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Lee Sin is popular...not sure if broken...

chipndip1··4 votes·969 views

Given how Lee Sin's stats go from a 47% win rate in Bronzie-Bayou to about 46% in the Diamond Dynasty, can we really say he needs...nerfing?

Like, I know he's popular, but that's due to the LCS boosting his popularity. He's used in the LCS because he's highly versatile, pressures early, and his main drawback is difficulty, which a pro jungler probably gives less than even two atoms of shits about. Since he's used in the LCS, more people see how strong he can be at the top of his skill ceiling and play him. They don't realize that Lee is still really hard to play efficiently and bomb it, thus ruining everything and losing. This is what I assume, anyway, given his HUGE popularity and his pretty shit showings as far as wins goes. Broken would probably look more like Janna than anything else, who has a pretty high play right and near a 55% win rate at the same time in both Plat and Diamond.

I think Lee's issue is that he's TOO general. Nerfing him, however, would probably be unfair to the champ outside of very minor things like a decrease in his natural movement speed. Seriously...why can he ward hop and run that damn fast? He's fucking blind...how does he run this fast?

36 Comments

Silent Pace1 votes

[deleted]

chipndip11 votes

[{quoted}](name=Silent Pace,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=k5ErHrzO,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2016-01-20T01:24:30.937+0000)

If we don't keep saying "nerf lee sin" they might just buff him. The nerfs will never happen anyway so we might as well stop the buffs, right?

If you put it that way, keep it going I guess. xD

Ceiron31 votes

Lee Sin is not OP. He's just extremely fun and is my main. The reason why I main Lee is because there's no skill ceiling and you can always become better at it. In Lee's case it is not because Lee's OP it is because the player playing Lee is just very good with this champ. The same counts for riven. When u watch boxbox playing her, you automatically want to play her too and think she's the definition of freelo. Until you get to notice that it's not that easy.

I think Lee right now needs is in a perfect spot. Not too strong not too weak. New jungle item makes up for the for the removed sight wards but also force the player to use 2 different buttons for ward jumps(yellow trinket is more oftenly used right now). Sometimed this slows you down by alot. But I'm pretty sure I'll get used to it.

Asayake 5150glow1 votes

{quoted}

Lee Sin is not OP. He's just extremely fun and is my main. The reason why I main Lee is because there's no skill ceiling and you can always become better at it. In Lee's case it is not because Lee's OP it is because the player playing Lee is just very good with this champ. The same counts for riven. When u watch boxbox playing her, you automatically want to play her too and think she's the definition of freelo. Until you get to notice that it's not that easy.

I think Lee right now needs is in a perfect spot. Not too strong not too weak. New jungle item makes up for the for the removed sight wards but also force the player to use 2 different buttons for ward jumps(yellow trinket is more oftenly used right now). Sometimed this slows you down by alot. But I'm pretty sure I'll get used to it.

I had a game where a Lee who was slightly fed jumped into the middle of the enemy team 1v4. He got a kill before he died, with Q+Q+E+R. Then I went in and got a triple, but I was really fed so that's fair.

I think he just does a little too much damage too quickly with a lot of dueling potential and no mana.

That being said, building him tank also kinda makes him suk. Was playing a game as an assassin, doing well, only one who might match me was enemy Lee. Cept then he built tank so NOPE! he couldn't oneshot me.

chipndip11 votes

{quoted}

I had a game where a Lee who was slightly fed jumped into the middle of the enemy team 1v4. He got a kill before he died, with Q+Q+E+R. Then I went in and got a triple, but I was really fed so that's fair.

I think he just does a little too much damage too quickly with a lot of dueling potential and no mana.

That being said, building him tank also kinda makes him suk. Was playing a game as an assassin, doing well, only one who might match me was enemy Lee. Cept then he built tank so NOPE! he couldn't oneshot me.

He's a fighter/assassin.

OF COURSE he's gonna do heavy damage. He's an early jungler that primarily fights by going in with high damage combos to grab early leads. All fighters have methods to get good damage off. Fighter/Assassins usually even more so.

And with this said, of course he's gonna be weaker built tank. Fighters are off-tanks, but as a fighter/assassin, he's gonna be...not as stellar...if he's forced to build as a team's main tank option.

Asayake 5150glow1 votes

{quoted}

He's a fighter/assassin.

OF COURSE he's gonna do heavy damage. He's an early jungler that primarily fights by going in with high damage combos to grab early leads. All fighters have methods to get good damage off. Fighter/Assassins usually even more so.

And with this said, of course he's gonna be weaker built tank. Fighters are off-tanks, but as a fighter/assassin, he's gonna be...not as stellar...if he's forced to build as a team's main tank option.

