Why We Need Top and Jungle Tanks

Ifneth·Jan 8, 2019·46 votes·16,019 views

Tanks, like every other class, are part of the balance system. They struggle right now, but this post is about the consequences rather than why.

Champions can be categorized roughly into laning champs like Renekton, Zed, or Jhin and scaling champs like Camille, Orianna, and Jinx. Laning champions want to win lane, snowball their advantage, and end the game before the enemy team groups around its tanks. Their hard crowd control and cheap bulk make leads less relevant, especially against compositions based around melee or burst. A fed team is dead if caught or useless if zoned by a tank.

When tanks are uncommon, teams can draft melee, burst, and laning champions without ‘falling off’ later. They can recover or continue to snowball by finding picks, unobstructed by tanks. Meanwhile, ranged, utility, and scaling champions never ‘outscale,’ since they cannot hide behind their own tanks. The meta will therefore comprise assassins, duelists, divers, and juggernauts, alongside ‘safe’ or ‘bully’ Midlane and Botlane champions like Lissandra or Ezreal. They can survive or win lane by design and peel or escape for themselves later, while also having enough burst threat to ward off their meta opponents.

We need Top and Jungle to have viable tanks to increase the chance that a team will draft one, correcting the meta.

93 Comments

Critmaster GarenJan 8, 201912 votes

the only juggernaut who is currently strong is Aatrox and hes not even building like a juggernaut. he builds flat ad and lethality with items like item 3142 item 3812 to burst out opponents with electrocute.

if anything, juggernauts need defensive buffs to be able to be sustained damage threats instead of being forced to itemize into burst and rely on flash plays on squishies to be relevant, because otherwise they die before theyre able to deal any damage.

or they need a base ad/lvl buff across the board to give them high enough base damage to carry with tankier builds.

have you tried building actually beefy on most juggernauts recently? it doesnt work anymore.

IfnethJan 8, 20196 votes

My bad. I forgot Urgot is technically a specialist. That said, he builds off-tank like any other Jug.

Zero Skill TankJan 8, 20193 votes

The only thing Riot did with juggernauts since s5 was letting them to abuse tanks more and more freely, somehow assuming that it will fix their problems.

It is obvious that they will suffer in current meta - tanks are the easiest targets for them, and they are virtually not played outside of bot.

Critmaster GarenJan 8, 20199 votes

{quoted}

The only thing Riot did with juggernauts since s5 was letting them to abuse tanks more and more freely, somehow assuming that it will fix their problems.

It is obvious that they will suffer in current meta - tanks are the easiest targets for them, and they are virtually not played outside of bot.

its not only that. they just die too fast.

just like tanks they cant keep themselves alive long enough to be able to deal damage when theyre itemizing for beefier builds. if you actually manage what youre supposed to do and get into the middle of the enemy team then Illaoi gets cced and blown up during her ult before her tentacles slam down a second time. Darius dies in the 5 seconds time it takes his q to come off cooldown. its ridiculous.

like try to build item 3071 on garen and watch yourself dealing shit for damage to squishy targets. unless youre far ahead or specifically fight the villain, they just win the damage race in most cases. so your best option is to build ghostblade + triforce and try to burst them out.

we need item 3005 in this game, and we need to make sure that juggernauts benefit the most from this item so more versatile champions like camille and irelia dont just build it. this item would actually allow juggers to build really tanky and still carry with ramping up sustained damage.

revert to base ad increase.
decouple items from base ad
make skirmishers, divers and sion more bonus ad scaling and juggers more total ad scaling
give us jugger items like and make them increase base ad

this is the best way i can think of to make jugger items more effective on juggers than other fighter types.

AlzonJan 8, 20191 votes

I’d love to see a post detailing every single change as part of this systemic overhaul... Maybe I can try my own hand at it, or something similar. I’d like to think I’m relatively unbiased toward any champion or role after all my times going around the block. Objectivity is key for balance.

