Kalista's Kit and a Possible Terrible/Great Idea

Bonipherus··9 votes·2,180 views

Warning: Wall of Text. This started out as a response to a different thread but I got carried away and came up with this idea while typing.

Let me start off by saying I don't play too much Kalista but I do feel I know her strengths and weaknesses. I'll address two complaints that have been thrown around the boards before I address the real issue.

The first "issue" is that she is more gated by her support than other markspeople. Kalista gains attack speed when next to her bonded ally as well as her reliability to deal that juicy % health damage when both support and her attack the same target. This is a good way to gate a decent amount of her upfront power. A lot of people don't like this reliance on someone else but it's a somewhat interesting mechanic and I'd personally like to see it stay as it adds more uniqueness to the marksman roster. If you want a marksman that can dash all over and duel people then you've got Vayne and Lucian.

Second, a pretty popular thread came up a while ago asking for an execute indicator to be added for Kalista's rend ability. Even though this is not a numerical increase in dps this would be an insane buff. Kalista's E is pretty hit-or-miss and it's balanced to be that way. As Kalista, you're always thinking "oh man can I rend now or do I need another 2-3 autos to make absolute certain". This adds to her skill; the ability to tell when to rip out all those stacked spears for an execute. If you pull too early then not only can you not use your main damage ability again for a good 8 seconds - you can't even start stacking your spears again for the rest of the time you're auto attacking. If you pull too late you still kill your opponent, yes, but you've wasted valuable time that could have been spent elsewhere - you've traded uncertainty for time, less damage potential to your opponents, and more damage potential towards yourself and your teammates. Adding an execute indicator takes away these important moments of uncertainty and adds nothing but raw power through saved time and the near-impossibility to screw up. There is simply nothing interesting or exciting about a "kill them now" button that Kalista would have. Anyone who is going to argue this point with "but Garen has an execute indicator!" can remember Garen is a juggernaught and not a marksman and that his execute is melee range, single-target, an ultimate, and only usable once per fight.

Now for the meat of the issue: Kalista's Passive. I'll only be covering the Martial Poise part of her passive here as I shortly addressed the Oathsworn bit above.

MARTIAL POISE: Kalista cannot cancel her basic attack wind-up except by selecting a new target within range, and her basic attacks miss if she loses sight of her target before they hit. Additionally, her basic attacks only deal 90% AD physical damage. If Kalista enters a movement command while winding her basic attack or right after using Pierce, she dashes a short distance in the target direction, scaling with her boots tier. While dashing, her basic attack wind-up is only reduced by 0.66% per 1% bonus attack speed compared to the standard 1 per 1.

Kalista's biggest issue is that she can invalidate most melee champions in the entire game by making sure they simply can not catch her while simultaneously dealing strong damage over time against them. Before Kalista was released people would all complain about mobility creep. After her release you know players were in a tizzy over the new super-mobile marksman and how this amount of mobility would not be healthy for the game. The issue becomes more clear when used in high level play as it always required a very coordinated team to kill her due to the incredible slipperiness her mobility provided. Kalista basically dictated which champions could and could not be played on the rift. When slows were allowed to affect her jump speed Ashe became her counter and was her lane opponent almost every professional game. Immobile top laners weren't viable against her. This extreme mobility dictated so much in the game and the resulting effects weren't fun for anyone and is the main reason why she is currently in the state that she is.

Attack speed is supposed to be the go-to stat on her considering her passive and attack speed scaling. Riot even said during the marksman update that "just as other marksfolk align with cooldown reduction or critical strike chance as a core stat, we're pushing Kalista to embrace attack speed as her primary scaling given her stand-out strengths as a bunny-hopping battle-banshee". Ignoring the argument regarding difficulty using her passive at high attack speeds is pretty challenging mechanically along with the fact that you cannot cancel your attack inputs the problem about building her with all that attack speed is that her jumps don't scale that well with attack speed (66% effectiveness) so you lose dps unless you are standing still; something long regarded as suicide for a marksman.

Crazy solution? Keep her jump and lack of aa canceling but double down on her attack speed when shes standing still. Let Kalista break the attack speed cap when she is standing still but lower her already low dps somewhat when she's out jumping around!

