Anybody remember when tanks were actually tanky? I do, and here's how it was...

Melledoneus··160 votes·9,465 views

EDIT: Holy crap this is getting some attention. This was just a thread about me venting about my first-world tank problems and I come back with double digit notifications (and upvotes whoo). Thanks for getting this thread attention, guys! If I knew it was going to be this popular, I would have made it a bit neater in the least.

It was a nice and simple time, where I would play Shen (I still do, he's my Shenpai! blushes). I would be fighting somebody like Riven, where I would be cautious about farming and eventually get armor to be able to zone her. I would have trouble against Chogath and Rumble, but I would survive laning phase and help bot lane get fed, or help mid lane get a kill and push. We would get dragon, and I would be the guy to get those pesky assassins off my carries and dive the back line, forcing them to auto me for reduced damage. I would be that guy who if you focused me, you were wasting your damage and cooldowns, because I had stacked resistances and health, and the only one who passed that rule by was Vayne, but it was all worth it when I would manage to lock her down or bait out her tumble so that my team could destroy her via focusing. It was great.

Compare that to today. I will build 400 armor and attack speed slows, over 3000 HP, and this Fiora creature woman would come with her toothpick rapier and take 60% of my HP as if I was the ADC. I would be able to walk into my own lane without this TahmKench frog-looking motherf*cker guy taking 32% of my health in magic damage when he was building the same items as me. And god forbid I try to dive the carries if he presses W and runs off like a jolly fellow who just skipped home after winning the lottery. And with the new ADC tank-buster items coming in (wasn't item 3153 item 3035 enough, for pete's sake?), I feel like tanks will not only be down-trodden, but laughably weak. I'm not saying that the item 3725 meta was Riot's gift to League, but by Urgot it is better than what we have now. I know that tanks are not meant to be invincible, but this is my opinion of what a tank is in this meta (if you're not Mr. TahmKench Hanks over there):

A CC-based champion who builds resistances and health to counter burst, but would be lucky to last 3 seconds longer than the mid laner.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't it better when tanks were stronger? They don't build damage (usually) and have miserable laning phases against DPS just to get back at them in the late game not by KILLING their opponents, but by relying on their team to do that when they catch someone out. I'd prefer a meta where the guys meant to soak up damage are stronger than those meant to deal it. I'm not glorifying the tank age, but for goodness' sake give us a way to counter these 4 ANNOYING things:

  1. Focusing the tank. I know it generally doesn't work in theory, but with this new meta and all this shredding of tanks, oh, it works... a little too well. Besides item 3053, we have no way for tanks to shrug off some damage except if they have some in-built damage reduction, which is rare even in tanks. An item to reduce damage would be great, as it would help us soak up damage better and have some breathing room against all this %HP true damage going around. I know it sounds broken, but maybe there could be a weakness, like making it an active or something.

  2. True damage. Ok, true damage by itself is fun and all when it's used on things MEANT to shred people like Vayne and Darius (he needs time to get stacks on you for the nuke, so it has counterplay). But when it starts becoming a thing on light fighters Fiora that are hard to kill because mobility and utility. Personally, I think that her vitals are cool and all, it's a little mini-game to try to hit your opponent's weak spot. It's interactive and that's what makes lanes interesting. What I don't like is when she gets no punishment for not hitting a vital, she can use them to essentially destroy you no matter how tanky you are, and there not a damn thing you can do if you don't have escapes. And it's a known fact that tanks are not mobile by default. I wish there was an item that could mitigate this, as I don't think think nerfing everybody who has true damage would be fair, since it is integral to their kits.

  3. Critical strike chance. By god, you will know what I'm talking about when you deal with the horror that is Yasuo top as a tank. You can build all the armor you want, critical strikes will destroy you regardless. Unless you're one of these guys Malphite Rammus, you are going to have a bad time. item 3143 is the only item I know of that reduces critical strike damage, which I find to be ludicrous in a meta that encourages AD carries to build crit chance. We need more!

