"the unseen blade is the deadliest"

KONO RUBICK DA··74 votes·4,805 views

is zed acknowledging talon's superiority?

95 Comments

Francisco Pires10 votes

Talon wrecks zed 1vs1, and its a better assassin (not better overall, but better at doing what assassins should do, burst the carry, that is)

500000000000000015 votes

and get out safely. Talon isn't particularly good at escaping after assassination.

Francisco Pires3 votes

{quoted}

and get out safely. Talon isn't particularly good at escaping after assassination.

Usually E Q Hydra are enough to kill an adc late game, if talon uses his ult it will probably kill the adc without needing to be reactivated.

NineTailedMystic3 votes

Which is how it should be imo.

gaby1best3 votes

Wut? Assasin means

  • Kills squishies very fast
  • Limited by cooldowns
  • Has mainly single target damage
  • Has an escape ability
  • Can kill a squishy in a split of a second and get away as fast.
junglerboy164 votes

No, that is how ZED works. Assassins aren't supposed to be safe, because a safe assassin is inherently toxic to the game, unless that safety is very conditional (such as you can escape if you score the kill or something like that).

gaby1best3 votes

Assassins are able to eliminate an enemy Champion in an instant by pulling off a powerful combination of attacks and abilities.

High movement speed Abilities that allow them to reposition and/or maneuver quickly High burst damage (Attack Damage or Ability Power)

Yeah, it's not stated that they can get out after they all-in someone, but all assasins have an ability to help them get away out of risky situations. If they keep that ability until after they kill they target(if possible) they can easily get away. An exception would be Nocturne and maybe Rengar.

VasilisGreen2 votes

rengar doesn't have to get out, lol... He just kills the rest of the team as well!

junglerboy164 votes

Getting out safely was never supposed to be the job of the assassin. Assassins are supposed to either kill the enemy carry or enemy assassin, and if they did that, their job was done, and getting out was only a secondary concern. "Safe" assassins are the definition of toxicity (because that implies they have near instagib levels of burst and are also very hard to kill, creating a very anti-fun gameplay experience) and aren't something that should be used to rate their quality. Assassins are supposed to go for broke every time, and their escape is supposed to be dependent on how well their team can help get them out or whether they caught someone out alone.

GodSupport Katie2 votes

Yes it is, what are you smoking? The issue of pre rework rengar was that if he built full damage he just died instantly after killing his target. An assassin is supposed to get in and get out before the enemy knows what hit them. I mean are assassins supposed to trade kills just to kill the ADC every time?

NineTailedMystic2 votes

Well that would be favorable for the team who has the assassin. Would you trade a kill for the most important role for someone whose teamfight is usually shit?

GodSupport Katie1 votes

If it leads straight to a victory then yeah but if a lvl 6 zed dies while killing the enemy lucian he just gave lucian gold to complete whatever item he was aiming at building. Trading kills is never favorable unless its under the circumstance i said. It's not like a team is completely done for once the ADC is dead anyways there are a whole bunch of factors to consider.

Spizzle90002 votes

[{quoted}](name=Francisco Pires,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=jmts1EY4,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2015-08-24T21:20:42.108+0000)

Talon wrecks zed 1vs1, and its a better assassin (not better overall, but better at doing what assassins should do, burst the carry, that is)

Yeah. He outbursts Zed so hard. He can't escape quite as well, but in a fight of evenly fed and evenly skilled players, Talon will probably win.

YumaS2Astral2 votes

{quoted}

Yeah. He outbursts Zed so hard. He can't escape quite as well, but in a fight of evenly fed and evenly skilled players, Talon will probably win.

Zed wins against Talon during the early game though.

Spizzle90002 votes

{quoted}

Zed wins against Talon during the early game though.

True.

I Miss Cannon3 votes

zed wins against every champion with mana early game

Gorgannan1 votes

Uh, equally fed, I'd put more in the Zed killing an ADC better.

On top of the fact that he's useful after killing someone.

Tannhäuser Gate2 votes

Lategame talon can actually kill people unlike Zed who will get QSSd or ZHd.

Also talon can kill all the squishies in one combo in lategame

VasilisGreen2 votes

Zed can also kill squishes in one combo late game too. You will do 2.7k damage in 0.3 sec, i will do 2k damage in 0.4 seconds. both cases they are dead. Your point? Zed can still escape and leave a shadow behind to hit the rest of the team with it.

Tannhäuser Gate1 votes

tell me where the 2k dmage comes from with w q e aa which is generous for how little time you give.

