@Riot, can we make Fervor of Battle also grant AP on stack to make it viable on even more champs?

Malicious Metal·Nov 3, 2016·67 votes·3,014 views

With recent changes to masteries making Fervor provide a maximum of 60 AD instead of on hit damage the mastery was made more viable on spell-casting types of AD champions seeing that the AD synergies with their abilities.

Now, it was a nerf to stuff like Teemo and Kayle though and it's still an entirely AD focused mastery.

But does it have to remain that way?

Wouldn't it be kinda cool if the mastery also provided a chunk of AP per stack, making it a viable choice on hybrid champions, certain AP champions and more?

It wouldn't really impact pure AD champions but actually be a viable choice for other champions that don't really need AD as much but thrive in extended fights and sling both spells and AA's in their combat pattern.

And no, this isn't a Morde thread in disguise, even if the guy would really benefit from the dual scaling.

96 Comments

Sahn UzalNov 3, 201639 votes

Jax Heavy Breathing.

Burnt Iron KingNov 3, 20162 votes

I'm not very informed about how well Jax could use it but doesn't the Fervor change hurt him anyways? Taking his scaling in account it would probably still be worse than the current Fervor.

ZaghyrNov 4, 20161 votes

Early game it is better than current fervor, but i falls off after, however it can be adapted well with certain item builds.

Malicious MetalNov 3, 201626 votes

Akali Diana Evelynn Kayle Kennen KogMaw Malzahar Mordekaiser Teemo Even heavier breathing

All these champs might actually consider taking Fervor, and that's what the masteries should be for; Being able to adapt one's play style and have an option not ONE cookie cutter mastery.

RalanrNov 3, 20166 votes

Oh god, Teemo with an AP fervor would be annoying as fuck for top laners.

Ben SharpioNov 3, 201624 votes

this is actually one of malicious metal's worst ideas

Malicious MetalNov 3, 20169 votes

He'll have to engage inextended trades to actually stack it. Won't be worse than fervor, especially now that they're introducing more damage masteries that favor ranged.

RalanrNov 3, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=Malicious Metal,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=jtmWhfEY,comment-id=0000000100000001,timestamp=2016-11-03T12:52:25.616+0000)

He'll have to engage inextended trades to actually stack it. Won't be worse than fervor, especially now that they're introducing more damage masteries that favor ranged.

Malicious, I don't know about higher elo Teemos, but in low elo they have no problem doing extended trades because of how they can attack through minions and kite with their movement speed increase.

The harass would be worse.

Malicious MetalNov 3, 201611 votes

112 on hit damage opposed to 60 Ad and maybe around 60 AP-> 40% ratio on E->24 extra damage ->84 damage IF maxed out as opposed to 112

Shadow HazardNov 3, 20162 votes

This is what people aren't thinking about, mathematically it is still a notable nerf to on hit teemo's premitigation damage. Kayle may actually end up with a buff (don't feel like mathing out all the potential hybrid champs), but in the long run, these champs should all be losing out on damage for the pure on hit route but their abilities will be in a better compensated spot. Worse case after they can can ratios nerfed if it is really OP.

nice tableNov 3, 20163 votes

id rather not buff the toxic laners laning phases though, id rather have it have a AP alternative than have fervor be both ap and ad.

EnglaisNov 4, 20161 votes

SCREW YOU THUNDERLORDS.

Pierce The VealNov 3, 20162 votes

[{quoted}](name=Tidal Tyrant,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=jtmWhfEY,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2016-11-03T12:01:20.728+0000)

Heavy Breathing.

Made me laugh hard.

OyddAWqJ5rNov 3, 20165 votes

Nah, then it'd be balanced for hybrids and weak for everyone else. Just how the game works man.

Malicious MetalNov 3, 20163 votes

60 AD can be used on ADC's since it scales with crit and LS. It would be an all around option, with hybrids/on hit champions probably benefitting from it the most.

APrinnyDoodNov 3, 201610 votes

It's not going to be 60 AD if we add AP to it. We'll need to nerf that, or it will be stupidly overpowered on any champions who use both stats well. Or, you know, we could just nerf the hybrid champs into the ground. That is what has always happened with anything hybrid, and if we don't do anything to to address it, then there's no reason to think this would go any differently.

