Maokai's new ult is too slow to work as an engage ult.

Ralanr··90 votes·8,551 views

Maokai was originally a Warden tank, a subclass more focused on peeling. So when he was announced in the vanguard update I was confused. I assumed though that they'd make him more aggressive to better match how people are playing him.

This however is just dumb. I'm all for unreliable abilities, as long as they actually have a decent level of player control to showcase some skill (Sion's ult is a perfect example of this with his wall drifting).

This ult however not only lacks much control beyond when you summon it (at least to me) but is also laughably unreliable. It moves so slow that you'd need someone on your team to land some hard CC on the enemy to hit them with it.

I know it's as wide as the lane, but this is an ability you're expected to start a teamfight with on Maokai. This is his engage ultimate, yet it looks like it needs to be used as a follow up engage to be effective. Or as a counter engage (not sure how it works towards dashes).

This ult needs some changes imo. I'd make it thinner for increased speed if that didn't just make it a rooting Nami ult.

Edit: So it has come to my attention that Maokai is still considered a Warden tank. If that is the case, then I do not worry about this ult being an engage ult.

175 Comments

DeathBurst93 votes

Maokai's new ult is too slow to work as an engage ult.

Good thing it won't

Maokai was originally a Warden tank, a subclass more focused on peeling.

He still is. Even more so with that saplings nerf to hell with no impact damage but improved when thrown in bushes. And yeah, that Ult.

So when he was announced in the vanguard update

The update was not about Vanguards. It was about Tanks in general, and look at the huge pass over itemization we got. Yeah, one of the big problems in the Tank class was the lack of diversity in Vanguards, but that was one of many problems. The same that the lack of AD itemization for Assassins was one problem, but the update was still about all Assassins, including AP like Fizz and LeBlanc.

I assumed though that they'd make him more aggressive to better match how people are playing him.

No.

I know it's as wide as the lane, but this is an ability you're expected to start a teamfight with on Maokai.

No.

This is his engage ultimate, yet it looks like it needs to be used as a follow up engage to be effective.

No and no. It's a peel and/or zone control ultimate, Maokai is still a Warden, and if you keep that in mind it makes perfect sense.

In fact, this R being so slow actually gives you more time to control a zone and do what you need. Want to take this tower despite their Anivia/Caitlyn guarding it? Throw your ult and watch them back away and get this free tower.

And in a pinch, if you really really need to engage because no one else can on your team, you can always dash-in first and throw your R in melee range. Not optimal, but it works. And if you'd wanted optimal engage, you shouldn't have picked Maokai. (But hey, sometimes you're first pick and the rest of your team still pick a stupid comp, I know it happens.)

Hupsis37 votes

This guy gets it.

It'll be interesting few weeks after the release. Will he be picked in jungle, top or support? His ult seems a nice anti-ganking tool.

Wheatloaf14 votes

It would be nice to see more people recognize abilities for doing something other than securing or denying champion kills.

SpecterVonBaren20 votes

It is a horrible peel ultimate though. I'd agree with what you're saying if it weren't for this.

Nature's Grasp RANGE: 2500 COST: 100 Mana COOLDOWN: 120 / 110 / 100

Active: Maokai summons a colossal wall of 5 brambles and thorns that slowly advances forwards, each stopping at the first champion that collide with.

Each barble deals magic damage and roots for 0.6 - 2.4 (based on distance traveled) seconds.

Magic Damage: 150 / 225 / 300 (+ 75% AP)

The root duration when the ult is landed at close range is abysmal, the fact that you only get any real value from the root if it lands on distant targets indicates that it isn't designed to be a peeling ult.

An Undead brat6 votes

It is a good peeling ult. Is it that you can just run away from it? I'd say it's good because it makes you run away from it.

SpecterVonBaren20 votes

But it.... doesn't. You'll want to run towards it since you'll be rooted for less time. And if someone is already on top of his team then it will barely slow them down.

CannabisOverlord5 votes

Run towards the root and the enemy team?

Tormentula22 votes

I think what he means is the root is so piss weak, you don't even notice the CC. The fact its also a root means the ADC wouldn't really care either.

In a teamfight, this ultimate does literally nothing besides animation lock mao. In an engage, the most it'll do is zone somebody, but even then it's only strong if it hits at max distance and chances are the team can't follow up from that far away.