  4. The abundance of CC. I know this may fall into the category of getting focused, but when you, as a tank, can't move while the enemy is immobilizing and slowing you to oblivion, it's annoying. I'm the tank, I want to do my job. Tanks are what are supposed to soak up the CC more effectively than the carries not only because they are tankier, but are affected less. In my opinion, instead of removing item 3172 completely, Riot should take the tenacity and put it into a defensive item. Yes, I know it's going to be broken as hell on Irelia, but she needs a rework anyway. I know that isn't a good solution, but I admit I will never be as good as finding solutions to balance things as Riot, even though they mess up here and there.


In conclusion, I just want to mention that while my venting may or may not have brought up things that haunt tanks to this day, Riot stated that they're working on each class one at a time. So here's what I mean.

First, we had an AP rework. It was small, but it made AP items less hard to build. There's bound to be another.

Then, we had a juggernaut rework, combining the damage of fighters and the durability of tanks to create someone you want to keep away from your team, but can't kill as fast.

Now, we are having an ADC rework. Helping carries define what makes them unique, as well as creating more situational items to deal with nearly unkillable champions (Garen DERMERSHIA) and fit ADCs into the niche roles of dueling, sieging, split pushing, or team fighting.

Riot, if you can hear me, just read at least this mini-paragraph: If your next rework is a tank rework, make it so that at least one of these issues is addressed. People like myself who like to play tanks find it difficult to do our job even now. I know you're updating the game one role at a time, but in my hopefully unbiased opinion, tanks will be the best move to make next.

Thank you for taking your time to read this. If you don't feel like scaling the Great Wall of Text, here's a Tl,dr:

Tl,dr: Tanks die too fast, ruining the point of being a tank. Therefore, I propose that true damage, critical strike chance, and general team fighting for tanks be given unique itemization as to create more interesting and interactive build paths. Let's hope tanks are next on Riot's rework list.

222 Comments

g07h4xf0015 votes

Pepperidge Farm remembers.

Also to the jack-ass who said tanks would be unkillable--they never were and guess what? Not dying is also fun. The game is won through objectives, not kills.

Very Hard Engage13 votes

i miss 3 second rammus taunts, i didn't need to live, was awesome when i did, i just ensured their yasuo/yi/zed, carry etc, would die too. and as always, tank for enemy carry is a great trade.

Melledoneus18 votes

I miss Rammus in general.

disregardable9 votes

You do realize tanks need to die, right? If they're unkillable/have no weaknesses, the game isn't fun.

Doctor Jarvis68 votes

They need to die...EVENTUALLY. But the whole thing tanks do is use their cc to initiate fights, and that usually gets them right in the middle of them. Now why would I do that if I know Im going to die instantly even if my team backs me up (and my god do those fuckers not do that) because my health and resistances dont mean shit against Fiora or Vayne. Just a light buff to tanks survivability to reward them for doing their job would be nice.

disregardable5 votes

Why would you think you should live more than 5 seconds if you go in 1v5? I mean it's one thing if you're Sejuani or Ekko and you just stun the entire team, but on Shen? You should instantly die, yes. Why? Because it'd be 50,000 gold worth of items raining down on top of your 10,000 gold worth of items.

Do counters exist in this game? Yes they do. But I don't see you saying "It's so amazing that I can withstand Fizz/Kassadin top's burst, he can barely do anything to me in lane!".

Doctor Jarvis28 votes

Aatrox Amumu Gnar JarvanIV Malphite Maokai Rammus Shen Sejuani Zac are all champs whose jobs on a team are to engage by diving directly into the enemy team. Im not saying that if they do a dumb thing they should be able to get out just fine, but when they're doing their job and initiating with hard cc so their team can kill the enemy it would be nice if they could survive the experience on a MORE regular basis

disregardable1 votes

Most of the champions on that list are the more successful tanks in the game?

Melledoneus41 votes

You haven't been here for the Sejuani nerfs, then.

And Aatrox isn't a tank.

disregardable3 votes

neither is JarvanIV. I didn't make the list.

CasterGilgamesh24 votes

Jarven actually is a tank...it's only that riot buffed his passive so he could be better top lane.

Melledoneus33 votes

Slowly raises hand

ayNigerianPrince10 votes

Why do I always see you getting in over your head in arguments?

