As title says.
Illaoi and Darius are infinitely better juggernaughts. Both beat Garen like a drunk Russian stepfather.
And Sion and Chogath and Ornn are infinitely tankier tanks. Volibear too now.
There's simply no reason to pick Garen unless you wish to beat yourself senseless as some kind of penance. He is too weak.buff please.
Thank you.
Hashihime6 votesLet me think about it...
No.
Kaioko4 votesGaren has always been the simpler one of all of them. He can deal a lot of damage and does so while being mechanically simple. He will never be as good as other juggernauts for more experienced players and that's fine. He's the Annie of the top lane.
mew281 votesOther then the fact that most those champs are just as easy as Garen.
Morgest Hatake1 votesNot true, many champions have a simple kit. And Garen is not easy to use, because of his limited range, he has a weak early game and a weak late game, that's not fair.
Critmaster Garen4 voteswith every other top lane fighter getting buffed, and garen having no other place on the map, they could at least give him some improvements.
i think before they give him straight number buffs, they could do a lot for him to make his kit work a bit better for experienced players. if hes still on the weak side afterwards, they can still buff his numbers.
here are some kit tweaks id want them to do for him:
as for number buffs to his kit, there are these possibilities:
id definitely want them to do all of those kit tweaks, and then look how hes doing. if those kit tweaks arent enough, they could chose one or two of those direct number buffs and it should probably be enough.
DarwinTheory1 votes[{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=k3EA37qW,comment-id=0003,timestamp=2018-03-02T17:11:37.093+0000)
with every other top lane fighter getting buffed, and garen having no other place on the map, they could at least give him some improvements.
i think before they give him straight number buffs, they could do a lot for him to make his kit work a bit better for experienced players. if hes still on the weak side afterwards, they can still buff his numbers.
here are some kit tweaks id want them to do for him:
- increase his q animation speed with champion level (starts out as slow as now and speeds up significantly)
- allow him to activate w during the q animation (hes currently locked out of his w during his q)
- reduce the timer to cancel his spin from 1 second to 0.5 seconds
- improve the targeting mechanism of villainy
as for number buffs to his kit, there are these possibilities:
increase his base health/lvl by 100 hp at lvl 18. he has pretty low base health for a juggernaut
change the scaling of his w passive a bit and remove the cap from the stack mechanic (0.1 stack per cs after 30 resists)
add a partial cd refund to his ult, similar to what they did for lux ult
increase his base ad per level slightly. last time i checked, he was 6 ad behind other juggs at lvl 18
give him 1% max health physical damage on auto attacks and spin ticks against non villain targets and lower the flat spin base damage slightly if neccessary. but it should still end up as an overall damage buff.
id definitely want them to do all of those kit tweaks, and then look how hes doing. if those kit tweaks arent enough, they could chose one or two of those direct number buffs and it should probably be enough.
How do you handle Darius?
I mean a good Darius. Not a random scrub. One that knows how to play. Would you say the matchup has much counterplay?
Critmaster Garen2 votesHow do you handle Darius?
I mean a good Darius. Not a random scrub. One that knows how to play. Would you say the matchup has much counterplay?
difficult to say. i think it depends on exactly how darius opens up a trade with you. you definitely cant take extended fights against him early on.
there are multiple ways for darius to open a trade. what he wants to do is walk up to you, hit you with auto attack + w to slow you and set you up for a q, then he wants to hook you back in and auto attack you 2 more times for 5 stacks.
generally against darius in lane, you want to max q to increase the duration of the movement speed buff. never let him walk up to you. make him burn his hook to get you into melee range. then spin into him and hold your q. when he uses w on you, immediately cleanse with your q, silence and run away. he shouldnt be able to catch up to you or q you before youre out of reach, since hes still silenced.
your q is your most important tool to be able to take short trades against him and disengage. be careful how you use it and dont waste it on minions.
if you dont screw up too much, he shouldnt be able to all in and kill you and you should be able to farm out the lane. from there, its basically the jungler that decides the outcome.
bone plating is pretty good against darius and absorbs a lot of his damage on short trades. but on the flip side its just as good against you aswell.
your best bet is to try and get him to poke at you with his q and hit your minions in the process, while you try and dodge it. it causes him to push the lane and get into a vulnerable spot where hes prone to being ganked. if you have your w up, you can even intentionally take a q from him to the face and parry it to get him to hit your minions. it will deal almost no damage. but be careful not to get hooked right afterwards.
