What Riot is suddenly doing right with champion designs

math crab··47 votes·2,534 views

I'm going to illustrate my point with supports, because nobody listens to support mains anyway because they demonstrate my point well. If my point is wrong, they'll demonstrate how I'm wrong well. Sona and Nami are supports. Nami has better CC, Sona has better poke. Both have unique kits, both scale differently as the game goes on. They're not identical. But if Nami is weak- and I would argue she is right now- people will pick Sona instead. If Sona is weak, people will probably pick Nami instead. There is usually room in the meta for that type of support, but the actual support people pick will change depending on which one is statistically better. Now take Leona. The meta will want different things from a support, depending on what team comps are strong right now. Some seasons, people will pick Leona. Some seasons, people will pick Sona and Nami. These two sets of champions are competing. Now- plot twist- take Bard. Bard is different. Why is Bard different? Why is he less replaceable? It's not because he's a support with a unique kit, although he is. It's because he's a roaming support. Notice that map terminology. Bard is unique not because his kit does different things from everyone else in his role, he is different because of his position on the map. This is a common trend all of the sudden, and it's really exciting. For example: RekSai is a jungle champion. She is strongest in tight areas with lots of breaks in vision and many short walls. In all other regards, Rek'Sai is basically just another melee carry, or another bruiser, depending on how AD itemization works at the time. But because she has a role on the map, she's unique. Azir is a siege champion. He is strongest in the spaces between turrets, because he can control every single exit as long as he can put up a turret. He's not just another mage, because he takes control of a specific spot on the map. You can't replace Azir, because as many mages as there are, there aren't any that are specifically designed for the same spaces. Kalista is the same way. Kalista owns the bottom lane. Not the laning phase, or the meta in the lane- I mean the lane, the position on the map. We're very used to thinking of "lanes" as being their own metas, rather than actual spots, aren't we? Sentinels scout out all of her blind spots, she has significantly more mobility options around creep waves, and she's designed to stick to her support.

If every champion is like this, we can get an entirely different game. Every champ is less replaceable, because they have so much more room to specialize. People are free to make their own meta. The almost chess-like feel of LCS matches is amplified to a ridiculous degree as players maximize the positional advantages of their teams.

Please, please don't make this a temporary trend. We need more Bards.

50 Comments

GloriousKaiser12 votes

But with 120+ champions, niches will run dry. Hopefully, Riot would have expanded the game by then.

A Tall Joke5 votes

DotA kind of begs to differ on that particular point. Say what you will about the game but character diversity and niches are two of its strong points.

AbodyHUN6663 votes

Just let's hope League won't have cance...ehm techies.

terkmc8 votes

Teemo

GloriousKaiser5 votes

But LoL =/= Dota.

DoTA is the everyone or nobody philosophy of balance. The balance is in the absurdity of the individual strengths each hero has. LoL isn't performing the same. They're forced to whack-a-mole nerf in order to sustain the integrity of the meta THEY WANT not necessarily what's healthy for the game. The niches aren't happening because all the champions are dated. In Riots quest to introduce #LCSBIGPLAYZZ mechanics to the game, they constantly forget about older champions who are eventually forced out of metas because their newer counterparts are essentially the mobility version.

junglerboy161 votes

And that is why eventually, Riot should redirect their efforts into creating cool new MAP experiences. As champion niches for summoners rift run dry, there are still many cool things that champions can do in places like dominion of TT that don't show up on SR. Bard for instance (because he's new and on my mind) will have a much different role if playing dominion than any other champion, but also than his style on SR, because he will be even less bound to a single lane.

Duke Anax1 votes

Actually, they are just starting to find niches, there will be quite a bit more to explore and there are some older concept that can be shoved in different niches.

Even though OP compared Leona with Nami and Sona, they are still two decidedly different choices for bottom lane.

And some of the of the recent reworks are really trying to move them appart more. The new Soraka for example is a unique design that can no longer be compared with the other healers.

Pryotra6 votes

Azir is a siege champion. He is strongest in the spaces between turrets, because he can control every single exit as long as he can put up a turret. He's not just another mage, because he takes control of a specific spot on the map. You can't replace Azir, because as many mages as there are, there aren't any that are specifically designed for the same spaces.

Heimerdinger Is a fairly new rework with this same strength. Azir is more mobile, while Heimer is better at prolonged Seiges of a single tower/objective. Generally, whatever the donger sits in front of, he's going to get unless you take steps to remove him. and that becomes... interesting.

Other than that, yeah, you are pretty much spot on.