I mean I guess there's the username but still.

Melledoneus2 votes

I saw your username.

Then I gave you an upvote.

ayNigerianPrince1 votes

third time editing im just going to tell you im not the Shen god you want me to be =(

Melledoneus2 votes

You have disappointedme, my son.

disregardable5 votes

hey, I admit when I'm wrong. ^^ and if I don't admit it, I don't think I'm wrong.

ayNigerianPrince3 votes

The only thing you admitted to being wrong about was Jarvan being a tank. Not the rest of the bullshit you spit out.

LICENSED HOOKER2 votes

But the whole thing tanks do is use their cc to _initiate _fights, How 2 initiate fights when i get kited by Vayne and i lose 1/4th my hp lmao

ihaveapotion8 votes

it all comes down to: riot fucked up extremely hard and have no idea what they are doing anymore.

Melledoneus8 votes

Well, that's one way of looking at it. This is the same company that comes up with awesome content like URF and the Sion rework. I think it's a temporary imbalance of the game as they update each role one by one. It may not be the least frustrating to deal with, but I have faith the tank update will be glorious. I'm tired of positioning perfectly and being more skilled than my opponent just for them to win by smashing their keyboard or right clicking me then going AFK.

Caytheles8 votes

I remember when i was Braum and i was actually tanky. Now its like "Oh you used W on yourself and have Unbreakable up? that's cute" and get bursted and or true dmgd. Tanks are good still. but not how they are supposed to be.

Melledoneus10 votes

Poor Braum. He's perhaps the worst scaling tank in the game. I mean, for somebody that's supposed to be tanky.

Rebonack6 votes

I'm just popping in to mention that both Whisper and Bork are getting nerfed next patch.

Bork's OnHit is dropping to 6% and Whisper is only going to punch through bonus armor, which means it'll only break even with the old Whisper if you have seven times as much bonus armor vs base. This means that if you're doing a good enough job Tanking to force the enemy ADC to buy Whisper, you're significantly gimping their damage against the soft members of your team!

Doesn't help against Fiora, though. She's still bullshit.

Melledoneus5 votes

That's one thing that I want to hug Riot for. LW was the go-to item for every single AD in the game. Assassins build it, ADCs build it, fighters build it, Darius doesn't need to build it but sometimes does. Whenever I saw someone build it, it just feels awful.

Edit: Just saw the LW upgrade item. Yay...

Mimaropa5 votes

You forgot the new ad items too. Whisper is getting nerfed but is upgradable to destroy tanks, one deals more damage to high hp tanks while the other negates sustain(poor mundo). I'm not going to list every single one but the example I gave should give a horrible glimpse.

Taric the Gay6 votes

Gems

Melledoneus3 votes

Outrageous.

Haestro4 votes

Being a tank does not mean wading 1v5 into enemy team and expecting to survive. We can debate all about what "being a tank means" but the reality is tanks are durable enough to make engages (and usually have the cc to do so) so that they can effectively start fights without dying instantly. They aren't supposed to be like prenerf Mundo and invalidate any sort of damage dealer hitting them pre-40 minutes in the game.

Melledoneus5 votes

{quoted} I know that tanks are not meant to be invincible.

And I know it well. However, you yourself said that:

the reality is tanks are durable enough to make engages (and usually have the cc to do so) so that they can effectively start fights without dying instantly.

Meaning that you agree that you should be able to engage without getting blown up if you're building the right tank items with strong resistances and health to back it up. When a champion deals 38% of your maximum HP in true damage in one auto attack when you build against her, you know there's something wrong with that.

ProfDrDeath3 votes

No, he did not say without getting blown up. He said without getting blown up immediately. There is an important difference between those two things.

If a tank engages and gets blown up by the full enemy team focusing him, he did his damn job. And the tanks team should make something out of the enemy team just having blown their damage on a single target.

ihaveapotion4 votes

Oh those mythical times of old where tanks dealt little to no damage but were the only ones with aoe hard cc. ..well cept for fiddle but he used to be really squishy.