VasilisGreen1 votes

Well, that's easy. Assuming such high burst damage, we are on a full build, and full build zed has 550 ad with a item 2140 . That make for 437 bonus AD. Now, let's see. In a ful combo, you go in with ult. We will count everything. 3 Qs do 175% the damage of a single Q. E does 180+0.8*437. just from the spells, you get (235+437)*1.75+180+350=1706 and 1 AA which will have the passive on if it's a squishy target with let's say 2k hp @lvl18 you have 550+200. all of that is 1706+550+200=2456. It's actualy more than 2k. and i didn't even calculate a crit, the masteries bonus damages and the blade's passive and active. And if you do it with proper sequence, you can get it instantly. It is harder to do because it's all skillshots but it is possible. And half of that will also be applied on the deathmark pop in the extreme chase that they survive the initial burst. so in total you have 2456+50% damage for a total of 3684 damage.... in total, zed's damage is a lot higher but talon's initial burst is stronger and faster.

Tannhäuser Gate1 votes

thats over 3.75 seconds and assuming no qss or item 3157 on the target and single target. Using a ad of 407 on talon, i calculated a burst of ~3383 of which over two-thirds is aoe and almost all is dealt in under a second

Stiv123410 votes

Talon fits the Assassin theme much more, visually, lore-wise, and gameplay-wise. He is similar to the guys like Altair from Assassins Creed & Co. While Zed... what do Shadows have to do with assassinations, exactly?

WolfChases26 votes

Zed is a Ninja and that's enough to fit the assassin theme.

In the other hand Shen is a ninja too but he's a tank. Why?

Ninjas were not just assassins lurking in shadows and killing Samurais without making a sound, but they ere also Emperors secret body guard that's why Zed is an assassin and Shen is a tank (peeler).

Shield Villain13 votes

Ninjas were actually just poor peasant farmers that acted mostly as spies and would occasionally ambush Samurai. Most of what people believe to be true was just propaganda they spread to frighten their foes.

There were special "elite" Ninja squads, but they were primarily just spies.

Anidan8 votes

Interestingly, Samurai hype was also lies. But unlike the ninja propaganda, the samurai stuff didn't really take off until after the Samurai were already gone.

Also, so, so much over-hyping of their katanas.

Japan is an interesting place.

Elphrihaim1 votes

{quoted}

Interestingly, Samurai hype was also lies. [...]

Also, so, so much over-hyping of their katanas.

How so, exactly?

All of the things I know about katanas also indicated them as pretty bad war weapons:

  • Able to hold an absurdly sharp edge, enough to cleanly cut flesh (but not bone)
    • Needs to be taken care of, delicately, and sharpened rather frequently to keep this sharpness.
  • Long. (Good reach)
    • Long. (Slow reaction)
  • Light. (Fast)
    • Light. (Unsuitable for damaging more than lightly-armored opponents)
  • Flexible, good for parrying and redirecting strikes, as well as not breaking easily.

Compare to, say, a damascus-steel scimitar:

  • Mid-length. (Decent reach, decent speed)
    • Mid-length. (Not long reach; not fast speed)
  • Usable from horseback and on-foot due to shape.
    • Optimally effective on horseback.
  • Mid-weight, weighted towards the top
    • Further decreases manuverability of the sword.
  • Holds its edge really well, hard to break except from the side.
    • n/a

Japan is an interesting place.

I think US/UK is more interesting in this respect, because in Japan they don't have as much hype over a katana specifically*. :V

*Rather, Japanese values encompass the idea of the warrior itself-- all weapons merely being an extension of the fighter, something the fighter has learned and can use with all weapons that they get, and is honed by extensive training and dedication. It requires deliberate intent to kill somebody, it requires calmness to fight.

Compare this to the very idea of a gun, which is a more US/UK weapon, and how it needs little instruction and little thought to kill a person. You shoot once and they die, and a trigger is easy to pull.

gaby1best5 votes

Uh... The guy said Japan is culturally interesting. And you bring up U.S. in that? A country that barely has any history?(sorry if it sounds offensive)

Phife3 votes

its true though... some guys landed on a boat, and tried to make a deal with the natives, they almost killed all of the foreigners so then the foreigners banded with a different tribe of natives to overtake the other natives, and when they killed the native indian leader, everyone began killing each other for a spot at the throne.

then everything else was just boring.

Shield Villain1 votes

It's interesting but we don't have a culture. Our culture is essentially robbed of other cultures, the oh so called "mixing pot" that is actually more of a chopped salad.