He jumped 1v4, got a kill and chunked half of everyone else. Name one other champion who can do that (besides a fed Fizz, of course).

chipndip11 votes

{quoted}

He jumped 1v4, got a kill and chunked half of everyone else. Name one other champion who can do that (besides a fed Fizz, of course).

Depending on exactly how that fight went, almost any number of champs can pull something around that ballpark off.

Asayake 5150glow1 votes

{quoted}

Depending on exactly how that fight went, almost any number of champs can pull something around that ballpark off.

He... landed his Q from line of sight (no terrain in way), activated it, hit E, ulted. That's it.

chipndip11 votes

{quoted}

He... landed his Q from line of sight (no terrain in way), activated it, hit E, ulted. That's it.

  • Did he have jg buffs?

  • What was his score at the time? Was he ahead or behind?

  • What about his victims? Were they fed or feeding?

  • Did he get away or did he die?

  • How much health did everyone have by the time that started?

  • What was his build at the time?

A lot of variables that can influence that scenario one way or the other for a large number of champs that can ultimately do similar damage.

EcchiOtakuTM1 votes

Illaoi, Darius, Mages, MF, and some others.

Asayake 5150glow1 votes

{quoted}

Illaoi, Darius, Mages, MF, and some others.

How many of those have huge mobility?

EcchiOtakuTM1 votes

He never mentioned anything about mobility just who could go 1v4 get a kill and chunk half of the enemy HP.

And trust and believe me a lot of mages who can do that actually have mobility o.o

Ceiron31 votes

{quoted}

He jumped 1v4, got a kill and chunked half of everyone else. Name one other champion who can do that (besides a fed Fizz, of course).

Zed Nida Fizz Fiora Darius Irelia

I suppose you aren't playing the same game as I do.

You guys are coming up with seriously bad arguments for why lee is strong. Yes he's good early but that doesn't mean he's overpowered in an overal match. If he was overpowered he would be instabanned in esports games like Mordekaiser was getting instabans for a while. Lee sin is just a strong early pressuring jungler that can be completely shit when you fall behind.

Look at Nidalee now, her spears are back to what they were in s3. The horror from back then my mind is still dazed because of that. 3-4 items Nidalee can 1 shot my adc (80%hp) with a single spear.

Atm there are way stronger junglers that are way more consistent. Lee gets to dominate the game when he gets a FB early on but if not he's just another jungler with good utility in the mid game. You can't compare Lee with Elise/Rek'sai, these 2 have by far a way stronger kit.

The thing is that Lee just excells in SoloQ where the enemy team is not playing as a team. Lee can easily invade both buffs and declare the enemy jungler useless if his teams doesn't assist him in some way.

ChargeItDownMid1 votes

[deleted]

Handin Out Naps1 votes

That isn't how it works at all, just because a champ has a high play rate doesn't mean his playerbase is worse at him. Look at playerbase average played games Lee has 113 and Galio has 44....

Now look at playerbase experience distribution chart players that have played 50-125+ games as galio make up a tiny 12% of his playrate, while players with 50-125+ games as lee sin make up 60% of his playrate. Players with 1-5 games make up 4% of lees playerbase and 5-15 make up 8.2% of his playerbase, meanwhile 1-5 for galio is 40% of his playerbase and 5-15 is another 26% of his playerbase. Galio has a WAY bigger percentage of new players than lee, this is why pickrate is a terrible arguement.

The fact of the matter is percentage wise Lee has many more experienced players than Galio (remember percentage wise) and a lot less new players. I'm not even going to bother brining up the winrate with games played because that just further proves my arguement.

http://champion.gg/champion/LeeSin/Jungle http://champion.gg/champion/Galio

chipndip11 votes

{quoted}

That isn't how it works at all, just because a champ has a high play rate doesn't mean his playerbase is worse at him. Look at playerbase average played games Lee has 113 and Galio has 44....

Now look at playerbase experience distribution chart players that have played 50-125+ games as galio make up a tiny 12% of his playrate, while players with 50-125+ games as lee sin make up 60% of his playrate. Players with 1-5 games make up 4% of lees playerbase and 5-15 make up 8.2% of his playerbase, meanwhile 1-5 for galio is 40% of his playerbase and 5-15 is another 26% of his playerbase. Galio has a WAY bigger percentage of new players than lee, this is why pickrate is a terrible arguement.

The fact of the matter is percentage wise Lee has many more experienced players than Galio (remember percentage wise) and a lot less new players. I'm not even going to bother brining up the winrate with games played because that just further proves my arguement.

http://champion.gg/champion/LeeSin/Jungle http://champion.gg/champion/Galio

To be fair: Champion.gg doesn't exactly update its stats all that..."fast". I use LeagueofGraphs.com to get more accurate info.

