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Sunfire was pushed to be for top lane tanks that lack waveclear.

Ralanr··26 votes·1,596 views

Except to be a top lane tank you need to have waveclear. There are only two top lane tanks I can think of that don't have AoE waveclear abilities, Shen and Gnar (unless you consider his Q waveclear) and of the two I don't see Gnar making much use of the short range on this item.

Other than that, you have your support tanks (Sorry Tahm, this is where you're considered) who are actively trying to avoid taking CS from their allies. Making sunfire a terrible item for support tanks.

So why exactly was it pushed to be a "pushing" tool to help tanks that lacked waveclear when there were few top lane tanks that actually lacked waveclear? Ignoring that the radius is so small that you need to be right on top of the creeps to burn them.

That sucks in lane and in late game wave pushing. But you know where that doesn't suck? In the jungle.

So was cinderhulk the main target of the bami burn balance? Leaving Sunfire to just work poorly in lane so cinderhulk at least works better in the jungle?

63 Comments

Jbels19 votes

They need to rework the item. The idea that every other class is allowed to have a powerspike item but tanks aren't pisses me off. Not only that, but they actually think the item is in an okay spot because they've already fucking moved on. Now they're making support item tweaks that literally nobody asked for

Erockandroll12 votes

{quoted}

They need to rework the item. The idea that every other class is allowed to have a powerspike item but tanks aren't pisses me off. Not only that, but they actually think the item is in an okay spot because they've already fucking moved on. Now they're making support item tweaks that literally nobody asked for

You mean people weren't bitching about Locket and Redemption?

What Tanks actually need for a power spike, is one good caster item. Because OP is pretty much correct about Tanks having waveclear on most of their abilities, they just need itemization to facilitate that. But the Closest options are the Catalysis items, (better if you were a Tank/AP hybrid) or either Frozen Heart or IBG.

Ralanr2 votes

Might be the reason for the Rightous Glory changes on the PBE.

kasfas1 votes

Was about to say, but the changes don't look as good as they should.

The active is even worse than before because you have no control over it popping but the stats are a small net buff. hp regen and cdr on one item is good but now it has less health so it becomes worse as the general item I was hoping it to be.

I'm definetely going to try it and it may become a good substitute to deadmans in some early laning, but the changes are not quite what I was looking for. And it definitely won't make me stop buying corrupting pot double Dorans during laning.

Jbels2 votes

{quoted}

You mean people weren't bitching about Locket and Redemption?

What Tanks actually need for a power spike, is one good caster item. Because OP is pretty much correct about Tanks having waveclear on most of their abilities, they just need itemization to facilitate that. But the Closest options are the Catalysis items, (better if you were a Tank/AP hybrid) or either Frozen Heart or IBG.

The nomad's medallion line gives mana now, and Zeke's Harbinger has a frost storm attached to it. That's about as left field as it can get

Penns4 votes

Could be wrong but I think Riot was less trying to actually make it a wave clear item and more trying to make it a not - "deal high dmg to champions around you just for existing" item.

Ralanr6 votes

It was both. They were pushing it from both to one extreme.

The problem is that they pushed very far away from the damage and not close to the waveclear/pushing.

Shadow Hazard1 votes

They weren't pushing it to one extreme they were removing part of what made it extreme. They could have gone a similar route by attaching a damage nerf to champs on the burn.

No shift in power. Flat out toning down of the item

Ralanr1 votes

Except they did make the damage more effective against minions. That's a power shift.

Shadow Hazard2 votes

to compensate for nerfing its damage, equally around to about a net zero change to minion farming damage. aka power removal

Ralanr1 votes

Do you have the math to back yourself up?

Shadow Hazard1 votes

This current sunfire is weaker at lvl 1 and 2, breaks even at lvl 3 and lvl 4+ it is stronger than pre tank update cindercoat for minion damage(22.5 stronger by lvl 18). So actually i am wrong the damage is shifted but on that same point your complaint is literally baseless.

Ralanr3 votes

Except they actually reduced the total radius of sunfire. Making it much less effective and honestly a terrible pushing tool.

Jbels2 votes

{quoted}

Could be wrong but I think Riot was less trying to actually make it a wave clear item and more trying to make it a not - "deal high dmg to champions around you just for existing" item.

Then the item has no point and should be changed

Vallalan4 votes

mana is a thing my man. or cooldowns rather. sure sion and poppy can push with spells. but to maximize your time on the map you dont just wanna spam spells on creep waves or you'll be backing constantly.

tiamat/sunfire/shiv/ludens etc all do that for their respective roles.

Itsbeghdev1 votes

Also a big help with keeping Grasp up on those few champions who still use it this season.

INoble KnightI1 votes

Also helps Singed a lot as well

kasfas3 votes

The problem here is Tiamat, Shiv and Ludens give good duelling power on top of its waveclear, where as sunfire doesn't anymore.

It's as if you took hydra and made its passive deal 20% damage to champions. You just made the item garbage, however the champions who bought it would still buy it because many of them don't have any waveclear of their own.

Tanks on the other hand often have very good built in waveclear, and as such when you take away the duelling power from sunfire, no tank will buy it anymore when they can instead get an item that grants them better duelling power or mana sustain which are a tanks two major problems.

kasfas4 votes

New righteous glory is going to replace sunfire as the tank-laning item. Sunfire is going to go join ohmwrecker and zzrot in the bad items corner in the shop.

