your mana.

Rıots Bad Client1 votes

what about

Increase her Armor per level. Decrease her MR per level.

Decrease her mana Regen from

Passiv; Increase stacks from 4%to 5% (from 16% to 20%)

Q: Increase the mana Cost of the Q from 20 to 30. Double the mana cost when she dashes to a Non marked target. Reduce the Scaling of her Q from 60% to something like 30%(But increase the scaling per point in Q). while removing the heal.

W Add heal, that scales the longer she is in the ability. And lets say IF she channels it max, she gets healed for 6% for every target she hits. And doesn't heal if she doesn't hit anything.

Maybe: Increase the Cool down, But have Q reduce the CD for every dash.

E Reduce the time she can place the from 3.5 to 2.5

R Increase the Disarm from 1.5 to 2. Decrease the slow at lower ranks.

Just trying to make it clear to have a weak early game, Strong Mid game, and Okay late game.

I would reduce the MR of her, so it will make it very dangerous to fight in a mid lane match up that is a AP Champion. But trying to increase her Bruiser like appeal. I would say, Removing the Heal on Q Is a real big iffy, but I think adding it to W might make her Less safe in general. As its more clear and more counter to know her only heals is on a channel ability. Also I think it might make for some clutch moments.

Acrilyk31 votes

{quoted}

Mana-gated laners who have lost lane control must choose to either tank the wave and lose health, clear the wave and lose mana, or last-hit the wave and lose turret health. Winning matchups, whether due to a counterpick or earlier lead, can wear their opponents down by forcing them to repeatedly make this choice.

However, Irelia does not spend enough mana clearing the wave for this choice to matter. Bladesurge and her other skills do not cost enough mana. Therefore, even when she loses wave control, Irelia can choose to clear the wave without being worn down.

Changes -Bladesurge: Cost increased to 20/25/30/35/40 Mana. -Flawless Duet: Cost increased to 80 Mana at all ranks.

Increasing the cost of Bladesurge with its rank would require Irelia to spend mana to use it for waveclear, forcing her to make the choice other mana-champions must make, while also punishing her more for using it without a mark or unit-kill, and require her also to have mana for an all-in. Increasing the cost of Flawless Duet would further increase that cost, as well as the cost of fishing for an all-in.

Overall, increasing her mana consumption, especially early, would endanger her to being pushed in and then bullied by midlane mages if she does not retain control. Since she skirmishes and scales well, and has good all-ins throughout the game, she would still have many paths to victory. Indeed, nerfing her midlane performance would permit buffing her toplane, where she began.

This man complaining about Irelia's mana but he don't see Irelia wave clearing pre-sheen and losing 3/4 of her mana. Lol Irelia's safety she legit got a one-way sticking to the enemy and a 0,75s stun which is easier to dodge than 50% of skillshots. You are gonna tell me that she's safe because she has sticking power? Is Jax safe because he can leap to wards?

More from Gameplay

3 Refunds per season, upvote if you want 3 refunds per season.
Gameplay764 comments
7,167
votes
3 Refunds per season, upvote if you want 3 refunds per season.
Gameplay156 comments
3,510
votes
UPVOTE FOR URF
Gameplay606 comments
2,440
votes
Yes plz.
Gameplay456 comments
1,721
votes
3 Refunds per season, up vote if you want 3 refunds per season.
Gameplay114 comments
1,716
votes
When is ANYONE at riot going to address the awful new player experience?
Gameplay634 comments
1,383
votes

More by Ifneth

You Know You Done Goofed When...
Story, Art, & Sound32 comments
71
votes
Why We Need Top and Jungle Tanks
Gameplay93 comments
46
votes
Why Gold is Elo Heaven
Gameplay47 comments
37
votes
Third Choice in Versus: Democracy!
Story, Art, & Sound41 comments
28
votes
Ezreal is a Monster
Story, Art, & Sound69 comments
27
votes
Raptor Knights
Story, Art, & Sound18 comments
21
votes