DorkunedAuras2 votes

{quoted}

Heimerdinger Is a fairly new rework with this same strength. Azir is more mobile, while Heimer is better at prolonged Seiges of a single tower/objective. Generally, whatever the donger sits in front of, he's going to get unless you take steps to remove him. and that becomes... interesting.

Other than that, yeah, you are pretty much spot on.

I can say it's extremely uncommon that a Heimerdinger who's at a reasonable item level for a given stage in the game (including zhonya's) (to clarify, not behind), to be dislodged from his camp by fewer than 3 people without a single loss. He kinda becomes an objective in and of himself.

That's his unique thing, different from Azir, who has stronger control over a single area with his own turret, but doesn't really go full raid boss in that his turret goes away, and he's left with zoning minions, but nothing else.

Pryotra1 votes

I'd say that Azir tends to be the APC that is designed to take towers and fight like an ADC. Which is a very cool and unique thing. Even in teamfights, he operates alot like and ADC with incredible range and scaling.

I 100% agree with you on the Donger. He becomes the Objectives Raid Boss (I feel that all raid bosses have something they excel at over others, and for heimer that is objectives.)

terkmc1 votes

I agree, Heimer is for sieging/objective control. Azir, on the other hand, is the zone control mage. He creates terrain, create zone where whatever enter that zone is going to loose 50% of the health, the ability to move those zones and the ability to create a turret to lock down another zone

Pryotra2 votes

I would say that Heimer is the defensive counterpart of Azir. Heimer can zone control just as well for longer, while Azir can quickly change his zone of control and move with it. They also operate very differently from each other, while Azir is more of a APC marksman, whereas Heimer is more of a club owner, managing his bouncers and sending out invites.

Both are zone control mages. One is just an aggressive zone control mage while the other is a defensive zone control mage.

junglerboy162 votes

Heimer is distinctly the more defensive of the 2, with a very large focus on defensive positioning and kiting around his turrets, where Azir is focused on manipulating his soldiers to attack enemies very aggressively.

Pryotra1 votes

Very true, and as a result heimer doesn't move as fast and is more methodical while Azir can't maintain his control over a certain area as long.

BluePolarizer4 votes

interesting way of thinking about it. But if you apply this logic to other champs, it becomes wierd. For example, Yi's kit suggests a top laner: melee that needs farm, incredible sustained damage and ways to deal it, multiple gapclosers and high mobility in a lane, but low mobility in the jungle. Yet he's played almost exclusively as a jungler and occasionally mid, rarely top. Pantheon's kit suggests an AD mid with a roaming ult, strong burst and high AD scaling, but he's usually a jungler or top laner. Etc.

I thought a cool thing about champs from before is that they can go multiple places on the map.

math crab1 votes

I think this is because Pantheon matches up well against the people who go top lane. As the current meta stands, champions are designed in opposition to other champions- if that attitude changes, Pantheon might see play in mid lane, which fits his design style better.

Kingsgrave1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Dark Valkyrie,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=jsqHByOd,comment-id=00010000,timestamp=2015-02-25T04:17:00.289+0000)

I think this is because Pantheon matches up well against the people who go top lane. As the current meta stands, champions are designed in opposition to other champions- if that attitude changes, Pantheon might see play in mid lane, which fits his design style better.

Honestly Pantheon fits well with Top and Jungle better than he fits with Mid.

Pantheon really only builds 2 maybe 3 damage items and then builds Tanky like every other Top and Jungler. He also is rather short range which is mainly why he can't go mid lane very often but can go Top rather well.

Reynard the ƒox7 votes

{quoted}

I thought a cool thing about champs from before is that they can go multiple places on the map.

Riot doesn't appear to think it's cool

Narasimha3 votes

Riot only really has an issue when supports try to take over other lanes. And to their credit, thats entirely fair. When you have a champion designed around assisting another start to dominate a lane by themselves, that spells trouble.

Raja Chachki3 votes

Haha sucks for Rito because I can easily see Bard as a utility mage :) but then they'll nerf him to the ground and he will be forgotten :(

Narasimha4 votes

Eh, it would depend on the numbers, but I HIGHLY doubt he'd be able to do much in any solo lane. If thats what you're implying anyway. He lacks the waveclear for mid, and top lane bruisers seem like they'd eat him up, unless he had very tanky base stats.

junglerboy161 votes

his meep passive scales pretty well off of AP (30%) and his roam and ganks look pretty awesome. His shrine has a good AP ratio, and not having to sit around for an ADC all game means he can roam about as much as he wants. I think solo lane Bard will actually be a strong niche pick when you are up against a champ without wave clear or strong pushing power, and his chimes allow his damage to scale pretty hard into the game with his meeps (which eventually turn into AoE attacks that apply slows to multiple enemies with a base damage bonus upwards of 200 depending on the number of chimes gathered).