Now, you may be thinking this exact thing just happened to Kog'Maw, an admitted failure of a rework. Why would they reinstate such a high attack speed champion again? Well, here's a quote from Riot Axes on why Kog got reverted:

"His unique attack speed interactions undercut the core identity that we intended to reinforce. The items and masteries that scale best with his new direction provide early- and mid-game power rather than late-game power, warping his power curve. More importantly, the ability to move in between attacks is essential for him to serve as most of his team’s damage output. He needs to be able to keep up with a moving teamfight, or else his opponents simply avoid his range and his allies can’t rely on his damage output as the primary or potentially only major damage dealer on a team.” I'll also add here that Riot said they were willing to try out the 5.0 attack speed thing in the future but that it would likely come with some "major challenges to deal with".

Basically speaking, Kog was fine pre-rework and this change didn't actually solidify his character how they hoped. This was probably the biggest factor; Kog had a healthy and unique place in the marksman roster before his 5.22 rework. They also mention the problem with not being able to effectively move while attacking at these incredibly high attack speeds - Kalista can still jump and attack unlike kog so it would be less hit-or-miss in her case.

This change would give her the low dps kiter vs high dps immobile killer play style that players can work around and show their skill and decision making prowess of when to jump safely and when to throw spears at lightning speed. This low-risk/low-reward and a high-risk/high-reward split identity will be a unique one in the marksman roster and should be interesting to watch, to play as, and to play against.

I'm sure there are still some concerns so here are some reasons why this option could still work on Kalista compared to other champions.

  1. Kalista hasn't had the amount of time that Kog had to completely solidify her identity and niche in the marksman lineup so a change like this wouldn't be as controversial to character as it was for him. Riot would have more opportunity to play around with this theme more and to change her kit in ways that would not be possible with Kog'Maw. Also, unlike Kog'Maw, Kalista does not have a healthy state she can or should be reverted back to; the only option is to keep tweaking her kit and divert power away from her mobility.

  2. On hit effect builds are getting nerfed quite a bit with the removal of the current iteration of Fervor of Battle and the fact that botrk still only does 6% current health damage instead of the previous 8% it had when Kalista was at her strongest. Side note: If on hit builds were still a problem Riot are still more than capable of changing her so that on hits are less optimal. For example, they could change her so that only the single, most powerful on hit effect she has is applied per auto attack.

  3. It's a possible way to keep the mobility of her passive. Many people say the only way to make Kalista fair is to remove the constant dashes she gets with every auto. She still keeps the ability to dash around a lot but simply won't be as effective at dealing damage unless she can find the time and positioning to stand still and let some spears fly.

  4. This change would appeal to players who really enjoyed the incredibly high attack speed play style of pre-revert kog'maw.

  5. Allowing Kalista to reach extreme attack speeds does not bring the inherent downside Kog'Maw had of being almost completely immobile. Kalista can still hop around opponents to not let a fight get too far away from her - thus avoiding the issue where "opponents simply avoid his range". Furthermore, the change also resolves the issue where "allies can’t rely on his damage output" because this damage isn't completely tied to an ability with a cooldown. Kog had all his power is built around his bio-arcane barrage and enemies could walk away when the ability was activated and re-engage right when it went on cooldown. Kalista would not have this problem as her passive has no cooldown and is therefore always available.

  6. This change would remove the extreme power imbalance at high levels of play. Do you remember Deft kiting with a Kog'Maw at 5.0 attack speed and looking like he was gliding backwards and forwards? The top marksmen players could overcome Kog's intended weakness with their superior mechanical play. There's no need to worry about that because movement commands issue a non-cancelable jump from Kalista that reduces her dps. You have to choose when to jump and when to let loose. It's impossible to do both.

Riot would obviously need to change some numbers in Kalista's kit to make this work out so I'll add some examples of possible nerfs that could go along with this change to make sure she isn't too strong

Max attack speed cap is 4.0 instead of 5.0

Attack damage ratio on dash reduced to 85% from 90%

Attack speed on dash reduced to 60% from 66%

Cooldown on Q increased to 9

Ultimate cooldown changed from 120/90/60 to 120/100/80

Only the most damaging of on hit effects is applied to Kalista's auto attacks

Edit: Fixed a quote and a spelling error. Added an idea for limiting on hit effects and possible other changes Riot would likely need to examine to balance this kit.

14 Comments

EcchiOtakuTM2 votes

How to fix kalista=

Revert most of her nerfs except ulti-wise and finally give passive a real condition of only being enabled when near her oathsworn. If her oathsworn is dead but she's near the body she can still use her dashing.