Slamurai Jack3 votes

Why the hell are you stacking a bunch of armor against a Yasuo top? Where's your item 3068? You know what Yasuo does against any champion with sunfire cape? He dies. That's it. He just dies. Sunfire absolutely destroys squishy top laners and Yasuo is the squishiest of them all. Less item 3110, more item 3068. And even stacking armor against Yasuo works for the first 25 minutes or so. His damage against tanky targets is absolutely pitiful before he has 2 items. Literally any champion with decent base damages that builds straight tank rolls Yasuo for the first 25 minutes. You've got lots of solid options here. Darius DrMundo Garen Malphite Maokai Olaf Shyvana Shen Sion Trundle Volibear

Melledoneus1 votes

Whenever I play Shen, I think of what to build that would help me win the game, not the lane. I know I'll lose a turret if I turn that skirmish at bot lane into a double kill, a turret, and a dragon. If only there was an item that gave an aura for armor...

Boxpencil2 votes

There's a mastery in defense that reduces Critical strikes damage by 10%, combine that with Randuins and that's 35% reduced critical strike damage on Yas. Not to mention, Yasuo already has 15% reduced crit damage on his Q.

That's 50% Total reduced crit damage for his Q if ya go with that mastery and Randuins. 35% for his Autos if ya go with that mastery and Randuins.

Melledoneus4 votes

You seem to forget that Yasuo does more damage at level 1 than Riven. I have to force myself to lose a wave at least in order to let it push to me so I can farm.

Boxpencil1 votes

I suppose so. However, you should still have reduced crit damage against Yasuo lategame. It should help.

Melledoneus2 votes

It certainly does, but when he gets item 3035 (which is a core item on him), and if he manages to get an ultimate off, your bonus armor is essentially halved, without LW. It's kind of hard to itemize against that, ever since item 3075 got nerfed.

Although he is squishy, so if you have a shred of peel on your team you should be able to stop him if he tries to engage on your carries. Should.

JJI7442 votes

Allow me to translate:

"I miss when I could play like a wuss, stack defense, and it would be the ideal way to win the game. To hell with this meta where taking the safe route isn't the best way to win and people are rewarded for taking risks."

kile14724 votes

The safe route being jumping on the enemy knowing full well that even if things go sideways you can still probably get out? Fizz, Zed, Leblanc

JJI7442 votes

{quoted}

The safe route being jumping on the enemy knowing full well that even if things go sideways you can still probably get out? Fizz, Zed, Leblanc

No, the safe route being when building full tank renders you dam near invincible and also happens to be the best way to win the game.

Neitehr Fizz, Zed or LB can build tanky and be useful. Notice that when one of them could, he got nerfs.

Melledoneus19 votes

Then tell me, what is the point of building tank when you get deleted like a squishy? My point was that tanks are crippled in this meta of shredding, %HP damage, and overall resistance ignoring. There has not been a single tank buff since Cinderhulk was nerfed. Not a single one. Tanks have received nothing but nerfs since early S5, and this new ADC rework is hitting them even harder. And no, I don't consider TahmKench to be a tank. He's a support that happens to be very hard to kill and run away from.

JJI7441 votes

{quoted}

Then tell me, what is the point of building tank when you get deleted like a squishy? My point was that tanks are crippled in this meta of shredding, %HP damage, and overall resistance ignoring. There has not been a single tank buff since Cinderhulk was nerfed. Not a single one. Tanks have received nothing but nerfs since early S5, and this new ADC rework is hitting them even harder. And no, I don't consider TahmKench to be a tank. He's a support that happens to be very hard to kill and run away from.

You don't die like a squishy? Being killable does not equate to dying like a squishy. A tank gets hit by, say, a Nidalee Q, and loses ~15% of their HP. The same spear puts an ADC in execute range.

Hell, a tank has a BotRK Vayne hitting them, and they still last 3 times as long as a squishy, and thats a champions literally built to kill tanks.

EDIT:

Oh, and as to why there were no tank buffs since Cinderhulk was nerfed, just maybe it was because it was stupidly OP. Or maybe your one of the players that argued that ADCs dying to Thornmail+Gromp was balanced, or that full tanks topping the damage charts was a great gaming enviroment. Or that THIS was not at all unbalanced:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SQWNunKcfqY#t=1m38s

Melledoneus9 votes

Being killable does not equate to dying like a squishy. A tank gets hit by, say, a Nidalee Q, and loses ~15% of their HP. The same spear puts an ADC in execute range.