Critmaster GarenJan 9, 20192 votes

{quoted}

I’d love to see a post detailing every single change as part of this systemic overhaul... Maybe I can try my own hand at it, or something similar. I’d like to think I’m relatively unbiased toward any champion or role after all my times going around the block. Objectivity is key for balance.

one thing to consider. they could introduce a new stat called might or something like that, that is effectively just a base ad increase.

for example 50 might increases your base ad by 50%.

its similar to what they did with turning flat armor pen into lethality. then they could make juggernauts and their items scale with this new stat, and just say sheen damage is calculated before might.

otherwise, here is my suggestion:

STEP 1 (these values arent absolute and only showcase the concept):

changed from 100% base ad to 10% total ad + 5 damage/lvl (60% effective for ranged champions) . changed from 200% base ad to 15% total ad + 10/lvl (60% effective for ranged champions) . changed from 150% base ad to x% armor and magic resist + 5 damage/lvl (60% effective for ranged champions)

think about what sheens scaling currently is. its effectively a level scaling, since there are no base ad increases in the game, other than the ad you gain per level. melee champions base ad are very close to each other, but generally higher than ranged champions base ad.

so it should be possible to just turn sheens scaling straight up into level (+ small total ad) scaling with a penalty for ranged champions.

lets say you get up to 400 total ad. either through bonus ad items, or through base ad increases. this would put triforce procs up with a very high ad value to 240 damage (144 ranged) at lvl 18. similar to top values right now. (darius has 149 base ad at lvl 18).

STEP 2:

every juggernaut ability that currently scales with bonus ad is changed to total ad scalings.

Darius Illaoi are two with bonus ad scalings on top of my head.

darius 5 stacks would grant him base ad for example instead of bonus ad. his r would be changed to total ad scalings (probably remove the base damage entirely and make it scale with total ad).

STEP 3:

juggernaut items are changed to increase base ad instead of bonus ad

is reverted to a base ad increase

grants flat 40 base damage increase

grants 30 base damage increase

grants base damage equal to 0.5% + 0.5%/second of maximum health, 2.5% maximum

THE BENEFIT OF THIS SYSTEM:

juggernaut items would mainly benefit the juggernaut champion class who have the highest base ad values in the game. they would increase their auto attack and ability damage.

skirmishers, assassins, and divers would have mostly bonus ad scalings on their abilities. while they could still buy juggernaut items, they wouldnt feed into their ability damage and only affect their auto attack damage.

this means someone like Jax Riven Fiora could still buy items like item 3053 , but since it wouldnt feed into their ability scalings anymore, it would only be worth to consider one of them as a single defensive item.

on the other hand, this would also incentivise item 3078 bruisers like Jax Irelia to scale up the sheen proc with bonus ad increasing items like item 3074 over item 3748 and guide them towards squishier builds to maintain their carry potential.

Beast BrawlerJan 8, 20193 votes

Yes make Mordekaiser tankier please, his base stats are abysmal and he's buggier than a fresh barn apple in late July.

AjXtarJan 8, 20199 votes

A mid laner saying that top laners needs to play tanks. YEAH RIGHT. If you want tanks, take them in your own lane.

Mid laners started bitching when Sion was strong and he was playeed, but you want us top laners to pick tanks because you want a meta that we don't like.

Make tanks be played mid or instead of adc if you want a tank meta. Give up your confort picks for a tank meta and don't sacrifice other roles for your own pleasure.

IfnethJan 8, 201926 votes

You’re assuming that no Top or Jungle player wants to pick a tank. Plenty of them do—they’re called tank mains and have been unhappy with their champs’ position in the meta for quite some time. Just go to their subreddits.

You’re also putting words in my mouth by implying that I want tanks to be mandatory Top lane. I never said that, but instead that they should be viable Top and Jungle. For that matter, I actually do play a tank whenever I get top. Poppy is fun, cute, and pretty darn good.

AjXtarJan 8, 20194 votes

you are assuming that tank mains are the majority and not just a small minority. Even when tanks are strong, the majority will pick something else, but not tanks. We don't enjoy tanks and definitely we don't enjoy a tank meta like op is asking.

RagnaveilJan 8, 20199 votes

A tank meta is impossible with how damage is at the moment. If they overbuff tank items to make tanks immortal, then sure.

Jerry SeinfeIdJan 8, 20194 votes

poppy doesn't play like a tank at all. Her best build just (sadly) happens to be tank.

RalanrJan 8, 201911 votes

Uh...what you mean doesn’t play like a tank? Just because she’s a very aggressive laner?

Jerry SeinfeIdJan 8, 20194 votes

she goes in and beats your ass, that's what bruisers do. Riot should just balance her around it, they tried to bring up her bruiser style some time ago if i recall correctly.

RalanrJan 8, 201917 votes

Uh, Maokai does the same thing. As does Shen.

Tanks are allowed to have aggressive trading patterns.

Jerry SeinfeIdJan 8, 20193 votes

mao literally just goes in and roots you. Shen used to be a duelist tank, but shen's not even in the game anymore so it doesn't matter. I never said a tank couldn't be aggressive, otherwise leo couldn't exist.