The real issue of kalista is how much she can do without her oathsworn even being there thus they gutted her without one but also made her BARELY playable with one.

Aside from that I can't think of anything, but kalista should NOT be enabled to be an independent champion completely but hitting her base AS was 100% not the way to go. However until her passive has an actual condition she really can't be buffed.(And I feel this is the right way to give her passive a condition.

Also sorry if you addressed it or somewhere similar, I skimmed through loosely x.x

Bonipherus3 votes

I'm not sure that truly fixes Kalista as you'd still be left with a Kalista who can kite like no tomorrow as long as her support is nearby. I know you said that if her Oathsworn dies she can still dash while around their body but fights don't always stay in one spot. Also, bodies disappear once they respawn and that could get pretty awkward if I'm expecting to dash and suddenly I can't because my Lulu just came back to life. But overall I don't want to be completely useless if my support happens to die somewhere in a teamfight but we need to rotate to defend an objective. It also will probably be much less fun for the support since a change like that will inadvertently limit their roaming options and force them to always have to stay right by her side. Kalista is already gated by her Oathsworn because 1. Kalista cannot use her ult without them 2. she loses attack speed from their lack of presence and 3. she is much less able to proc her % damage from her W. Whether or not she needs to be gated by her support even further, I feel, is a conversation that I am open to and should be addressed but I disagree with your proposed change.

EcchiOtakuTM1 votes

Yea the kiting while her oathsworn is near i'm actually fine with, the change is far better to hit her splitpushing prowess and punish her when she tries a solo-act a lot more and push her more towards her "duo adc" design(AS is sure as hell not the right way).

Fights will move constantly however if the support has to die for a play if in the right spot kalista can still go on. Although I think that maybe it should be "if the oathsworn dies kalista will want 'Vengeance' which'll allow her passive to be active for 1-18(based on level) seconds after the support dies") Either way I'm trying to give the dash conditions but in situations where the support HAS to die for her team kalista isn't left fishboned in the water if they have to fight over a support dying for a good reason. If that makes sense, but I think the "Vengeance" idea would be better than fighting around a dead oathsworn I proposed before. But just to clarify, this is an additional effect, not trying to make it centerfold, it's just a QoL buff to fix moments when the support just undeniably HAS to die but your team has to fight.

You are right it would hit support's roaming options but kalista is the kind of adc who tends to roam with her support most often due to the nature of her ulti anyways, and she DOES provide quite a heavy amount of utility for teamfights. I feel that sacrificing the support's solo roaming somewhat(I say somewhat because you COULD still roam as a support the kalista player just has to play a bit safer) is reasonable.

My main concern is that they can't actually do anything for kalista unless her dash was more conditional because of it's nature to just completely outduel a lot of champs who try to get her even when alone. Also her AS nerf would be reverted if her dashing was changed in this manner since that would hit her solo power quite a lot but I really believe it's the right direction that they should go.

(Also just a quick mention, it wouldn't remove her Q's dashing I forgot to say that.)

Bonipherus3 votes

Apologies for not going far enough into this in my first response. A reason for not limiting Kalista's dashes through her Oathsworn is because so much of her power is gone when they are away. Now, as you said, there would be trade offs for a support making a roaming play without Kalista (mostly that Kalista would be extremely vulnerable due to no support and only having half her kit available to her) but I don't think I emphasized the burden on the support player enough here.

Lasy year, Riot made some updates to Fiora and Gangplank. They added mini-games to both of these champions that were meant to be interactive, meaningful, and add depth to both fighting as and against them. The problem? Their opponents didn't want to play these mini-games. They didn't sign up to play that, why are they forced to play this mini-game? They wanted to play against Gangplank, not his barrels. They wanted to play against Fiora, not themselves. These mini games still exist but they were downplayed and nerfed and those champions ended up being compensated elsewhere in their kits. Draven still has his axes and a meaningful mini-game in them but he is the main player of the game. Opponents can play and are encouraged to play but it's not the end-all be-all aspect to playing against Draven, it's the end-all be-all to playing as Draven. The Draven player is the one who signed up for it.

