Are lane bullies healthy?

Ralanr··5 votes·766 views

From what I understand, the job of a lane bully is to shut down their opponent so hard and so early that they cannot scale well the rest of the game. Champions like Pantheon (who I main so I do bully a lot I suppose), Renekton Lucian and Darius are what come to mind when I imagine a lane bully. But it seems a lot of people (or perhaps just G&B) hate fighting oppressive champions. I've heard a few times that even Pantheon is toxic (personal opinion: He's not. Am I biased? Yes and if a Pantheon is constantly throwing spears at you then he's burning mana fast like a moron) because all his strategy is his heavy damage point and click Q (item 1029 works well against that) his W (which is a one second stun in a game where there are worse) his E active (which deals double damage to champions but you can avoid it easier than Darius Q) the passive (Hey, Zed has something similar that starts at 50%) and his passive.

Now the answer with Pantheon is "He falls off late game." but that's not what people seem to be asking for. They don't want a sucky laning phase, which from what I understand is the sign of a good lane bully.

So, are lane bullies healthy? If not then what should be done about them?

33 Comments

Truly Prideful8 votes

Lane bullies are necessary. They stop teams from just picking a bunch of really good lategame champions and having the passive farmfest until then. I don't think any of the current lane bullies are all that bad. They each have ways to play around them or hell, beat them.

But yeah, I think they're perfectly fine for this game.

kJs1 votes

Why not just turn all current lane bullies to late game champions?

Ralanr1 votes

That might ruin champions who aren't hyper carries.

Truly Prideful2 votes

Turning all current lane bullies into late game champions would solve nothing. A new set of champions would take their spot as lane bullies because now there is a new set with better early game bases than the rest. I would just be a neverending cycle.

Cynika5 votes

Lane bullies suck because who likes getting shut down in lane, however I think they are needed since there are still late game hyper carries. There needs to be a way to counter that.

Ralanr1 votes

But couldn't those carries get fed throughout the mid game? Just curious.

Cynika2 votes

Sure they can, but having a lane bully makes it harder for them. As others have said, letting champs like veigar and nasus passively farm is just asking to lose to them.

The Sword Saint3 votes

Yes. They exist partially so both team's can't just safely blind pick 5 late game hyper carries and afk farm up. The existence of lane bullies is what makes champions with a 'normal' power curve (not lane bullies, not hyper carries) viable at all.

Ralanr1 votes

Can you give an example of normal champions? So far all I think of is the mage class.

The Sword Saint2 votes

It's easier to just give examples of non-normal power scale champions.

Mage's who aren't the likes of cass, karthus, ryze, tanks in general, fighters who aren't early game bullies and also aren't like nasus, trynd, jax, adc who aren't bullies or vayne, jinx, tristana, assassin's who aren't lane bullies like leblanc and don't ever get the points of reliably killing more than one champ in a fight, supports who aren't just kill lanes....

Basically most of the champions. There are too many late game champions for too many roles to just ban them all out, so in a world where early game bullies didn't exist everyone would just pick as many late game champs as they could and play safely until they outscaled. The game would move much slower than it does now and would only really start 20 minutes in when the late game champs came online, and everyone who didn't get to have a late game champ would just have to suck it up because they wouldn't have the power necessary to shut down a passively farming hyper carry due to not being an early game powerhouse.

Anomander3 votes

As long as a champion has counter play then yes they are healthy. Counter play means more then just a counter pick.

Hayaishi22 votes

They are as healthy as their kits are. If they counterplay/windows of vulnerability etc.

Oppressive lane bullies are a necessary evil, because Vayne, Yasuo, Nasus, Veigar exist.

Marthian1 votes

Vayne not really so much anymore since her first item is extremely forgiving in terms of build path, cost, and gives sustain as part of the build.

She's still susceptible, but not as much as she used to (or should be.)

Punkkee2 votes

in my opinion lane bullies that destroy lane but fall off in lategame teamfights are healthy for the game yorick, panth. Renekton is in an awkward position so i can't really say. he gets outdamaged by alot of champions whose powerstrikes are lategame darius. ._. old darius was healthy but new darius really isn't

kJs1 votes

Pantheon and Renekton both get outdamaged by their late-game counterparts. Darius is the one in an awkward spot. He's got dominance in lane with the ability to deal epic amounts of damage whilst building tanky but because he has massive reserves of true damage in his kit, he is still a real threat to squishies late game. He falls off, even if it's slight, sure but he's still a threat that you have to avoid in teamfights. His ability AoE ranges give him a lot of zoning potential. Not easy to take down when Sterak's exist.

Meep Man2 votes

They are a needed part of the game that forces snowbally hyper carries to fear something and/or build some defenses.

Lugg2 votes

They are absolutely healthy. Hyper carries totally bully the late game. So you need champs that can do the same early.