Duke Anax1 votes

Bard is a bit different though, he is a roaming support, that means he is meant to be somewhat effective on his own, when passing throguh the jungle, probably even as main jungler.

He won't be good in lane though, because he actually scales from roaming. That means he is only semi usefull in a botlane duo as well.

qetzel1 votes

He probably won't be a utility mage. He has two skills with no scaling, one .5 AP and .15 AP on a few AA at a time. He just doesn't have the ratios to do that job.

DatPikachuTho1 votes

Honestly, I don't see him being a good laner just because he was intended to NOT stay in a lane.

Linna Excel4 votes

I half agree with you half disagree with you.

I totally get how uniqueness to a champ is important. The problem is the more specific a champ is, the better he is at that one thing, but the worse he is when he can't do his one thing. You know because your team comp is, well it's not a team comp, and then you get counter picked.

This is what I hated about the soraka rework. Before she was a supporty, utility battlemage with a healing theme. Now she's not very supporty, or utility-y, or battlemagy and I hate healing with her because it means I'm running to base and back. Now I'm minus a main support and a backup midlaner (I was playing her mid before she was broken OP by riot). She was the only true support who could push out a lane if needed. Now she isn't. So I think riot doesn't really give a crap about irreplaceablity because where is my lane pushing healer? Where is my champ that can restore mana? You can't pick that anymore because morello had her deleted.

Your argument fails hard because riot deleted a champ who had a role and a mechanic that couldn't be replaced with existing champs and substituted it with an emo who cuts herself and has mana costs that are too high for a pure support like she was designed to be.

This is why I think we don't just need one trick champs, or irreplaceable champs as you put it. Let's say I need leona for this comp but leona is banned or picked by the other team. Which other hard engage assassiny support can I pick? Poppy isn't going to be an assassin anymore. Vi can't support. Sej isn't a great support. Katarina and Akali can assassinate people, but aren't supports.

So I think we need champs that can fill a clearly defined role and need more than just one of them. We need comp champs like nami or sona. Sometimes I need a part I can plug in and not that one champ who does only one thing. #patriotsway wins superbowls.

Narasimha1 votes

So I think riot doesn't really give a crap about irreplaceablity because where is my lane pushing healer?

Just to jump in, thats EXACTLY why they nerfed her. A support shouldn't be about lane pushing at all. The second they get that power, they become able to go to solo lanes. And when they go to solo lanes, thats when the issues begin.

Linna Excel3 votes

Why can't a support push lanes? If my team comp is all single target champs and I'm support, I might want to be the person on our team who can push/clear for late game. Wave clear is important and every lane needs one champ who can do that in case the other players on your team aren't thinking about that. Soraka was that champ for supports. Without her, you need to take an AP mid (which people complained about) bot if you need to fill that role for your team.

There's also the fact that she was the only mana battery in the game.

Narasimha4 votes

I mean, not to sound rude or anything, but I JUST told you. If a support pushes lanes, then that means they are, at the least, capable of going to a solo lane. And when they go into a solo lane, then balance goes out the window. When a champion who's entire focus is about assisting another player starts using that power to assist themselves, then it generally becomes oppressive.

And honestly, I'm kind of neutral on the mana donating thing. On one hand, it was definitely unique, and definitely interesting. On the other hand, it had the same fundamental issues as a mana regn aura: It gave champions who otherwise had to spend mana carefully access to a source of free mana. It basically took something that was supposed to limit their power and removed it.

Linna Excel2 votes

So what's the difference between a mid who can support and a support who can go mid? They can balance mids who go bot. So why didn't they just balance soraka likewise? It would have kept her kit intact.

Narasimha4 votes

A mid is designed with waveclear and anti-opponent balances already in mind. They've been accounted for. A support is NOT designed with that in mind. A support is designed to help their buddy, not be a stand-alone. Hence why they are supports. Some mids can go bot because they 'support' without being supports. Their actions tend to hurt the enemy rather than assist their allies (Annie, Fiddle, Vel, etc). If a mid tries to support, its easy to tune them, often by hitting their bases. On the other hand, champions designed as supports have tools to help their allies more often than hurt the enemies. Heals, shields, guards, and such. In these cases, its harder to tune them because they don't rely on their damage, they rely on the sheer utility they bring. And solo laners are not able to handle those levels of utility on an even playing field.