Kalista sort of brings this own form of "I didn't sign up for this" feeling/mentality but inflicts it on her own teammates. Currently, Kalista is certainly weaker without her Oathsworn than with and this is okay. She's dependable alone but not so dependable that she is a sitting duck without. Taking away even more of her kit and linking it to her lane opponent, especially a part of her kit this big and powerful, will make support players feel forced to stay next to Kalista the entire game. Leaving a Kalista who can't dash, proc her W, or ult is leaving half a champion alone and a decision a support won't feel they can make. I believe the kind of dependency you are proposing creates an unfavorable and nearly forced condition on a support player, even if they did not want to play under these conditions. Kalista signed up for the Oathsworn so she should be the main player behind it.

On a side note: I like the Vengeance idea as it fits Kalista's character and lore - giving Kalista a temporary boost in power if her Oathsworn dies next to her. I'm not sure of it's viability though since Kayle had a similar passive back in the day that was apparently a balancing nightmare and was eventually scrapped.

I'd also appreciate it if you fully read my post instead of just skimming it if you wish to continue this conversation.

Radiant Seraph1 votes

Then would kalista lose dps from jumping? I mean, like reduce even more her attack speed/damage scaling while she jumps. Because this change could result in an unnecessary buff and breaking her again, in a different way.

Bonipherus1 votes

Yes, her ad scaling and attack speed jump ratio would likely be the first place Riot would attempt to reduce power when she jumps to discourage using the dash all the time. Other areas of tuning would also likely be needed such as her % max health damage on her W but this idea is only in a conceptual phase rather than in a more concrete statistical/numerical phase.

Teridax681 votes

While I really like the idea of giving Kalista an incentive to become less mobile, I don't think she should be given the option of dealing any large amount of damage, since she already does too much. She already has large amounts of on-demand mobility, utility and crowd control in her kit, and even if she'd have to make a mobility tradeoff for it, giving her potentially massive on-demand DPS would essentially give her top-tier access to practically everything a marksman could ask for, which was her original problem, and still persists to a degree even now. For her to receive any kind of buff, she needs to lose stuff from her current kit first, and what changes she receives should aim to improve what's left, rather than add another bonus.

Bonipherus1 votes

I agree, Riot would probably have to tune her attack damage and speed ratios during dashes, the % max health damage on W, and probably all her cooldowns to balance these changes.

MEMEME6701 votes

Adding an execute indicator takes away these important moments of uncertainty and adds nothing but raw power through saved time and the near-impossibility to screw up. There is simply nothing interesting or exciting about a "kill them now" button that Kalista would have.

You're missing an important point here.

Kalista's E is a significant portion of her power. Now, let's say I could wave a balance wand and instantly and perfectly balance her to whatever specifications I wanted, but I had to be specific (So, I can't balance her for an AP and an AD build and a Tank build, I have to be specific, but the same for masteries, lanes, and everything else within reason.)

Where do I balance her based on her E? Do I assume the player always rends when it will kill, and with 10% margin for error? (meaning, if it takes 30 spears to rend execute, they rend on 30, 31, 32, or 33. If it takes 50, they rend on 50, 51, 52, 53, or 55.)

That seems kind of absurd, no? So maybe I balance it to with 30% margin for error. This means she isn't braindead but is balanced for people who put the work in, right?

But then, what happens when someone becomes so good that they can hit it within 10%? Sure, maybe this takes hundreds of Kalista games, but assuming Kalista is strong high level players will reach that eventually. Then what? She's balanced at many levels of play, but becomes fairly OP at high levels of play.

And maybe that's fine, yeah? The problem is, this eventually trickles down to lower levels of play as well. As people see her newfound strength once you get good, and they see others playing her extremely well, they now have motivation to want to play her that well, and they know exactly what to do. This makes it monumentally easier for people to become that good on her, so eventually Diamond players start doing it, and then Platinum, and etc until you reach a level where people simply aren't good enough and will never reach that level of skill. (They try, but as part of becoming that good rise out of that rank.)

Adding an execute indicator fixes all of this. Sure it's not extremely deep, but it's balanced. Not that they need to make that change specifically, but I think it's fairly likely that at some point, something is going to have to be done about Rend, and people asking for an execute indicator may simply be a symptom of that, if not the best solution to it.