But Poppy is supposed to be a bruiser.

RalanrJan 8, 20199 votes

Poppy was reworked into a tank and functions as one. She and Mao have similar play styles in their aggression.

Jerry SeinfeIdJan 8, 20193 votes

poppy doesn't have nearly as much CC as mao does. There's a difference between locking someone down for your team and beating someone down for your team.

she has 90% ad ratios and barely any lockdown unless someone is dumb enough to stand near a wall (surprisingly alot of people are). y'all can sellout poppy all you want, poppy is a bruiser and i'll never give up on her.

IfnethJan 8, 20197 votes

Long AOE slow on Q. Dash denial on W—strong both when used and while off cooldown as a threat. Displacement and conditional stun on E. Knockup and game-changing displacement on R. That’s a lot of CC.

IlluminatraJan 8, 20192 votes

If a tank completely dumpsters you for 20 minutes without having a single skill shot then I guess poppy is a balanced tank.

RalanrJan 8, 20192 votes

Poppy ult is a skill shot friendo.

IlluminatraJan 9, 20191 votes

not when shes on top of you and insta casts it just for the extra damage/cc

:)))))

RalanrJan 9, 20191 votes

Yeah but that’s the problem with most of not all skill shots.

Iota ThetaJan 8, 20194 votes

[{quoted}](name=Jerry SeinfeId,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=HPqhe9OO,comment-id=0002000000010000000000000000,timestamp=2019-01-08T19:05:34.878+0000)

mao literally just goes in and roots you. Shen's supposed to be a duelist tank, but shen's not even in the game anymore so it doesn't matter. I never said a tank couldn't be aggressive, otherwise leo couldn't exist.

But Poppy is supposed to be a bruiser.

Umm..Poppy was announced and designed as a tank, bit more Warden with her disengage ult, peel, and mobility stopper

Jerry SeinfeIdJan 8, 20192 votes

according to her update page she's supposed to rush an offensive item to transition into tank items later like plenty of bruisers (used to) do.

RalanrJan 8, 20191 votes

Link?

Jerry SeinfeIdJan 8, 20192 votes

https://na.leagueoflegends.com/en/page/champion-update-poppy-keeper-hammer

it's not even hard to find.

RalanrJan 8, 20191 votes

You’re right, it does say that. Though Poppy normally doesn’t do that, going full tank and relying on her base damage or rushing a tank item first and maybe grabbing an offense item when ahead.

She could also rush offensive tank items like ibg.

Jerry SeinfeIdJan 8, 20192 votes

which is why i said "sadly her best build is tank". I'll never deny she works best as a tank, it's not how she was intended tho.

From conversations i've had with people that didn't like the rework, that's almost always the reason tho.

Helghans templarJan 9, 20191 votes

Well I like flexible champs anyways, nothing more fun than to do off meta builds that work.

Power CosmicJan 9, 20191 votes

Eating damage conceptually seems like it should be easy. If the mechanical level was equal, would a player rather practice on high ceiling damage champ or a lower ceiling tank. That is the trade off for playing the lower ceiling tank it is often safer and easier, if it is not there is no reason to play it over damage. Not saying I like or dislike it, but that is the way it is.

RalanrJan 9, 20191 votes

If the mechanical level were equal so would the ceilings.

Power CosmicJan 9, 20191 votes

If the tank and the carry have the same ceiling the game is broken bc, all else being equal, doing damage can always out carry absorbing damage.

RalanrJan 9, 20191 votes

Hence why your example is kinda bad.

AirKingNeoJan 9, 20191 votes

Top lane mains do not like tanks.

RalanrJan 9, 20197 votes

Except the top lane mains that play tanks.

AirKingNeoJan 9, 20191 votes

so like, mostly none of them?

I think forcing people to play a class by forcing it to be meta is really shitty. Given every champion I like sucks.

RalanrJan 9, 20192 votes

I mean, any meta can end up forcing people to play a certain class anyway. Supports are a primary example of this.

Elf0491Jan 9, 20191 votes

I love playing tanks, or at least tanky fighters, and this is exactly what happens. I haven't played top in a long time, because most of the champions I want to play would just get thrashed. I've been taking Nautilus as support the past season instead.

Lil Homie bustaJan 8, 20195 votes

I've already said this: tanks are the foundation of any game with rpg core. The moment when the answer to everything stops being "hit harder" or "hit first", when you cannot just easily kill your enemy, is the moment strategy blooms. You have to think outside the box and counter said tank. At least that's how it should be.