RagingDerpness1 votesIf your Garren and your matched up with a Darius.
You pretty much just counter your abilities with his.
You want hit Darius with your Q when Darius tries to hit you with his Q.
You will silence him canceling his attack.
Then you want to W right before Darius uses his W on you.
This will minimize the damage of his Crippling Strike.
If he hooks you with his E you simply press your E as well.
As a Garren going against a Darius your best advantage is your passive and the fact that your have no mana.
Which means your passive counters Darius's passive and that you are only limited by your cool down whereas Darius has mana to account for.
I hope this is helpful.
Critmaster Garen2 votesIf your Garren and your matched up with a Darius.
You pretty much just counter your abilities with his.
You want hit Darius with your Q when Darius tries to hit you with his Q.
You will silence him canceling his attack.
Then you want to W right before Darius uses his W on you.
This will minimize the damage of his Crippling Strike.
If he hooks you with his E you simply press your E as well.
As a Garren going against a Darius your best advantage is your passive and the fact that your have no mana.
Which means your passive counters Darius's passive and that you are only limited by your cool down whereas Darius has mana to account for.
I hope this is helpful.
i dont think cc stops darius q. its not a channeled ability. once the indicator pops up, the axe will follow through.
you using your w to reduce his w damage is correct, but you need the silence and slow cleanse of your q to get out of his range. you can only deal with darius in short trades. you cant ever take extended trades against him. he will destroy you if you let him get to 5 stacks.
RagingDerpness1 votesI didn't realize that it wouldn't cancel Darius's Q but you can still utilize the strategy because of how Darius Q deals minimal damage when hit by the hilt of his axe.
And I completely agree with avoiding his passive after he gets his ultimate.
But playing it safe against a Darius is bad idea
I would suggest big trades with darius then back off
Also keep in mind that you should not agro Darius because his Q cooldown is Fairly short.
The best time to all in for a kill on Darius is when he is below 25 percent mana because this would prevent Darius from Q spamming.
This is a fairly hard matchup to begin with.
But the best way to counter a Darius is to destroy him early game.
Deny him Mid and Late game cause this is where he shines the most.
Critmaster Garen1 votesI didn't realize that it wouldn't cancel Darius's Q but you can still utilize the strategy because of how Darius Q deals minimal damage when hit by the hilt of his axe.
And I completely agree with avoiding his passive after he gets his ultimate.
But playing it safe against a Darius is bad idea
I would suggest big trades with darius then back off
Also keep in mind that you should not agro Darius because his Q cooldown is Fairly short.
The best time to all in for a kill on Darius is when he is below 25 percent mana because this would prevent Darius from Q spamming.
This is a fairly hard matchup to begin with.
But the best way to counter a Darius is to destroy him early game.
Deny him Mid and Late game cause this is where he shines the most.
darius gets a shitload of ad when he gets 5 stacks on his passive. you cant take extended trades with him early on ever. it doesnt work and you wont win them.
on garen you dont want extrended trades anyways, since your cooldown windows are too long. you just want to apply 1 or 2 seconds of spin damage, hit him with your q and get out as fast as possible before he gets more stacks on you.
otherwise youre just standing in his face with nothing but your auto attacks, and his bleed passive and the 40 ad and upwards he gets for hitting 5 stacks on you means darius is clearly going to win auto attack trades with you. its not even a contest.
RagingDerpness1 votesGenerally you don't want to trade at all with a darius.
What I've been saying in my last few comments is alternatives instead of just letting Darius poking you for free.
But if your having this much trouble with Darius and no other top laner then you should just main Renekton.
I think your overestimating Darius's passive and underestimating Garrens kit.
You should also consider that this shouldn't be a 1v1 scenario if your jungler is decent and knows how to gank.