America is great, I love my country, but most of our history is us fucking up, getting back on our feet, fucking up again, fucking other people, or just flat out being hypocrites by not giving all people who live here the right that our founders wanted for themselves.

At least other countries have real culture that was developed within their small lands.

Elphrihaim1 votes

{quoted}

Uh... The guy said Japan is culturally interesting. And you bring up U.S. in that? A country that barely has any history?(sorry if it sounds offensive)

No, um... sigh.

This is where context being lost sucks.

With respect to Samurai; US/UK is more interesting, because the ideals of such are actually more strongly exaggerated there.

Shield Villain2 votes

A katana is pretty much a giant durable razor blade, it can cut through bone pretty easily if you swing it right.

WolfChases1 votes

They were ALSO, not "JUST" a peasant farmers ofc, in fact, they acted like ones or they had to do something apart from being killers to cover their dirty job? :)

Everyone knows that Samurais were well known emperors guard but in fact, during the era of medieval Japan, apart from Samurais as the royal guard, every single leader of a well known house had his own secret guard known as ninjas. Ninjas were a normal folk, with specific art of combat (Todays Ninjutsu is developed from old Ninja art), they were nothing but a lord's personal guard, mercenaries, payed to kill for their lord and protect their lord as long as they were payed for it. Ninjas were also used to secretly assassinate the leader of the other house, since they could climb the walls, use shadows in their favor and fight Samurai with little to no effort since Samurai was armored warrior > slow and clunky comparing to Ninjas. As the word about Ninjas spreaded across the Japan, even Emperor was worried for his own life because there were a lot of houses that were against the emperor so he payed even more to create his own ninja forces to protect him if other Ninjas get close to him. As well as I know, Emperor was kinda paranoic because of the ninjas so he sent his own ninjas to nearby willage to spy and kill other "enemy" ninjas which resulted in massive slaughter in that willage because Emperor was wrong, those innocent peasants were not ninjas, they were just a normal folk. That storry was literally a BOOM in the japan and since then Ninjas were considered bad, evil, murders, etc, ets so they were basically forbiden even tho they continued to assassinate as the part of their protest.

Read the Zed's quote: Forbidden shadow wins!

So basically Ninjas were mercenaries, not a royal guard, they were both assassins (Zed) and protectors (Shen).

Sevetar1 votes

{quoted}

Zed is a Ninja and that's enough to fit the assassin theme.

In the other hand Shen is a ninja too but he's a tank. Why?

Ninjas were not just assassins lurking in shadows and killing Samurais without making a sound, but they ere also Emperors secret body guard that's why Zed is an assassin and Shen is a tank (peeler).

TRUE

FantasySniper5 votes

Well, to be fair, many Fantasy-esque assassins can be outfitted with (seemingly) magical skills suiting to their profession. Shadows are an integral part of this fantasy because of any assassin's reliance on darkness.

Verandure7 votes

He was talking about Malzahar

That dagger you never see him use? That can rip open an inter-dimensional portal where a legion of hungry voidborn are ready to consume anything thrown into it.

The unseen blade, man.

My Waifu Vanilla2 votes

{quoted}

That dagger you never see him use? That can rip open an inter-dimensional portal where a legion of hungry voidborn are ready to consume anything thrown into it.

Like Kassadin's daughter

VasilisGreen3 votes

Talon's superiority? Seriously? You compare a dude who is good at throwing knives to a dude that can send a shadow to kill you instead? In a "real life situation" with no game mechanics and confinements, how is talon supposed to kill the shadow that zed threw at him? Also, talon can't become invisible out of game, that's a game mechanic. So, what is he gonna do? turn the lights on? Zed can still deathmark him and walk away. There is no "damage" and "hp" in a real duel. talon can't even touch zed in an actual out of game fight. He can elude him but that's all... Also, even if talon is better at handling blades, he is not unseen... That's the point. You will NEVER see zed coming. Zed doesn't have to come at you himself, he will bring your own shadow to life to kill you. Also, how does talon fit the assassin theme more than zed? He is another type of assassin, that's all. Talon is an assassin like in assassin's creed, blending in the crowd, hiding his presence and being a master at handling blades and throwing knives also having very good dueling skills. Zed is a ninja empowere with the shadow technique, using shadows to deceive you and kill you without ever seeing where it came from, lurking in the darkness, using even your own shadow to appear behind you and slit your throat, or make your own shadow emerge behind you and kill you without him having to lift a finger. In modern standards, none of them fits the assassin theme. Modern assassins are equiped with snipers, shooting your head off from a mile away. So, your point? Do you even "assassin" bro? :P Zed The unseen blade is the deadliest

CasterGilgamesh10 votes

talon actually can become invisible outside of game have you not read his judgment it's obvious that he is no common assassin if he can kill other assassins and he even caught a summoner off guard he is on toe with Katarina a woman who can kill a large group of demacian soldiers while only getting one minor wound.... you need to give Noxians the respect they deserve.