Handin Out Naps1 votes

I dont think an update would change these percentages much, they have been like this patch over patch.

The Voids Call1 votes

The reason this isn't an ok state for lee, riven, yasuo or even zed (though only in 1v1), is because their utility and mechanics don't allow for the opponent any control over the fight. Opponents are forced to rely on the Lee/Riv/Yas making a mistake, and outplaying themselves. This means in theory, a perfect player of the 3, could actually be impossible to beat in any 1v1 situation.

WalkingInACircle1 votes

His ult does too much damage.

ChargeItDownMid1 votes

[deleted]

chipndip11 votes

{quoted}

Yes you can say that he is too strong based solely on pick+ban rate alone. Remember, pick+ban rate correlates the best with champion strength out of all of the easily accessible stats.

Also, you have to be careful when using winrates for champions with high pick+ban rates. Pick+ban rates artificially deflate winrates.

Thank you, and I'll keep that in mind when checking through champ stats in future instances.

Handin Out Naps1 votes

Also keep an eye on average games for player base and the playerbase experience distribution chart. Those show just how skillful one playerbase is at a champion compared to another, basically it kills the whole high pickrate = low winrate arguement. Those can be found on chanpion.gg

The Voids Call1 votes

Yes lee sin is OP, but it's not because of something to do with numbers. It's because he controls and dictates a fight. This tends to be true for any champion with short CD mobility, and doesn't have some kind of stacking cost attached to it. Riven Yasuo Zed LeeSin

Coming from an actual Tae Kwon Do national champion, it's all about tempo. They control the pacing of the fight. It's actually kinda funny, how similar sport fighting is to 1v1 in league. These champions have the most control over the distance between each party. If they're against someone they can't beat in melee range, they have the ability easily to keep their distance (regardless of what the other person does), and wait for an opening. They can also easily escape after testing out the damage of the other champion, before disengaging out of range. On the other hand if they are against someone with more range than them, they have the ability to engage onto and stick close to the target. Which is convenient because most of the time a ranged champion will lose to a melee champion if in melee range.

IcyPepper1 votes

Given how Lee Sin's stats go from a 47% win rate in Bronzie-Bayou to about 46% in the Diamond Dynasty, can we really say he needs...nerfing?

Well, if he has a high skill cap as people say, then a 50% win rate is not something that indicates he's perfectly balanced.

But otherwise, I got no real comment on his balance atm.

jaymc11301 votes

He's op as hell in coordinated team play. Part of his lower win rate totals are fluky because of the natural chaos of uncoordinated teams in solo queue, even in high level play. Part of it is that there are several other viable picks that can perform the exact same functions as him like elise (early game pressure, dive ability, etc) and perform them just as well. Part of it is that he is a very high skill floor as well as skill cap champ and even high level players who don't spend a lot of time practicing him can play him very poorly, which is not the same as a champ like a volibear or mundo. For most champions like this the case tends to be that they will have slightly lower than 50% win rates despite being very strong or even overly strong picks. In Korea, for most of last season on their ladder, Yasuo was the number one priority ban despite a sub 50% win rate. Its because the best yasuo players simply made the champion look broken as hell when he was already strong and emulators attempted to copy the style and would fail, depressing the win rate. There is no question that, all things being equal with all other champions, Lee and Elise are the top of the viable Jungler pool of champions at the moment. As with all champions though, those with simpler team interaction in uncoordinated play will show higher win rates than more complexly interacting champions.

chipndip11 votes

{quoted}

He's op as hell in coordinated team play. Part of his lower win rate totals are fluky because of the natural chaos of uncoordinated teams in solo queue, even in high level play. Part of it is that there are several other viable picks that can perform the exact same functions as him like elise (early game pressure, dive ability, etc) and perform them just as well. Part of it is that he is a very high skill floor as well as skill cap champ and even high level players who don't spend a lot of time practicing him can play him very poorly, which is not the same as a champ like a volibear or mundo. For most champions like this the case tends to be that they will have slightly lower than 50% win rates despite being very strong or even overly strong picks. In Korea, for most of last season on their ladder, Yasuo was the number one priority ban despite a sub 50% win rate. Its because the best yasuo players simply made the champion look broken as hell when he was already strong and emulators attempted to copy the style and would fail, depressing the win rate. There is no question that, all things being equal with all other champions, Lee and Elise are the top of the viable Jungler pool of champions at the moment. As with all champions though, those with simpler team interaction in uncoordinated play will show higher win rates than more complexly interacting champions.