I've played both in the passed but not too many games have I seen a Darius while playing Garen or a Garren while playing Darius so I have no reason to be worried about it as of right now.
Often times I find that people who think that a certain champ is broken often times don't fully understand that champions mechanics.
I'm not saying that your wrong and I'm right but you should consider the person who asked about the counterplay in this match up (80sGuyGaren).
He is probably confused on what to do now so I'll leave the final answer to you CritmasterGaren.
Please incorporate some my feedback in your answer so that 80sGuyGaren can get a detailed explanation on what to do in this scenario.
Thank you and have great day!
Vekkna1 votesHow is a Darius doing anything when silenced, you can W a ton of his damage, and you can sit back and heal up any time he outplays you?
chipndip14 votesGaren has the same issue Sona has: His fans want him to be stronger and feel more rewarding to play, but they don't want to give up his extremely 1-dimensional game play to get it.
So the answer to this is: No. Riot has literally added mechanics to EVERYTHING in his kit, save Q, since I've started playing. His R has a true damage variant now, his E can break armor, his W's mechanics have been changed repeatedly and now it gives a crap ton of resistances and tenacity with proper timing, and his passive's effectiveness has generally been buffed from before. Given the fact that, ultimately, ALL GAREN CAN DO IS Q, SPIN, THEN DUNK, what the hell else are they supposed to do with the guy without making him overbearing or annoying to play against?
Critmaster Garen2 votesGaren has the same issue Sona has: His fans want him to be stronger and feel more rewarding to play, but they don't want to give up his extremely 1-dimensional game play to get it.
his kit is more complex than a lot of champions who are more competitive. inlcuding sona or janna.
just as you described, he has a lot of mechanics that need to be micro managed. it doesnt make his kit difficult by any means, but hes certainly not easier to play than other, similar champions because of it.
plus, hes probably one of the champions with the highest item build diversity in the game. if you know what youre doing, you rarely build the same items on him every game, like you can with other champions who have maybe 2 or 3 builds with 3 to 4 core items and minor variations on the other two. there are a lot of different item builds to chose from on garen, and which one you want to pick usually changes from game to game.
no one can tell me the fact that his abilities dont have a resource cost makes him more difficult to play than, say pantheon, jax, akali, nasus, volibear, singed and other mechanically simple champions. id know, because i played all these champions. especially since mana barely means shit any more in the age of corrupting potion and manaflow band.
he might be A simple champion of many, but not THE simplest champion by any stretch of the word. and even compared to similar simple champions, hes doing piss poorly for the most part, and some improvements are justified.
chipndip11 votesLook at the second paragraph again.
This kit is limited at its foundation. No amount of extra side bits or fun facts changes what I said. Not because I'm being "stingy" or "mean"...but because literally what else can you do besides inflate him with numbers? We don't care about random bits of complexity. We care about depth, and Garen's play pattern just does not have depth. More depth than Teemo? Yeah, but you aren't getting any points for having more depth than Teemo.
Critmaster Garen1 votesLook at the second paragraph again.
This kit is limited at its foundation. No amount of extra side bits or fun facts changes what I said. Not because I'm being "stingy" or "mean"...but because literally what else can you do besides inflate him with numbers? We don't care about random bits of complexity. We care about depth, and Garen's play pattern just does not have depth. More depth than Teemo? Yeah, but you aren't getting any points for having more depth than Teemo.
small bits of complexity can add depth to a simplistic kit.
his w buff has probably been the most successful buff hes ever received. not just because it adds power to his kit, but it rewards skillful use of the ability very similar to fioras riposte. yet it basically changed nothing about the general function of the ability.
a simplistic kit can be the foundation to add mechanical depth, without scrapping its entire concept.
garens w still has a low skill floor, but increased significantly in skill cap with the addition of the mini riposte.
ive provided a whole list of tweaks they could do for his kit, that would effectively buff him by just making his kit a lot less clunky and more reliable for and against players who know what theyre doing.
DarwinTheory2 votesPlease love Garen RIOT :(
I will sing songs of your deeds and sacrifice TWO goats to the Gods in your honor! Maybe three depending on the love shown.
