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It Really Sucks When Riot Gets it Right and then Takes it Back

The Yetii Rider··1 votes·583 views

For those who don't follow the PBE closely, at the beginning of the Cho'Gath changes, he had a 12% bonus health ratio on his ultimate's true damage, and the AP ratio was removed entirely.

This was the correct design, as it encourages Cho'Gath to build tank, it rewards him for building tank, it gives him a reason to be excited about his infinite scaling, and so on. But then Riot changed it and shipped it to live with a 50% AP ratio (down from 70%) and a 10% bonus health ratio.

And now, with a 100% AP ratio on his Q, a 70% ratio on his W, a small ratio on his E and a 50% on his ultimate, we get full AP Cho'Gath. And full AP Cho'Gath gets tanky and stays tanky because his stacks don't fall off and he gets rewarded for bursting people down. We have a full AP champion that only gets harder to kill the more burst he can deal.

Cho'Gath has AP ratios because his kit is old. Any updates should be looking to tune them down, not preserve them. Tanky burst champions are never healthy, even immobile ones. AP Cho players can still enjoy the free sustain on his passive (RIP mana potions) and the huge burst of his Q. We don't need his ultimate to be a point and click AP nuke that makes him invincible without so much as a Cloth armor.

16 Comments

Big Lincoln2 votes

???

those changes were trash when they started out.

tanky burst champions are never healthy

almost every tank deals their damage in burst

chogath has high ratios because on top of his long cast times his Q is also a delayed skillshot

without so much as a cloth armor

enjoy being free food for any AD DPS then

The Yetii Rider1 votes

Tanks don't deal damage.

His ultimate doesn't have a long cast time, and it doesn't need to penetrate MR.

There was nothing wrong with the changes. A tank Cho doesn't build any AP anyway.

Big Lincoln1 votes

Tanks don't deal damage.

blatant lie

those changes were shit, nobody played tank cho health scaling damage was a mistake too

Paroe1 votes

[{quoted}](name=The Yetii Rider,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=k5bewTIW,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2017-02-24T16:10:23.390+0000)

Tanks don't deal damage.

His ultimate doesn't have a long cast time, and it doesn't need to penetrate MR.

There was nothing wrong with the changes. A tank Cho doesn't build any AP anyway.

Cho'gath was always intended to be a mage. He is the original battle mage; an AP champion designed to be in melee range. In order for him to be in melee however he was given feast so he could build more AP. It just so happens that HP is a fantastic stat and lets him be a capable tank.

Cho'gath is a fantastic juggernaut with the current changes, and retaining the AP playstyle while promoting a true bruiser playstyle is a GREAT thing. item 3110 item 3027 item 3143 item 3065 item 3158 item 3285 Its a pretty fun build tbh. Ludens is optional and depends on how much ms your targets have.

The Yetii Rider1 votes

Cho'Gath has too much CC to be a juggernaut. If he's dealing as much damage as a juggernaut with the range and CC of a mage, that's probably an issue Riot will address.

Paroe1 votes

[{quoted}](name=The Yetii Rider,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=k5bewTIW,comment-id=0000000000010000,timestamp=2017-02-24T16:19:16.862+0000)

Cho'Gath has too much CC to be a juggernaut. If he's dealing as much damage as a juggernaut with the range and CC of a mage, that's probably an issue Riot will address.

Not really? He needs his CC because unlike other juggs he has neither an MS boost or a gap closer. Honestly Cho and Sion are like Darius. Should darius have his CC removed?

The Yetii Rider2 votes

Darius doesn't have range.

Sion isn't a juggernaut because his ultimate gives him way too much mobility. Sion is a vanguard.

Jorencice1 votes

Dude... Cho has a single easily dodged ranged attack.

With 400 ms you can walk out of chos q even if hit dead center.

So i wouldn't exactly say hes a ranged mage.

Ralanr1 votes

[{quoted}](name=The Yetii Rider,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=k5bewTIW,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2017-02-24T16:10:23.390+0000)

Tanks don't deal damage.

His ultimate doesn't have a long cast time, and it doesn't need to penetrate MR.

There was nothing wrong with the changes. A tank Cho doesn't build any AP anyway.

Sion generally disagrees.

Paroe1 votes

{quoted}

Sion generally disagrees.