VasilisGreen1 votes

Dude, where did you find those so called judgements? On lol wiki? those are FANMADE, not made by riot. Judgements were writen by some players in the old forums, they are not made by riot. So, you should check your sources again. Talon doesn't posses and magic powers nor does he have any mystical powers, knowlege or techniques. Zed does. also, there is no hint in his lore that he actualy can turn invisible. Being able to "hide in plain sight" and blend in his environment is a skill but becoming invisible is only achieved with magic or a Nanosuit and this game is called League of Legends, not Crysis. Don't confuse game mechanics with a fictional world's reality and the powers of each person. If the game worked with laws applying to an actual world, Xerath would only be killed by mages and Zed's Shadows. Every darius ult would be an instakill, Whenever you hit malphite, chogath, rek'sai and nautilus, your weapon would break, when yasuo strikes Jax, if jax blocked, yasuo would cut clean through jax's wooden lamp, caitlyn, mf, gp, and lucian would kill you from Turret to Turret distance, Caitlyn would snipe you from anywhere and nidalee's spear would actualy not hurt you if it hit you from a very long range. Gragas would never catch up to anyone and would definitely not have the strength to throw himself like that, every tordle would becut to pieces if anyone managed to hit them and if lux/ryze/morgana snared you, you would be dead for sure. Oh, btw, in magic, there are no skillshots and you never miss, because magic, i ain't gotta explain shit. Oh, you think that the dude you see there is Zed? Too late, you are already dead because your own shadow killed you and all you saw was zed looking at you and thrusting his armblade towards your belly from over there. Your point?

Melledoneus5 votes

Talon actually uses the blades to scatter them, use light reflection to conceal his movements. And when he reappears he acts sharply back into focus. It's very difficult, yes. But Talon isn't in the League for no reason. He can do stuff that will surprise you.

VasilisGreen1 votes

dude, how will the blades do that illusion? what kind of mindfuk is this? lol. Still, he isn't superior to zed out of game with worldly laws and physics. Talon can conceal his presence, zed can dissappear completely. i didn't say he is unworthy of the league, i said he is not superior to zed. lol.

LemurKick6 votes

dude dude dude dude, Okay now that I've got your attention here's a link to Talons judgement posted by a Rioter http://forums.na.leagueoflegends.com/board/showthread.php?t=1121498 get informed m8

Only Play Darius2 votes

Not rly since Zed is really a better version of Talon and the only difference is that Talon, unlike Zed, isn't rendered useless by a single item.

VasilisGreen1 votes

Zed is not a better version of talon. It's more like the opposite. I am a zed main but i do admit that talon can be stronger but zed has a better laning and is easier to get fed. A talon with 450 AD can delete you before you can even say hi! If you see him coming at you and he is fed, you will die, you can't escape him. He has no skillshots and he has a bunch of damage multipliers. His passive, his E. And those 2 overlap. I am not sure if his passive and his E amplifier go additive or multiplicative, but they stack anyway. So, you just youmus and QERWAA dead... You turn on Q and then you E, so all of your damage is amplified for the whole combo.... So, when you e, they are slowed and take all the following damage amplified by both the passive and the E... Q damage, W damage R damage, both outwards and inwards and the next AA, also, the Hydra active. Everything is amplified by 15% from the E and the AAs are further amped up by his passive. also, his W scales with 120% bonus AD while Zed's Q goes for 100% bonus AD. So with the 450 AD, his bonus AD is 342. So, with that stats let's see the damage. His Q does 150+0.3bAD and 50+1.2bAD DoT. W does 260+1.2bAD and his R does 220+0.9bAD damage in each pass. now let's add them. 30% of 342 is 102, 90% is 307 and 120% is 410. add all of those together. we have 150+102+260+410+(2202)+(3072)=1931. Now, let's add the DoT. It is 1931+50+410=2391. Now, all this is spell damage and since we started with E, it is all have a 15% bonus. This makes it 2391+15%=2749,65. I didn't even count the AA's, the Hydra active and any possible crits. Wanna coun't zed's burst with the same bonus AD? let's see. Q is 235+1bAD. E is 180+0.8bAD. Now, let's assume they got hit by everything. We have Q3 and 23 because deathmark lasts for 3 seconds anf Q has 2.8 second's cd with 30% cdr. Multiple Q damage is not multiplied as it is, each Q does 50% less than the previous, that means that the first goes for 100%, the second gors for 50% and the last is 25% for a total of 175% damage. Now, we have (235+342)*1.75+(180+273)2=1915. That is his burst. Nothing more than that. I didn't count any other damage like item actives, AAs, passive, only spell damage. As you can see, Zed's Burst is considerably less than talons. And then you have the Deathmark pop damage... That is what changes everything. Now, the deathmark damage is your total AD+50%(DAMAGE DONE). Zed has 113 base AD, so his total AD is 455. so the ult pop damage is 455+(1915/2)=1412. so we have the damage done and the deathmark pop that add to 1412+1915=3327 damage. so, the overall damage is more but, you need the deathmark to pop to reach that damage. And if they get a Qss it will not pop. Talon is immune to Qss. You can cleanse his bleed but nothing more. Also, let's be realistic, if you get the same items to both zed and talon, zed will likely have 100 more AD, so it will boost him much more but he still won't have that high burst. But in any case, they will both will kill their target if zed's ult isn't denied, but talon can do it much faster while zed can escape with it even easier. Also, talon is weak to the pink ward but zed isn't. But overall, talon is a bit faster with that job.