DarwinTheory2 votesPlease love Garen RIOT :(
I will sing songs of your deeds and sacrifice TWO goats to the Gods in your honor! Maybe three depending on the love shown.
riot!
I killed a Goat.
Make it two. Honor the Gods. Buff Garen. Thanking you.
RainXBlade2 votesGaren's at 50% win rate. Why is there a need to buff him when he's simple to play, yet relatively balanced?
Critmaster Garen2 votesGaren's at 50% win rate. Why is there a need to buff him when he's simple to play, yet relatively balanced?
there are two factors to consider with that 50% winrate. not many people play him at plat and upwards. its mostly people who specifically main him and should have noticably more than 50% winrate on him as a result.
also, while hes around 50% wr at plat, it looks much worse around diamond and master tier, if hes currently even played at above diamond.
so he could still use some buffs for more experienced players. he dropped off over the last 2 or 3 patches, and since riot is still in the process of buffing other top laners, he will continue to fall behind, if he doesnt get at least a little bit of help.
Thewhitebrow2 votesAs a Garen player, I am pretty sure he has the worst kit in all of lol. I mean other than a silly all star game joke, the champ is the dead last champ to see any competitive time in any region. They nerfed his Q so the only CC he has (which isn't even hard CC) doesn't scale and the actual speed you run at doesn't increase either, just duration slightly. His W may be the only stackable passive in the game that is not infinite unlike SION health, Nasus Q dmg, Veigar AP. His E doesn't really shred armor all that well either until you get a Black Cleaver and even then his base AD and growth is Garbage. R is a point and click execute and is what makes him fun to play, but ya kinda a downer watching every other top laner get buffed and be wwaaay more useful. He's slow, provides no CC, literally does not scale. I mean what kinda tank doesn't have CC? Think about it... If you want him to be a tank, then give him hard CC (grounded on Q or something) If you want him to be part of that juggernaut group hes gotta have some actual damage.
Fear the Kayn1 votesHe's pretty balanced. He trades he damage that Darius has for more tankiness. He W makes him insanely damage absorbent.
Critmaster Garen3 votes[{quoted}](name=Fear the Kayn,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=k3EA37qW,comment-id=0005,timestamp=2018-03-02T19:38:26.047+0000)
He's pretty balanced. He trades he damage that Darius has for more tankiness. He W makes him insanely damage absorbent.
tankyness will mean a lot less when conqueror rolls around.
thats another thing. garen is a juggernaut who relies heavily on defense and his damage reduction. conqueror is going to be much more useful against him, than its going to do anything for him. especially since hes a champion whos cooldown gated without in combat sustain and looks for short trades instead of extended fights.
this is probably another thing that is going to hit him hard, when other fighters just bypass his resistances and damage redcuction.
heroikc1 votesI don't know how Garen can be buffed... And Illaoi is just perma-annoying, so she doesn't really count for anything.
Smokin Penguin1 votesThis is for anyone who isn't familiar with Garen's kit
His passive allows him to sustain himself better than majority of top laners by regenerating a % of his max hp every half second regeneration is doubled when bellow 25% max hp which increases to 50% max hp at level 11
His Q Is a steroid that removes all slows and gives him movement speed and increases the damage done by his next attack while also silencing anyone hit
His W is also a steroid that passively gives him Armor and MR after killing a unit (maximum 30 resistance) and when activated Garen gains 60% magic and physical damage reduction and he also gains 60% tenacity for the first 0.75 seconds for the remainder of it's duration Garen reduces incoming physical and magic damage by 30%.
His E For the duration, is ghosted (meaning he can move through units) and deals physical damage to enemies within range, increased by 33% when damaging a single enemy, It can critically strike, Enemy champions hit 4 times have their armor reduced by 25% for 6 seconds. Hits after the 4th refresh the duration of the debuff.
His R passively Garen marks the enemy champion with the most kills in the last 5 minutes as a "Villain" Garen's basic attacks and each spin of Judgment against the Villain deal 1% of their maximum health as bonus true damage on-hit. Active: Is an execute that deals magic damage which is converted to true damage when used on the villain 175 / 350 / 525 (+ 28.6 / 33.3 / 40% of target's missing health)