Linna Excel1 votes

Soraka though had a kit forever that while slightly geared towards support, was always a niche mid pick. She had both a little bit of damage, a way of stopping a fight before it started (her old E) that worked in support or mid, and she had utility.

She was that borderline between a utility mid and a true support, most people just didn't realize that. I'd argue she didn't need to be nerfed in her mid lane, she needed to be accepted as one of those niche mid picks who could do well in bot.

Riot killed her instead of doing what they should have: made her a utility mid first with a big healing ult and then do morello's pet emo healer project as a new champ. That would have kept her kit intact without deleting her.

You know how annie and zyra turned into supports so riot nerfed them a little in that role? Well they could have easily accepted Soraka wasn't always a support and nerfed the base heal/armor on her W a little. But no, instead of keeping soraka intact or giving her mid players a new utility mid that was strongly based off of battlemage soraka they just deleted her out of hate for a new meta pick instead of trying to make the new meta balanced.

Hate is wrong and so is deleting champs, even under the lie of a rework. Deleting champs should never happen.

AbodyHUN6663 votes

But Riot didn't only rework Soraka for her mid lane but for her boring supporting too. It turned bot lane into a never ending farm fest where the winner was decided by which adc farmed better, but later in teamfights she was useless as she couldn't heal fast enough. She is a lot more healthy now.

RetroRage963 votes

Riot I love you for this. Please continue to make champions unique and specialized. And don't turn a unique champion into a boring one, like Skarner. I don't mean to poop your party, but in S2 and S3, he was such a fun, special, interesting jungler, because of his close range slow and sticking power. Now he's just another melee jungler, with a really cool ult. But really? Make his slow a long range skillshot? Totally contradictory to his original composition and role. I know I'm just blowing steam, but please don't do that again.

Still love you Riot. :)

aperson12 votes

You cant seriously tell me that the shitty heal skillshot that you only leveled at 13 since it actually reduced your survivability compared to leveling your shield is better than his current E?

AbodyHUN6661 votes

Lol so is this why I sucked on old skarner? xD

Sightless661 votes

Not better, but about as interesting. The new slow is so boring. Strong contender for most dull ability on a champion, and that's with stupidly high numbers. The permaslow was much more engaging. The speed ramp on the W is frustrating more often than not as well. It's pretty much the the most boring rework I can think of. I mean, he's got one of the lowest pickrates despite actually being a decently strong champion. That's a pretty big mark of failure as far as I'm concerned.

DHKany3 votes

It's fine to have niches and it's fine to be strong with them.

Now if they could drop the almost 100% EXPECTED archetypes of mobility and the now less frequent %HP damage on EVERY champ, that would be actual diversity.

SmokingPuffin2 votes

Really good take. Riot is indeed hitting it out of the park with recent champion designs. They're pushing uniqueness and showing willingness to break their own rules in strategic ways.

Wullf2 votes

Wow. Thats actually high quality post.

Dr Birdie2 votes

Here take these upvotes. I made them just for you.

Reynard the ƒox1 votes

I'm cool with OP champs, as long literally every champ is OP.

This appears to be what Riot is moving toward with their designs.

Ramix The Red1 votes

New designs, anyway.

Raptamei1 votes

I don't believe it. What will instead happen is Bard will be pick/ban/lose because he has a unique kit and most other supports don't. He will then either get nerfed into unviability or join Thresh in the champs-that-do-everything club. A few more releases later and most other supports will be useless.

Squeaky Dreemurr1 votes

Well said.

Centuros1 votes

If they make more roaming supports well, though, it will be the Sona/Nami problem all over again.

Civil Dawn1 votes

Love that this post exists.

KING OF MASKS1 votes

That's the first good thing I've heard anyone say about Kalista since her release. Interesting to think about.

killd0zer1 votes

I'd actually disagree with Rek'Sai.

She's surprisingly cookie cutter despite her tunnel things. She isn't like TF, who's playstyle is warped drastically around global presence. She feels like any other melee bruiser, with more mobility, and less damage after her nerfs.

TheI3igDaddy1 votes

Which is why I further argue that Season 5 needs to be the Season of Reworks.

In Riot's baby days, they thought up some pretty cool champion concepts, but their kits are outclassed now by other champs. They need to go back and change these champs so they make a difference in modern times.

My biggest example is Sion, Riot went and transformed him into the undead, angry juggernaut that he was SUPPOSED to be from the start. They need to do this with more champions.

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