SociopathFriend1 votes

I played a 3v3 with some friends once My team: Talon Khazix Riven Their team: KogMaw TwistedFate DrMundo Our Riven forgot he had class so about 10 minutes in or so he remembered he had to go and just ditched us; and then it was just pain- it ended up being like a 2 hour match. We actually managed to win- they got right up to our Nexus a few times before we respawned and both leaped over the wall together to burst them dead.

But I remember Kog was getting paranoid as hell because I had a Youmuu's; he'd just hear the sound effect and start screaming- "Oh god I heard it- he's coming again!" I've never been able to delete people that quickly with Zed as I did with Talon that day; sure I died after I got my man (damn TF ult+ stun card). But Kog could never survive and after I eventually realized TF could see me I bought a Mercurial and I could kill him too.

VasilisGreen2 votes

Ye, i get what you mean. On a single target, talon can do a much faster job but zed can use the shadows to actualy kill the rest of the team too if fed enough. i still remember that one ult i did 1v4 and i tossed W on the other side, effectively boxing them in, i was like, R, W away, E->Q->Botrk active on my target and an AA with the passive, Then W to swap, E again AA, i killed 2 guys like that. Then, the other 2 were between me and the R shadow, R shadow is there for 6 seconds and hitting everyone with my Qs and E i was almos full energy so i Q and hit them bot and i swap to that shadow and take them both out. Damn, i miss those days before that filthy tank meta. Life was so nice back then. You could carry your own games. Anyway, that's the strength of Zed against talon, zed can be powerful even vs more enemies and can help effectively in a teamfight too. Talon can't do that. Also, with zed, even if you fail to kill your target, you can still vanish to nothingness. With talon you just die. And in terms of the matchup of Talon vs Zed, if zed has a pink nearby, he can destroy talon because he is too elusive for talon to keep up, but without one, if talon uses his ult efectively can take out zed twice as fast. The winner will still be the best player but imo, talon has an edge in burst while zed is better at deceiving. Also, zed has a higher outplay potential. A pink ward can make talon's ult stealth completely useless while a Qss isn't enough to keep you alive vs zed in a 1v1. Sometimes, just the triple Q, E and the AA is enough to kill any squishy assassin, mage or ADC, making your ult only usefull as a gapcloser. And the way Zed can jump betwee shadows and hit his spells at the same time can keep him out of talon's range while talon tries to keep up. And if you hit verything and talon has a Qss, you jump back to the one shadow that isn't used yet and finish him off with AA with passive and blade's active. That silence talon had back then was essential to burst zed before he could even react. When they removed that, talon was out of the counterpick list for zed imo.

Champion Skin3 votes

Zed is also better at 1v1 against tanks and other durable targets as his ult is an insane damage amplifier enabling him to dunk insane amounts of damage into a single target (Also works very well with item 3153 which deals more damage the more health the target has and the ult mark can then finish the target and of course the mark also amplify the activation damage of item 3153 as well)

Though Talon is clearly better at quickly assassinating and removing squishy targets and he can AoE down entire teams if they bunch up as he uses his R + R + W (or whatever his rake was)

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