UlyssesISRJan 8, 20193 votes

[{quoted}](name=Lil Homie busta,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=HPqhe9OO,comment-id=0007,timestamp=2019-01-08T18:26:35.709+0000)

I've already said this: tanks are the foundation of any game with rpg core. The moment when the answer to everything stops being "hit harder" or "hit first", when you cannot just easily kill your enemy, is the moment strategy blooms. You have to think outside the box and counter said tank. At least that's how it should be.

They are a necessity(usually) in PvE type settings. But come PvP type, historically they have only served best as flag carriers, or just anything that requires carrying something from A to B. Even then they typically had to contest with high mobility type classes in these kind of game modes.

When you have different class builds other than tanks that can solo things like Baron, Rift Herald, Dragon(Elder). You don't really need tanks at all. Being able to do a tanks job as a DPS role nullifies the original purpose of a tank. Which is what we are seeing. Who needs a tank when you can build Ultra-strong life-steal/recovery in and outside of team battles. You literally function just like a tank, which is absorb as much damage as possible.

If League was strictly designed around the rock-paper-scissor concept, none of the above would be possible. Which would make game-play boring as hell.

The truth is, League has simply outgrown the old rock-paper-scissor concept. There is no such thing as a pure tank/dps/healer, everything is a hybrid now. So pure tanks just don't have a place in LoL. Everything you see afterwards is the result of the hybrid designs going on.

haaaaaaalpJan 9, 20194 votes

You haven't given a single reason why it has to be top or jungle instead of bot, mid, or support.

IfnethJan 9, 20191 votes

The polite answer: fundamental meta disfavors melee champions in the middle and bottom lanes. Midlane tanks would get pushed in and outroamed by mages and assassins. Botlane tanks would get poked out, and Support tanks are tanky supports rather than true tanks. In the Top and Jungle roles, they would suffer a range or waveclear disadvantage less often while also having a solo stream of gold and experience to buy items and gain levels.

The real answer: you’re presuming that no Top or Jungle player wants to play a tank and putting words in my mouth that I’m asking for them to be mandatory. There are whole subreddits of tank mains wishing their champions were viable again, and I want them to be.

haaaaaaalpJan 9, 20191 votes

{quoted}

The polite answer: fundamental meta disfavors melee champions in the middle and bottom lanes. Midlane tanks would get pushed in and outroamed by mages and assassins. Botlane tanks would get poked out, and Support tanks are tanky supports rather than true tanks. In the Top and Jungle roles, they would suffer a range or waveclear disadvantage less often while also having a solo stream of gold and experience to buy items and gain levels.

Underpowered melee champions are disfavored middle and bot. Melee champions have always been fine going mid and they were fine bot as well on 8.11 when marksmen weren't overpowered for once. Tanks can easily be designed with enough waveclear and sustain to go mid and bot. With proper balancing, there is nothing to stop tanks from going other lanes. Shift sion back to e max, decrease his melee damage and shield and he will have to poke to bully mages mid without breaking him top lane. Shift chogath back to before before he got % damage on his e, remove the cast time on his w (and buff the silence duration again) and he will be back to doing fine mid lane while being weaker top and jungle. Galio is already stronger mid lane. Nerf marksmen like 8.11 and tanks will find their way bot as well. Tanks are obviously already strong in support.

The real answer: you’re presuming that no Top or Jungle player wants to play a tank and putting words in my mouth that I’m asking for them to be mandatory. There are whole subreddits of tank mains wishing their champions were viable again, and I want them to be.

I never presumed anything. I was just pointing out that there is no reason why tanks can't be bot, mid, or support. The tank mains want their champions to be viable again but they don't care in what role. The only people who don't want tanks to dominate mid and bot lane are mid and bot lane mains. Tank mains would be fine if their champions were meta no matter what role. Top laners would be fine if tanks were viable mid/bot. Junglers would be fine if tanks were viable mid/top/bot. As far as I can tell, support mains are okay with anything but I'm not as familiar so I don't want to speak for them.

IfnethJan 9, 20191 votes

Mid Assassins are melees that can go Midlane, but only if they have ranged waveclear, as Ekko, Talon, and Zed do, or extreme mobility like Katarina does. Divers, Juggernauts, and Duelists generally lack these attributes and therefore aren’t optimal mid. They also do better on the long, isolated Top lane or newly skirmish-friendly Jungle, both places for solo-kills and dives.