Over all, this ultimate is really pathetic. And the fact its a root is icing on the cake since you'll still just auto or whatever whenever you get hit by it. The only way this ult would be relevant would be if you "sandwiched" a team with it by flanking from the jungle or something, and even then it doesn't exactly win the team fight or force an engage that something else could've 100x more reliably.

Say hello to our new failed champion update: Mordekaiser Skarner Vladimir Malzahar Leblanc: Welcome! Maokai item 3070

Project omen3 votes

Vladimir is fine, agree with the rest of the reworks.

CannabisOverlord1 votes

Square up with Mordekaiser Hommie!!

Project omen8 votes

Not to insult anyone here, but when I get an enemy Mordekaiser I consider it a won lane. Or at the very least a farm lane. And I'm proven right. I haven't lost to a post rework Mordekaiser ever. This guy needs some love.

Malicious Metal5 votes

You've faced pretty bad Mords then. He is a MONSTER when you put time into learning him.

He's a failure because he's gimped, riddled with bugs and still extremely binary.

Project omen5 votes

Is it worth though? Spending that much time into learning him? You could've just picked up way better champions for his lane(s), spend less time learning them and perform much better. And I'm not talking about being a Morde one trick, because you can one trick a lot of champs that seem weak and climb. I get that you like playing him and all, since I'm like that with Vladimir, but I don't think it's a good pick, at least for solo queue.

Malicious Metal3 votes

I love Morde, what else can I say.

Plus, I've been playing him since late season two, I will never change my main. And why should I bother playing what's strong if I don't enjoy these champions?

UnboundCreator7 votes

[{quoted}](name=Malicious Metal,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=jzcu4rPH,comment-id=0003000100000000000000000000000000000001,timestamp=2017-04-24T20:40:38.401+0000)

You've faced pretty bad Mords then. He is a MONSTER when you put time into learning him.

He's a failure because he's gimped, riddled with bugs and still extremely binary.

Monster - Failure, Gimped, and riddled with bugs. Pick one or the other not both.

TzQGRUST391 votes

Does Leblanc have problems? I don't play leblanc or follow league "commentary". She looks pretty fine to me when I see her in game, sometimes I even get spooked by her clone. Can someone explain to me the problems with her, genuinely curious.

Tormentula3 votes

Her rework was meant to give her burst window more reaction time to counterplay.

Instead what we got was an LB who did more damage, got wave clear, and has incredibly long chains that are super oppressive and harder to escape from. If you were around on the boards during the assassin update, you'd see "still can't escape her chains" memes all over.

Riot had to lower her numbers significantly. People thought LB would be dead for good because after the nerfs (which were badly needed), her playrate and winrate tanked extremely hard. However just recently, LB discovered a new build (gunblade lichbane) that brought her back from the dead and what we assumed would be the weakest state we'd see her, turned her into an equally frightening pick.

Basically what the update did was take an unbalancable champion who was in an "ok but not too scary" spot, and turned it into an unfixable and unbalancable champion who is even more broken than the previous one, with the intent of trying to make her less broken.

D3m37r147 votes

His new ult is so bad you could post this video in either Gameplay or M&G and you wouldn't be wrong either way.

Melledoneus6 votes

We've hit DEFCON 0. We never hit DEFCON 0.

AMYS GRAVE3 votes

don't worry, it will be a while before the problem gets around to us.

Leon Etoile10 votes

His new ult is basically a shit version of Nami. He already had a unique ult that defined him. Honestly, he didn't need to be touched at all.

tysup4 votes

yeah, maokai's ult is what made him maokai, the saplings are cool and stuff but nothing can beat an AoE ring that reduces dmg to your team

Elikain8 votes

Maokai is a Warden, right? Wardens aren't Vanguards. Vanguards are offensive tanks while Wardens are defensive tanks. Furthermore, you W or catch someone with a sapling and then you ult to disrupt not only them but their entire team. I don't know why you're treating Maokai's ult as a clone of Nami's "engage" ult because Maokai is a lockdown/peeler tank.

What Maokai isn't is a half-lane engage specialist.

Kelly K8 votes

It's speed should increase over time and distance increased.