Bonipherus2 votes

If you added an execute indicator, you'd have to absolutely gut this ability because you just made it low risk/high reward. Doing so would be counter to her design, however. Kalista isn't about tons of damage through her auto attacks; she is all about stacking less-damaging auto attacks to lead to a huge burst in damage. This play style is very unique to League and something lots of people find enjoying and compelling about her. As soon as you give an execute indicator on this type of champion who resets their damage over and over you add too much reliability on a high risk/high reward ability and that ability will certainly be nerfed to compensate and make it low risk/low reward. After that nerf Kalista players will be forced to be more and more auto attack focused damage because she needs to get to that lower damaging (but guaranteed) execute point more quickly - thereby taking her further away from her unique marksman play style.

I also think you're vastly over emphasizing the difference in skill levels between elos over just the damage this ability deals. The main differences between elo's is positioning, calculating cooldown timings, map awareness, objective control, etc. not "I know exactly how much this one ability will do". A player can quickly figure out how much Kalista's rend does in a multitude of ways: you use it in lane on both your opponents and on minions, you use it on neutral monsters, dragon, and baron, you use it in skirmishes around the map. The more games you have the better understanding you have on the damage it inflicts but it certainly doesn't take hundreds of games to ascertain the relative damage you'll inflict to opponents when you use it. Even pro's will mess up now and then with it and that's okay. It's alright to have that level of uncertainty in games because they create great high and great low moments.

Now, I'm not 100% against execute indicators in every scenario ever. But you can't say that "because X champion has Z then Y champion should also have Z" or even "A ability has B and C ability is similar to A ability therefore C ability should have B as well". Looking at League this way makes every champion too similar and ignores key differences that make those champions unique and exciting. The rest of their kit has to be accounted for as well, which is why I'm okay with Darius and Garen having execute indicators... They're juggernaughts, they are slow, melee champions who deal tons of damage and have clear weaknesses. Kalista though? She's a potentially hyper-mobile marksman who deals damage over time and is very safe, her rend is also a reset... and it's not even her ultimate.

MEMEME6701 votes

If you added an execute indicator, you'd have to absolutely gut this ability because you just made it low risk/high reward.

Okay, but I never said you had to add an execute indicator, in fact mentioning that it's probably not the best solution in my last paragraph...

{quoted} Not that they need to make that change specifically, but I think it's fairly likely that at some point, something is going to have to be done about Rend, and people asking for an execute indicator may simply be a symptom of that, if not the best solution to it.

I also think you're vastly over emphasizing the difference in skill levels between elos over just the damage this ability deals.

I think you're missing the part where I said she was perfectly balanced in every other way. Thus, players would have nothing else to exploit. They'd learn things like normal, but it wouldn't allow her to be OP, that's part of the premise. Thus, only the E mastery 'matters' for this discussion. I'm not saying players would go from bronze to diamond simply upon learning how to use her E or anything.

but it certainly doesn't take hundreds of games to ascertain the relative damage you'll inflict to opponents when you use it.

To get it within 10% consistently I definitely think it does. 10% gives you what, 1 attack margin for error in the early game, and a max of 3 late game? That's really, really small, especially considering it's only in one direction (as hitting E 1-3 attacks early doesn't kill the target and thus you become much weaker.)

But you can't say that "because X champion has Z then Y champion should also have Z" or even "A ability has B and C ability is similar to A ability therefore C ability should have B as well".

Did I ever say this? I don't remember saying this, so I don't understand how this paragraph is at all relevant.

TheHappyReaperz1 votes

Max AS speed is 2.5. Please, let it stay there.

Bonipherus1 votes

That's definitely not out of the question. Would just have to find another way to give incentive to Kalista for standing still and attacking while building attack speed as a primary damage source. If you think of a way to do this please let me know.

Boulderox1 votes

I know this may seem really odd, but give her an ammo system like Jhin & Graves, she is depicted with 3 spears in her back always anyways and carrying 1, but 4 seems a tad copy paste :/, but she is able to kite very well with her 4 AA's then has to wait a time frame for another round of spears, this would of course throw her entire kit into chaos, but this would limit not only her ability to make melees obsolete, because now she has a frame of time she can't use Q or kite hop.

Give her Q something cool like hitting 3 AA and the final one with Q does bonus damage

But idk, her trouble is she needs mobility to do what she wants but invalidates entire champions by existing, and needs to be chained to succeed, and does subpar currently, Kalista & Azir suffer from the point in lol that it was more about abstract unique kits and special snowflake kits with less in mind for balance sake. which sucks Ekko and Kindred could be classified here too if they wanted to, new champions are so complicated that their existence can throw the game into a shitstorm.

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