Bottom The Marksman-Support combination is the most effective one available. It pokes out, pushes in, and denies every other combination; and has done so since Season 2. Starved of experience by sharing and gold by poke, a Tank Bottom would just lose the lane and then, once the Marksman scaled, the game.

Overall Imagine a tank who had enough waveclear to contest a mage, early tankiness to survive an assassin, poke to match a marksman, and snowballed into a burst threat or scaled into an AOE or DPS threat. It would be, in other words, a Marksman or Mage or Assassin who were also a Tank. It would simply be the best champion in the game.

Therefore, non-support Tanks belong Top and Jungle, where they would receive a solo stream of gold and XP without having to contest ranged opponents. And again, you claim to somehow speak for all Top, Jungle, and Tank mains. Poppy isn’t a Mid or Bottom Laner, and neither are Zac, Sejuani, etc.

haaaaaaalpJan 9, 20191 votes

{quoted}

Mid Assassins are melees that can go Midlane, but only if they have ranged waveclear, as Ekko, Talon, and Zed do, or extreme mobility like Katarina does. Divers, Juggernauts, and Duelists generally lack these attributes and therefore aren’t optimal mid. They also do better on the long, isolated Top lane or newly skirmish-friendly Jungle, both places for solo-kills and dives.

Tanks can easily have waveclear or poke to stay mid. Look at sion before they changed his e max build, galio now, or chogath before they put a cast time on his silence. It isn't hard to balance a tank to work mid lane.

Bottom The Marksman-Support combination is the most effective one available. It pokes out, pushes in, and denies every other combination; and has done so since Season 2. Starved of experience by sharing and gold by poke, a Tank Bottom would just lose the lane and then, once the Marksman scaled, the game.

Marksmen have been overpowered and shoved everyone out. However, riot has changed that philosophy now. Look at how well tanks did bot lane on 8.11 when riot tried to actually balance marksmen for once. The problem is not tanks bot lane being weak, it is marksmen bot lane being too strong. Fix the marksmen and everyone else including tanks can go bot.

Overall Imagine a tank who had enough waveclear to contest a mage, early tankiness to survive an assassin, poke to match a marksman, and snowballed into a burst threat or scaled into an AOE or DPS threat. It would be, in other words, a Marksman or Mage or Assassin who were also a Tank. It would simply be the best champion in the game.

You don't need all of that, just a handful of those qualities would be enough. We have already seen examples of tanks succeeding in other roles as I have outlined, people simply qq'd too much for them to stay in those roles.

Therefore, non-support Tanks belong Top and Jungle, where they would receive a solo stream of gold and XP without having to contest ranged opponents. And again, you claim to somehow speak for all Top, Jungle, and Tank mains. Poppy isn’t a Mid or Bottom Laner, and neither are Zac, Sejuani, etc.

They aren't in this meta but they easily could be in other metas. There is nothing about tanks that force them to go top or jungle. It is just that certain roles have been more vocal than others about getting tanks out of their role and force it onto some other role. There is nothing wrong with having tanks in the meta but there is no reason it has to happen top or jungle.

IfnethJan 9, 20191 votes

And every one of those designs was changed because it was not only overpowered Midlane, but also Top. That’s the problem with trying to make Tanks viable Mid.

It’s not about Marksmen’s being overpowered or not. They’re a ranged class that builds AD. Their inherent design pokes you out of lane unless you’re so strong early as to reliably all-in kill them and then snowball.

There’s the surface meta of which champs are drafted for which position, but there’s also a deeper one. Does anyone Jungle? How many? How many champions go in each lane? What kinds can survive there? That’s a broader, class-level question, with an answer limiting which champions can fulfill which roles.

For an example of a champion breaking that ‘deeper’ meta, see Gnar. He has ranged poke but is also a tank... aaaaaand Riot has had to nerf him underneath the pavement.

haaaaaaalpJan 10, 20191 votes

{quoted}

And every one of those designs was changed because it was not only overpowered Midlane, but also Top. That’s the problem with trying to make Tanks viable Mid.

That is blatantly false. Chogath was weaker top lane prior to his rework and became overpowered in the jungle only after the rework, his rework was due to riot having coding problems with smart cast cone spell animations. E build sion was much stronger mid land and because a larger problem top lane after they rebalanced his power. Galio has always been stronger mid.

It’s not about Marksmen’s being overpowered or not. They’re a ranged class that builds AD. Their inherent design pokes you out of lane unless you’re so strong early as to reliably all-in kill them and then snowball.