Voluug13Nov 3, 20166 votes

It could always be an ''AD or AP'', which ever one is highest as bonus.

Supreme Senpai69Nov 3, 20162 votes

Should be bonus then and not base if we did that

EndlessSorcererNov 3, 20165 votes

Hybrid items and masteries have traditionally been balance issues.

If it is strong enough for someone who scales primarily with AD or AP, it tends to be monstrous for those who scale with both. After that happens, it will be nerfed to the point it is only good on hybrid champions and weak on pretty much everyone else.

I don't disagree with the intent, but the implementation could use some work.

Golden Tager XNov 3, 20165 votes

Jax This guy right here is why you can not do that.

Papa SlothyNov 3, 20165 votes

And no, this isn't a Morde thread in disguise that's exactly what a morde thread WOULD say

ShadòwNov 3, 20164 votes

i think it should remain AD only.

I don't think it should be an Hybrid Mastery, because it would be more effective on Hybrid Champions then and balanced around them and as a result it would be no longer viable on AD Champs.

Sightless66Nov 3, 20164 votes

It wouldn't really impact pure AD champions

When you say this, you're making the assumption that we won't end up having to nerf the AD in order to balance the mastery, and that's a huge assumption. Anytime we have hybrid itemization in the game, it has always ended up balanced around who can use the stats most efficiently. We've never had a period where single-stat champions have effectively used a hybrid option, unless that hybrid option was stupidly overpowered. Either we'll have to nerf all the hybrid champions around this mastery, or we'll have to make it balanced for the hybrid champions and worthless for other champions.

It would take an ungodly amount of work to have it grant 60 AD and an equivalent amount of AP to hybrid champions and still be balanced, and there's a very good chance it would end up in failure no matter how much time we put into trying to balance. It's not happening.

EndlessSorcererNov 3, 20162 votes

We've never had a period where single-stat champions have effectively used a hybrid option, unless that hybrid option was stupidly overpowered.

MasterYi + Sated Devourer + Guinsoo's Rageblade + Hextech Gunblade.

Some have never recovered from the trauma.

GULAG 4 UNov 3, 20161 votes

Except guinsoo's on hit damage is no longer boosted by stats so it's worth shit.

EndlessSorcererNov 3, 20163 votes

Considering I mentioned Sated Devourer, I figured it was pretty obvious I was referring to before Guinsoo's Rageblade was changed (since that occurred in the same patch as Devourer's removal).

The current state of the item doesn't really have anything to do with it since we are referring to previous iterations.

SlythionNov 3, 20163 votes

I just want to point out that FalconPawwwwnch recommended this same exact idea like...yesterday. And he got downvoted for this same exact suggestion.

I love you Malicious, but you've got quite the following going on here on the boards lol http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/MJdE0xiA-fervor-should-give-ad-and-ap-per-stack

Personally, I oppose this idea. It'd break to many champions and many of which would be hell to balance while others would be forced to be gutted until they found a real way to make them safe to introduce into the game again. It's just not something we need in a game and it's certainly not worth the hell it'd cause, because once again, balancing it would be crazy hard.

YumaS2AstralNov 3, 20161 votes

Why one is downvoted and the other is upvoted?

SlythionNov 3, 20166 votes

Because unfortunately, due to Malicious having a great reputation on this site he can post just about anything and be upvoted for it. FalconPawwwnch doesn't have that reputation so he gets a bit more negative feedback.

It's the nature of the boards. It's stupid and clearly shows it's mob mentality, but you can't do anything about it :/

Burnt Iron KingNov 3, 20164 votes

Or maybe it's about how he presents it.

There's a german saying "das Auge isst mit", which means that the way something is presented/looks like can make something more appealing.

EndlessSorcererNov 3, 20163 votes

Honestly, I found many topics on the board when I agree with the general thought/intention but downvote it due to how the argument is presented.

Malicious MetalNov 3, 20165 votes

That kinda hurts.