Sions damage is very AD reliant and situational to boot. Sion is meant to be a juggernaut as well.

Consider champions like cho and reworked sion "Proto juggernauts". High health, good base damage, okay scaling.

Ralanr3 votes

{quoted}

Sions damage is very AD reliant and situational to boot. Sion is meant to be a juggernaut as well.

Consider champions like cho and reworked sion "Proto juggernauts". High health, good base damage, okay scaling.

First time I'm hearing of this.

BastionKross1 votes

Cho gets to have high AP ratios because his abilities have Sion levels of counterplay. His Q and W telegraph like a mofo and E and R are melee range on a champion that has absolutely zero mobility. If he nails you with any of his abilities, it's because either his team set you up for him with chain CC or you dun goofed.

Just as well, I have no fear that a full AP Cho with a ton of HP is going to be much of a threat. It takes more than HP to be tanky (there's only one AP + armor item), and there's so many %HP abilities in League nowadays that having that much HP is not always a great thing depending on who you're fighting and what they've built. For example, any marksman with a dash or blink that built a BotRK has a more than fair chance to kite the hell out of Cho while dodging his abilities.

Very Hard Engage1 votes

crazy how late game scaling champions exist, its almost like hes got no mobility or escapes and needs to be completely sure of himself when he goes in.

PermabannedGaren1 votes

I personally think Cho badly needs a rework to make him less of a weird abomination of a champion with abilities that have no synergy (I say this as a former Cho main, not a hater), but Cho shouldn't build full tank, that's bullshit. Nothing about Cho'gath implies that he should be a tank other than his being tanky. He's a giant monster who eats everything, not your big buddy who uses his CC and utility to help his friends or save their lives. He's a killer, much like Darius.

He should be tooled to be an AP juggernaut, getting a bit of AP (like RoA and Abyssal), then full tank. He'll need a rework to fully gain this status, but the changes right now are fine.

The Yetii Rider1 votes

Alright, well I can see I'm in the minority here so I'll just admit that I was wrong. The AP scalings and high magic damage that Cho has seem to be an important part of his kit to enough players that Riot was right to keep them.

Ahristocats1 votes

[{quoted}](name=The Yetii Rider,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=k5bewTIW,comment-id=,timestamp=2017-02-24T15:59:13.839+0000)

This was the correct design, as it encourages Cho'Gath to build tank, it rewards him for building tank

And he is still rewarded for building tank, and cho isn't a tank to begin with

[{quoted}](name=The Yetii Rider,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=k5bewTIW,comment-id=,timestamp=2017-02-24T15:59:13.839+0000)

And now, with a 100% AP ratio on his Q, a 70% ratio on his W, a small ratio on his E and a 50% on his ultimate, we get full AP Cho'Gath.

we don't, smart cho'gath players know what to build on cho and it isn't full ap

[{quoted}](name=The Yetii Rider,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=k5bewTIW,comment-id=,timestamp=2017-02-24T15:59:13.839+0000) And full AP Cho'Gath gets tanky and stays tanky because his stacks don't fall off and he gets rewarded for bursting people down. We have a full AP champion that only gets harder to kill the more burst he can deal.

Full AP cho is awful, he sucks and can't get to targets due to how slow he is with no mobility and too much delayed spells

[{quoted}](name=The Yetii Rider,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=k5bewTIW,comment-id=,timestamp=2017-02-24T15:59:13.839+0000)

Cho'Gath has AP ratios because his kit is old.

Cho has AP ratios because he is unique in his kind Cho isn't a tank Cho isn't full AP Cho is Cho

[{quoted}](name=The Yetii Rider,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=k5bewTIW,comment-id=,timestamp=2017-02-24T15:59:13.839+0000) Any updates should be looking to tune them down, not preserve them. Tanky burst champions are never healthy, even immobile ones.

Because you said so sherlock?

[{quoted}](name=The Yetii Rider,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=k5bewTIW,comment-id=,timestamp=2017-02-24T15:59:13.839+0000) AP Cho players can still enjoy the free sustain on his passive (RIP mana potions) and the huge burst of his Q. **We don't need his ultimate to be a point and click AP nuke that makes him invincible without so much as a Cloth armor. **

yes we fucking do

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