This is true, but how do you necessarily nerf Lee and Elise (especially Lee) given this info? Nerfing him would make him pretty much shit tier outside of pro play.

I know Lee's strong. I know he doesn't need buffs. However, the problem is that Lee's kit is so flexible that he does too much, making him a really good pick on paper almost all the time. Still, it takes more effort to draw someone climbing a mountain than to actually climb a mountain.

Basically, Lee's in a weird position where the only thing balancing him in the game is his skill floor being so high. How does one even nerf that outside of making a man that literally can't see not be one of the fastest champs in the game?

jaymc11301 votes

{quoted}

This is true, but how do you necessarily nerf Lee and Elise (especially Lee) given this info? Nerfing him would make him pretty much shit tier outside of pro play.

I know Lee's strong. I know he doesn't need buffs. However, the problem is that Lee's kit is so flexible that he does too much, making him a really good pick on paper almost all the time. Still, it takes more effort to draw someone climbing a mountain than to actually climb a mountain.

Basically, Lee's in a weird position where the only thing balancing him in the game is his skill floor being so high. How does one even nerf that outside of making a man that literally can't see not be one of the fastest champs in the game?

There is no good solution. The best bet is to simply play around him, which high level players are used to after years and years of him being at the top of that particular champion pool, the net effect showing up as, you guessed it, a depressed win rate. Its not because the best Lee players are out played, no. They go on wrecking face as always with an absurdly useful champion. Its the not so good Lee's that get outplayed regularly, either in a strategic or tactical sense, oftentimes both.

Cenobite Azaziel1 votes

{quoted}

This is true, but how do you necessarily nerf Lee and Elise (especially Lee) given this info? Nerfing him would make him pretty much shit tier outside of pro play.

I know Lee's strong. I know he doesn't need buffs. However, the problem is that Lee's kit is so flexible that he does too much, making him a really good pick on paper almost all the time. Still, it takes more effort to draw someone climbing a mountain than to actually climb a mountain.

Basically, Lee's in a weird position where the only thing balancing him in the game is his skill floor being so high. How does one even nerf that outside of making a man that literally can't see not be one of the fastest champs in the game?

The only weakness for lee is "falling off" during late game. I mean, the only weakness for a player that can't insec. You still get the insane early game pressure, dueling power and god like ganking. You just fall off.

IF you know how to insec lee has no weakness.

chipndip11 votes

[{quoted}](name=Cenobite Azaziel,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=k5ErHrzO,comment-id=000600000001,timestamp=2016-01-20T23:13:18.300+0000)

The only weakness for lee is "falling off" during late game. I mean, the only weakness for a player that can't insec. You still get the insane early game pressure, dueling power and god like ganking. You just fall off.

IF you know how to insec lee has no weakness.

Yes...this is why I said the only thing balancing Lee is his difficulty...

AHeroNamedHawke1 votes

Lee's pick rate has been 30%+ since 5.21

LCS started on 5.24

?

chipndip11 votes

[{quoted}](name=Charles Barklius,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=k5ErHrzO,comment-id=0007,timestamp=2016-01-20T22:50:09.757+0000)

Lee's pick rate has been 30%+ since 5.21

LCS started on 5.24

?

It's not like this is the first one. He's used in pro play pretty much constantly.

jaymc11301 votes

{quoted}

It's not like this is the first one. He's used in pro play pretty much constantly.

Last season we got some significant diversity in pro play, largely due to the new smite upgrade options allowing other picks to keep pace or almost keep pace with Lee and Elise in the early portions of games. Chilling smite in particular was huge, allowing a large number of champions to have access to a tool to improve their ability to gank pre 6. The significant price increase for smite upgrades along with the new trackers knife were two dramatic indirect buffs however to Elise and Lee and I expect we will again see them played far more often than other champs because of this. Any champ who needed chilling smite to reach an equal footing with Lee and Elise last year now has to sacrifice something, either early game pressure, or an item slot to utilize SS and maintain adequate vision.

AHeroNamedHawke1 votes

{quoted}

It's not like this is the first one. He's used in pro play pretty much constantly.

Golly I wonder why that is

chipndip11 votes

[{quoted}](name=Charles Barklius,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=k5ErHrzO,comment-id=000700000001,timestamp=2016-01-20T23:08:50.041+0000)

Golly I wonder why that is

Because he's a generalist that's only hindered by difficulty, something that pro players aren't bothered by in the slightest.

Kuronok21 votes

He is a broken champion. He may be balanced now, but it doesn't mean he is not broken.

Bears Dont Care1 votes

Lee Sin is the perfect champion...even Riot admits it. He has EVERYTHING, a jungler wants, so there isn't a reason to not use him outside of him not fitting specific team comps.

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