Except when marksmen power were actually brought in line like in 8.11, tanks did fine bot lane. Tanks can be designed to have reliable all in against ranged bot and mid while being weaker top where their all in would lose to juggernauts.

There’s the surface meta of which champs are drafted for which position, but there’s also a deeper one. Does anyone Jungle? How many? How many champions go in each lane? What kinds can survive there? That’s a broader, class-level question, with an answer limiting which champions can fulfill which roles.

The answers only limit where champions can go under the current balance and meta, not where champions in general can go. Tanks can easily be designed to go mid and bot, mid and bot players simply don't want that.

For an example of a champion breaking that ‘deeper’ meta, see Gnar. He has ranged poke but is also a tank... aaaaaand Riot has had to nerf him underneath the pavement.

Gnar's problem is being ranged melee hybrid. Tanks like pre rework sion, chogath, and galio (both pre and post) are all purely melee champions with the tools to succeed mid without breaking them in other roles.

IfnethJan 10, 20191 votes

Wait, are you arguing in favor of E-Max Sion as an example of a Tank that could go Mid? The only reason he worked there was that his E hitbox was broken, letting him push the wave for free while delivering non-stop poke. Galio became such a balance problem in professional play he had to be de-tanked. Insta-cast silence was not healthy design.

Marksmen’s power was not ‘brought in line’. They were so weakened that a bunch of fighters and mages like Darius or Swain could just come down and all-in them at Level 3. It wasn’t Tanks—they didn’t have the damage.

You haven’t explained how or why they could be designed to go Mid or Bot without being imbalanced. Pre Rework Sion was a balance nightmare who could 1v5 with two button presses—he was therefore reworked. Cho and Galio both became pro play problems, and one is effectively no longer a tank now.

The problem with a Tank Mid or Bot is the same as I said earlier. It would need ranged waveclear and poke to contest the lane against mages and Marksmen, while also either snowballing into a burst threat or scaling into an AOE or DPS threat. In other words, it would just be a squishy carry that weren’t squishy and also had tons of crowd control.

Imagine a Talon, Annie, or Ashe with 4K HP, 200 Armor and MR, and displacements and stuns and slows and game-changing engage or disengage. We had something like that less the crowd control: Tank Ekko and Tank Fizz. They were universally reviled and led to substantial kit and item changes.

haaaaaaalpJan 10, 20191 votes

{quoted}

Wait, are you arguing in favor of E-Max Sion as an example of a Tank that could go Mid? The only reason he worked there was that his E hitbox was broken, letting him push the wave for free while delivering non-stop poke. Galio became such a balance problem in professional play he had to be de-tanked. Insta-cast silence was not healthy design.

I'm showing that a tank can work mid such as one designed in line with e max sion. Chogath was healthy design prior to his silence change, riot simply had problems with animations on cone spells and how they interacted with smart cast. All of these champions could be models for tanks mid and they are just as healthy for the game as tanks top.

Marksmen’s power was not ‘brought in line’. They were so weakened that a bunch of fighters and mages like Darius or Swain could just come down and all-in them at Level 3. It wasn’t Tanks—they didn’t have the damage.

Marksmen were so "weakened" that they were still picked in 90% of games, more than half of the other archetypes in the game.

You haven’t explained how or why they could be designed to go Mid or Bot without being imbalanced. Pre Rework Sion was a balance nightmare who could 1v5 with two button presses—he was therefore reworked. Cho and Galio both became pro play problems, and one is effectively no longer a tank now.

That is straight up bullshit. Cho was never a problem for pro play back when he could go mid. He was only changed due to coding difficulties. Sion before the e change was just as healthy mid as any of the current tanks are top. Mid players simply complained more.

The problem with a Tank Mid or Bot is the same as I said earlier. It would need ranged waveclear and poke to contest the lane against mages and Marksmen, while also either snowballing into a burst threat or scaling into an AOE or DPS threat. In other words, it would just be a squishy carry that weren’t squishy and also had tons of crowd control.

In other words, previous iterations of sion or cho or the current iteration of galio. All of them are just as healthy or unhealthy mid for the game as regular tanks are for top. Tanks don't need half as much to function mid as you seem to think.

Imagine a Talon, Annie, or Ashe with 4K HP, 200 Armor and MR, and displacements and stuns and slows and game-changing engage or disengage. We had something like that less the crowd control: Tank Ekko and Tank Fizz. They were universally reviled and led to substantial kit and item changes.

We don't need to imagine it, we have already seen examples. They are just as healthy or unhealthy for the game mid as they are top.