Nidalee is not a good example of this because she deals flat damage for most of her abilities. The problems I had were regarding champions with shred and/or %HP damage. Regardless, the reason why Nidalee doesn't instantly kill the tank is either because they had built MR and HP, meaning that Nidalee's damage is mitigated. When champions like Fiora deal a percentage of your health in true damage, that's pure damage. No mitigation, and it also uses the fact that you built HP against you.

Hell, a tank has a BotRK Vayne hitting them, and they still last 3 times as long as a squishy, and thats a champions literally built to kill tanks.

Vayne deals a percentage of true damage to her target's HP as well. Technically speaking, her silver bolts proc should kill tanks just as fast as a squishy, except for the fact that it has a base damage as well as the fact that she builds crit. Also, another reason why she might kill them slower is because some armor items (item 3143 item 3110 item 3082) have attack speed slows, slowing down the rate at which she auto attacks, and thus making silver bolts proc less often. Tanks are meant to last, squishies are not. But you see tanks get blown up all the time when any of the new champions/reworks are in that game.

Or that THIS was not at all unbalanced: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SQWNunKcfqY#t=1m38s

Let me just leave this here, cut straight from the OP:

I'm not saying that the item 3725 meta was the Riot's gift to League, but by Urgot it is better than what we have now. I know that tanks are not meant to be invincible

JJI7444 votes

{quoted}

Fiora deal a percentage of your health in true damage, that's pure damage. No mitigation, and it also uses the fact that you built HP against you.

Yeah, most tanks still survive Fiora solo for quite a while. Some for really extended periods of time(those who have some form of extra effective HP). Unless your building straight HP without any armor, most of her damage is still physical, not true.

Also, another reason why she might kill them slower is because some armor items (item 3143 item 3110 item 3082) have attack speed slows, slowing down the rate at which she auto attacks, and thus making silver bolts proc less often.

That was kinda my point, tanks can and do tank effectively if they build for it. Yes, they die eventually, but thats kind of a requirement for the game not to crawl to a stop. When even tank shredders kill squishy champions faster than they kill tanks, its hard to say tanks can't frontline.

Tanks are meant to last, squishies are not. But you see tanks get blown up all the time when any of the new champions/reworks are in that game.

Any of the reworks kills squishy a hell of a lot faster and easier than they kill tanks. Fiora is the worst of them for killing tanks quickly, and notice she is also the one that builds glass-cannon, and is kinda vunerable to CC and, well, death.

(Incidently, if you want to counterbuild Fiora, after you get some armour/HP, pick up a QSS, it removes her ult)

Let me just leave this here, cut straight from the OP:

Yeah, no. Cinderhulk was literally the worst Meta since Black Cleaver could stack. Tanks killed enemies without ever actually hitting them. The top of the damage charts was frequently also the tankiest person in the game. Toplane was literally "build tank, ignor enemy opponent."

Safe routes should never also be the most rewarding, or there is literally no reason to do anything but take the safe route.

Melledoneus3 votes

Unless your building straight HP without any armor, most of her damage is still physical, not true.

"Basic attacks and Riposte.png Riposte against a Vital deal 3% 「 (+ 2.7 + (0.1 × Fiora's level)% per 100 bonus AD) 」 of target's maximum health bonus true damage, heal Fiora for「 20 + (5 × Fiora's level) 」 and grant her 20% + (10% × Grand Challenge.png Grand Challenge's rank) bonus movement speed that decays over 1.75 seconds."

Let's say Fiora has 320 AD, because that's the typical amount of damage a Fiora has with her damage items (yes, Fioras build tank items, too. Don't act so surprised.). Now let's say that she's level 18 as well, for the sake of clarity. 200 of her AD is bonus AD, so that is an automatic 12% of your HP gone. Let's say she uses her ultimate on you. That's a straight 48% of your HP with the ultimate only, not considering the fact that her passive vitals and ult vitals overlap, allowing her to pop both at once. So she can hit you for a whopping 75% of your HP in approximately 4 seconds. That's true damage only. Now consider that she builds Last Whisper and/or Black Cleaver. Her insane base damage (yes, she has really good base damages as well, arguably the best amongst any top laner) itself will also shred through your health bar. Yeah, that's how Fiora kills tanks.