Stars Shaper6 votes

Well that was really painful to watch xD

NodirjonSattarov6 votes

kog'maw with no boots can avoid that

Jabberwöcky6 votes

i feel it needs to have its damage tone down (dont kill me yet)

But add more "waves" to it.

Like wave one, best a fast one, wave two right behind it, but wave three behind that one but even slower for more damage.

boom, boom...... BOOM.

Spoofghoul5 votes

you know they should increase the distance it travels

because it's so damn slow it's laughable

you can recall out of it lol

Quepha5 votes

riot literally said it's not supposed to be an initiate, it's for flanking and zoning.

WhiperSnapers5 votes

Rakan : Hey Xayah, Maokai just ulted at us. Xayah : Oh ok, lets just recall then.

Penns4 votes

It gets kind of fast after travelling a bit tho and its huge. I think it can work against immobile teams. What would annoy me more if I played him is how a root-thing insta dies once it hits a champ, so a tank could just block it for his whole team, or maybe someone with qss/GP/a spellshield (you can prolly just activate Edge of Night once you see it cast lol).

Ralanr7 votes

Thankfully each root is separate so a tank can't body block the entire thing, you just need everyone to be behind them (which can lead to problems against other AoE abilities).

The travel speed increase doesn't seem that effective or even that noticeable imo.

The Magyk7 votes

it barely reaches a speed that maokai cant out run himself, so id like to see it be faster. if you can just walk away from it then its not a very good engage tool

Glory ln Death2 votes

Exactly! It's not really intended to primarily be an engage tool!

PhDs Nuts30 votes

{quoted}

It gets kind of fast after travelling a bit tho and its huge. I think it can work against immobile teams.

Do those even exist anymore?

Keevalroy13 votes

{quoted}

Do those even exist anymore?

Not since #LCSBIGPLAYS became Riot's number one priority for design and balance.

Mira Arya Enthe4 votes

Actually LCS employs a lot of immobile champions since they usually have reliability and sheer stat advantages. For example Ashe, Jhin and Varus are considered better than Vayne.

Keevalroy1 votes

Yes, and a great deal of that had to do with broken itemization.

Mira Arya Enthe3 votes

LCS has always prefered(in general) reliable, safe and high utility over risky or flashy. They are playing for keeps, no time to look cool. They only explicitly use something feast/famine or flashy if it is utterly Broken like Zed and Riven a few seasons back.

PokladnicaZla4 votes

I get why it's slow,but does it have to be so freaking slow? And what's up with the range?

Knoyle4 votes

You guys remember that episode of invader Zim where the explosion was so slow people reverted to walking from it and the only person who was having to move relatively fast was that old guy with a walker?

http://www.win-vector.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2012/06/InvaderZimWalkForYourLives.jpg

Where's my Irken Maokai skin riot?

Catastrop4 votes

Lmao it was designed with the intention of engaging? I thought it was for fire and forget lockdown in teamfights.

hallfro4 votes

I don't think it was designed as an engage ult (though if it was, I agree that they failed). I think it was designed as a teamfight-disruption zoning ultimate. Imagine in pro play, one team is seiging a tower and another is attempting to defend it, the new Maokai ult (even if it doesn't hit anyone) will be super useful for either side, because it can zone the enemy away from the tower.

SpecterVonBaren6 votes

Then why is the root duration only .06 of a second at point blank and 2.4 seconds at max range? If it's designed to be a disruption or zoning tool then why make it bad at peeling or preventing people from running at it since you get rooted for less time if you just charge at it?

Aptest2 votes

I think I have seen enough "we don't really want to fight you, just let us have the tower for free" ults from Jhin and Rumble and Poppy in pro play. Not sure another one is a good addition.

Big Lincoln3 votes

make it faster and make it global xd

Mira Arya Enthe3 votes

Watch it end up broken in proplay.

The Ecdysiast5 votes

Professional play is an entirely different game, man. They can use things like Shen and Rek'sai.

CannabisOverlord1 votes

Why showcase casting it from so far away? excuse my ignorance, but is there a certain distance you have to maintain before you can cast it?

Glory ln Death4 votes

So he could make a dramatic point about how an ability not intended as a strong engage ability... can't be used as a strong engage ability.

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