DazedOnlooker1 votes

I tend to pick champs who can easily get bullied out of lane a lot(because i like my chosen champ) so i do find legit lane bully champs to be infuriating and almost impossible for me to deal with, but that's because i have little experience with dealing with them in those situations, so being forced to play like a coward, missing every single cs always under turret..often can't even farm under my own turret makes me wish that those champs would get banned every game. But on the flip side, i feel as though the game is less boring this way, and i guess it COULD be considered healthy if only 20% of the champ pool is this oppressive right off the bat.

But my MAIN problem i have with lane bullies is when the bully can easily avoid getting punished/counted for their oppressiveness in lane, like for instance if i were to ask for a gank, then i expect that it should be possible to shut them down to give me some breathing room to farm. But if all we can do is scare him away from his creeps because he had 5 "get out of jail free" cards built into his kit just for him to just come right back over after my jungler left to resume being an #%$ with no consequences then i consider that to be a huge problem -_-.

Ralanr3 votes

I can see why everyone hates Riven all the more now.

Edit: I meant because of her escape potential.

HaiLnKill1 votes

[deleted]

Ralanr1 votes

When I say constantly, I mean spamming them right after cooldown. I do use item 2041 and I buy 1 item 2004 with 2 item 2003. I can still run out of mana if I'm not careful, and constantly spamming my spears to get you out of lane isn't being careful.

It's better to save them for a kill in my opinion.

HaiLnKill1 votes

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Ralanr1 votes

Perhaps you can explain in greater detail of why he is toxic and what toxicity means. I would love to hear it.

HaiLnKill1 votes

[deleted]

Ralanr1 votes

Yeah, saw one that couldn't push past a Sion in lane. It sounds like you just hate lane bullying in general though since that's what lane bullies do, make you think twice about farming.

Who do you normally play?

HaiLnKill1 votes

[deleted]

Ralanr1 votes

Forced top?

Sorry that's a phrase I never expected to see. Usually bot lane feels like the "forced into" lane (personal perspective).

I believe Gnar himself is a lane bully with his poke. Irelia I don't know enough about and I keep getting surprised when I see a Kennen top. I've seen one wreck a Garen and I keep thinking "isn't he a midlaner?"

HaiLnKill1 votes

[deleted]

Ralanr1 votes

I can see that.

Top lane mages. The thought makes me shiver.

Droogzy1 votes

I tend to play late game oriented champions, but honestly, I don't have a problem with lane bullies, they're a necessary part of this game to act as a means to balancing out late game champions. If anything, I feel they need a buff honestly, this game is waaaaay too late game oriented, which is why I've been winning so much as oppose to in the past.

Do people dislike them? Obviously yes, but keep in mind, those same people also dislike how a fully itemized hyper carry can vaporize an entire team,

kJs1 votes

Buffing the early game of lane bullies is probably not a healthy way to change the game overall. Lane bullies scale well into mid game but when they are just as effective, if not more, than their mid-game or late-game counterparts then it becomes easy to close out games early, therefore no late-game. Most games, IME, finish between 25 to 35. All the late-game designed champions have to be buffed to compensate etc.

I think lane bullies are fine right now. Veigar and Vayne are really the two main perpetrators of "toxicity" because of how safe their kit is relative to how much damage they dish out, which needs to be toned down a little bit.

Ralanr1 votes

I will admit the only lane bully I've seen scale well into mid is Darius in his current form. I only do well with Pantheon mid game if I am well fed from my lane. Even then a poor call on my part throws me into death timers.

Droogzy1 votes

{quoted}

Buffing the early game of lane bullies is probably not a healthy way to change the game overall. Lane bullies scale well into mid game but when they are just as effective, if not more, than their mid-game or late-game counterparts then it becomes easy to close out games early, therefore no late-game. Most games, IME, finish between 25 to 35. All the late-game designed champions have to be buffed to compensate etc.

I think lane bullies are fine right now. Veigar and Vayne are really the two main perpetrators of "toxicity" because of how safe their kit is relative to how much damage they dish out, which needs to be toned down a little bit.

I was about to say in response to anyone who mentioned Veigar or Vayne that they are the two outliers of hyper carries that definitely need to be looked at.

But I guess its a case by case business, the OP mentioned Pantheons whom I think is the King of strong early game, then does nothing late game. I would argue its necessary to buff lane bullies because of how dominate hyper carries are. If you let them reach late game, its literally game over for you in most case. It should be difficult to reach that point though in my opinion. I think mid-game becomes the mid ground between lane bullies and late game champions though, if you're doing well as a lane bully, then you'll be ok, but if you're doing well as a late game, you'll also be ok. Mid-game to me is a moot point in the conversation of early vs late.

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