When even tank shredders kill squishy champions faster than they kill tanks, its hard to say tanks can't frontline.

Ok, when you think of the term "tank shredder," what do you think that means? My definition, and a confirmed definition by other learned players, are champions who excel at taking down tanks faster than their dueling counterparts. Now let's see that last part: dueling counterparts. This implies that ADCs like MF, Jinx, and Graves are not as adept at shredding tanks as Vayne, since Vayne's niche is shredding down tanks. However, that shouldn't mean that tanks should be rendered helpless. To give you a better idea, here's a more familiar example:

Orianna is squishy. She's made of aluminum foil when going up against her enemy laner: Zed. Zed is able to burst her down quickly and get out, and she can't react quick enough to retaliate. But there are two options for her: item 3157 and item 3140. These two items allow Orianna to counter Zed's death mark and negate his all-in completely.

See the pattern? You are forced to itemize to make up for your weakness, making it so that while you did divert your build path to counter a champion, you're reducing the crippling weaknesses you have as a class. So why can't tanks have that?

Fiora is the worst of them for killing tanks quickly, and notice she is also the one that builds glass-cannon, and is kinda vunerable to CC and, well, death.

Yeah, no she doesn't. Most Fiora players build two damage items on her then go full tank. She still destroys tanks just as fast, and with her constant armor shredding and true damage she can survive longer than most all-in fighters because of her mobility and the fact that she's a bigger threat than the mid-laner or ADC. Also, her W gives her a 'get out of jail free' card because it is the only mechanic in the game that counters EVERYTHING. You heard me right, it counters EVERYTHING. There are no real counters to Fiora, especially late game.

is kinda vunerable to CC and, well, death.

I'm always one to keep an open mind about champion balance and weaknesses. I'm sad to say that this is a generic argument for any mobile carry. I can argue all day that Riposte counters CC itself, but it won't achieve much. And death? You can't be serious. Karthus is maybe the only champion in the game whose plan it is to die in team fights.

Yeah, no. Cinderhulk was literally the worst Meta since Black Cleaver could stack. Tanks killed enemies without ever actually hitting them.

Contrary to popular belief, the only reason why Cinderhulk was considered OP was because health-stacking champions could take it top lane and scale extremely hard. Those champions were nerfed, but a little too hard, and never reverted the nerfs after Cinderhulk itself was nerfed. Furthermore, Black Cleaver has nothing to do with the Cinderhulk meta, that was back when Talon was considered broken in S4. It was better than people deleting you out of the game because they got near you. At least tanks don't deal that kind of damage, especially after Cinderhulk was essentially nerfed to the ground.

Safe routes should never also be the most rewarding, or there is literally no reason to do anything but take the safe route.

I completely agree that an excess of safety is a terrible design choice. However, there is nothing that is safe about being a tank. You're somebody who's literally building to go full Leroy Jenkins into the enemy team. You're the meat-shield of the team. If anybody was to die first on your team, it should be you. How in the world is that a 'safe route?' I might as well say "Yeah, Swain is soooo safe because he builds tanky AP items and never dies." It's not about what you build, it's about why you're building it.

If you propose that tanks not build durability or be able to be durable enough to do their jobs, then we might as well all start playing juggernauts.

Garen DEMACI- Darius -NOXUS!!!

Mordekaiser Hue.

RetroRage964 votes

Your opinion is completely and utterly biased towards carries and bruisers. Have you every delved into the tank world? Played a true tank, for real? Tried to live in this world that is apparently healthy, where most fights are decided of who can land a skillshot or who can mash buttons faster? You don't know what it's like to be a tank, and let me tell you, it is not the safe route. Most tanks have no escape tactics, and involve plunging into the middle of the enemy team and hoping your team will follow up.

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