SlythionNov 3, 20162 votes

it's not ur fault bby, you post great stuff (even on things I disagree with). This happens with anyone who's achieved some sort of "celebrity" status

MunchCrunchLunchNov 3, 20163 votes

Would be broken on hybrids

WiegrafOfValorNov 3, 20163 votes

60 AD + 60 AP on Mordekaiser Q - YEAH!!

NO bias here, malicious..

OurLestradeNov 3, 20162 votes

Interesting, but the issue would be just how many raw stats that'd probably give you. Could be a real balance issue.

TrekkormNov 3, 20162 votes

Please, god no. Sure, i can hear Malicious Metal practically drooling all over his keyboard all the way from here, but such a change would make 90% of the playerbase tremble in ~~fear~~ fury at the thought of champions like Jax and Akali.

Emerald FangNov 3, 20162 votes

I disagree with this because Fervor is meant for AD champs specifically; making it give AP would make it viable in every situation and uses of the other 8 masteries would decline. It's an AD-specific mastery; keep it that way. It would also make hybrids like Teemo and Kayle too powerful.

Wolfram OxfordNov 3, 20162 votes

This is a bad request in my opinion. The on-hit champions either find more damage in TLD anyways or can still use the AD on their attacks, but right now the good thing is that champions who were going bruiser with Fervor won't be doing as much in just auto attacks, meaning there will potentially be more outplay potential for them. But besides giving reasons as to why it would be a bad change, I think they should give some compensation to champions hit hard by this, like Kalista, Teemo, Kayle.

ZerenzaNov 3, 20162 votes

I do think we need another Viable Choice for AP champions but i don't think it should be from Fervor, i think one of the masteries in the cunning tree could just be swapped out for something that gives AP Auto Attack champs something to work with.

Mainly because Kayle, Teemo, Jax and Akali all benifit from having both AD and AP and making a mastery that gives 60 of both would be reaaaaally busted, i mean that's an extra 120 stats in extended trades for them. If we did add this the ammount given would have to be maybe 20-40 instead so it doesn't go out of control again. Mordekaiser also benefits from AD and AP so he would really abuse have 60 bonus AD and AP to the point of probably being broken.

Edit: I'd really like Storm Raider's Surge to be replaced for something that helps AP's like Teemo, kayle, Diana, akali and jax because it would really help them not be forced into thunderlords since it's the only viable AP choice. I mean Death Fire Touch scales with 60% AD but only 20% AP and it's really the only other one that any of those champs can take.

XeruonNov 3, 20162 votes

Not everything catering to AD needs an exact AP counterpart. This game isn't one that's symmetrically balanced.

NechroniaNov 4, 20162 votes

To be fair, every ap keystone also works on ad, but not the other way around.

The DeckownerNov 3, 20162 votes

Kayle Azir Cassiopea will be broken if this was to come true, please stop being so biased.

HazyCloud7Nov 3, 20162 votes

Sounds like something azir would love.

LeonerdoNov 3, 20162 votes

For every champion you make it viable on by giving it +AP, like Kennen, Kayle, Teemo, Akali, and Diana, you also make it 100% required on another champion, like Jax, Irelia, Xin Zhao, Kayle, Teemo, and Kog'Maw.

In other words, this change wouldn't add more viable choices overall, just shift a few decisions around. Sustained-damage, AP champs already have DFT anyways.

LatetotheRaceNov 4, 20161 votes

Ya know Malicious I tend to agree with you, but this time I gotta call you out. The short answer is NO, the long answer is hell no. (Cliche, but yeah.)

President Swa1nNov 4, 20161 votes

Would you say the AD and AP stacks the mastery grants should scale with the champion's bonus AD/AP? This could potentially solve many issues people allegedly have with it and the one you mention here.

DengedenNov 4, 20161 votes

Don't all 3 of them have AD scalings? I know that Kayle does ~~the only relevant one of the bunch, I mean, what~~

EmollientNut0Nov 4, 20161 votes

This is a change I'd actually love to see. However, I'm sure like almost everything else it would trace back to one of my favorite champions that seems to be the biggest balancing nightmare for this game, Ezreal .