Big Lincoln3 votes

top lane tahm tho????????

and DrMundo lacks good waveclear since his W eats up his health if he leaves it on especially early-mid game, sunfire alleviated that a lot

Ralanr1 votes

Top lane Tahm is dead as far as I know.

That's also why they ended up buffing Mundo's W. He actually has a waveclear ability, it just needed a small buff.

Slythion1 votes

tfw Mundo and Tahm are both dead top :'(

Hyperiön3 votes

Mundo has certain matchups where he is really good. And in Low elo, he is kinda like Nasus. They don't know how to stop him.

Slythion2 votes

maybe, but hard stats show him at pretty much the same level as Tahm :'(

Tahm: 0.7% popularity w/ 45.7% win rate

Mundo: 1.3% popularity w/ 45.9% win rate

regardless on similarities, they are both guttered atm anyways item 3070

Hyperiön3 votes

Well yeah, he is a super old champ. and Grievous wounds fucks him to no end.

Slythion1 votes

Poor Mundo :(

Slythion3 votes

It's been awhile since I played Gnar so my current knowledge of him might not be applicable. Back when he was a decent champion (a yearish ago) sunfire was a core item for Gnar, as you would generally build Gnar for his megaform (unless you were the item 3071 -> item 3022 -> item 3153 building freelo cancer for a time)

There is another toplane tank you forgot about: Poppy, and it's pretty good on her as well.

Generally you are correct though, it's not really built for it's passive. Sunfire is just another tank item that is thrown into builds because it provides a lot of hp and some armour. It may not be a core item for a lot of people and it's passive isn't too useful, but it's a viable item for a very a lot of champions

Ralanr1 votes

Though I'm not sure it'd be good now with the smaller radius.

Slythion3 votes

That's true...I'm just a little salty about some of my favorite top laner's current health in the game item 3070 DrMundo Gnar item 3070

I do agree that sunfire is a problem item and the changes didn't do much and may have made it even worse

Ralanr1 votes

Yeah, now the problem is "it sucks way too much".

And I didn't forget about Poppy. Her Q has waveclear.

Slythion2 votes

I wouldn't personally call Poppy's Q a reliable (or even efficient) form of wave clear but that's just me

Ralanr1 votes

Waveclear is waveclear and it's great for killing creeps in my experience.

Slythion1 votes

perhaps shrugs

TTK Dreadnought1 votes

imagine how i feel. I used to love randiun omen because the 4sec slow let me get two of illaoi's W off. Now its only one. so i actually had to SWITCH to sunfire cape for my armor item.

Funkin Dunkin2 votes

Urgot has the game's worst wave clear and he doesn't even use cinder :\

Ralanr18 votes

He's not a tank...and is ranged.

Funkin Dunkin2 votes

Those who know how to play him would say otherwise. My last game with him I survived 1v3 with only 20% damage overall done.

Ralanr22 votes

Tanky==Tank.

Velzard of Koz4 votes

So If you know how to play a champion they suddenly change their role, natural scalings and inner balance in their kit? I think more accurate would be "Those who know how to build him", in case you want to stick with tank build being the correct one for him.

Also which last game? I checked your match history and can't find any "Tank" build for Urgot. Me building RoA, Banshee's and Ninja Tabi on Vel'Koz wouldn't suddenly make me Tankoz.

Lucian Waifu3 votes

{quoted}

He's not a tank...and is ranged.

And has decent wave clear.

Ralanr3 votes

Still not a tank so not the main target of this discussion.

FeelsCampedMan2 votes

Sunfire used to be standard first item on Gnar when he first came out

Darkdemon6531 votes

Not to mention that THydra serves the same purpose and is now far superior to SCape in every aspect

Ralanr2 votes

Sadly the only tank that really builds hydra is Shen. It doesn't offer stats that tanks want.

DeathBurst1 votes

Well it does offer a shit ton of HP. Don't you build it on Mundo/Sion? At least as a situational item?

Ralanr2 votes

Mundo isn't a tank (and I don't play Mundo enough to comment on his builds).

Sion? No. I have enough waveclear in all three of my basic abilities and I don't really auto attack often enough to benefit from it to be a damage threat. Even with my passive, which is more useful with frozen mallet because of the team utility it ends up offering when I'm dead.

If I'm doing a Sion juggernaut off build? Then yeah it's core. I never build it on tank Sion though.

Proxy3451 votes

Chogath still likes item 3001+item 3068 lol

Sinlaire3 votes

dunno why. Saw a guy post last week that Cho Gath at 6 stacks actually has a larger character model than the Sunfire Cape burn radius.

wish i was joking but it literally looked like the tooltop was showing a small hoola hoop around his waist. New Sunfire is just bad.

Proxy3451 votes

I just tested the sunfire cape with Cho'Gath at 21 stacks and it still works like normal at melee range despite being smaller than his body,which is weird.

Sinlaire1 votes

well atleast there's that. but how much does cho really need that burn though? with his vorpal spike (e?) he can splash in front of him and clear waves well out of sunfires range for minimal to negligable mana cost. a cho at 21 stacks probably doesnt ever notice sunfire because he can clear waves in a rotation and probably clear champions in a rotation with a good feast.

cho can probably use sunfire in lane when he can't afford to conytol waves with his splash but i really cant see where he would need it for more than a few seconds beyond level 12 much less into a decent stack and feed range. deadmans for additonal catching or randuins for the crit reduction and slow active could serve him a lot better in my opinion.

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