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Frost Queen's Claim: don't nerf the mana regen

Athenes Lulu··111 votes·4,688 views

The title speaks itself. Mana regeneration is the ONE stat that utility (CDR doesn't count since it's so easy to get on supports), mana spammy caster supports really need. Picking this item over talisman mainly means because they are a utility mage support, where a tiny bit of AP and mana regen is all they need over plain ol' sustain.

We all know that midlaners are abusing it because of how its active is too strong and too spammable, stats are "too good for its cost", and how it's "free" due to bonus gold earned. They can easily afford mana regen, we supports can barely do that, especially adding the fact that we also have to consider defensive options rather than just shit that's catered to mages.

Nerf just the active, increase its cooldown if necessary (90 second CD sounds fair). Bring back the "hitting a minion disables the passive", that nerf does NOTHING to supports since they hardly ever waveclear. Even nerf the AP or the passive gold if that's necessary. Increase the total cost of this item to 2500 gold and that's still fine. Or best case scenario, buff Athene's and Morello's (such as lowering the cost) so FQC doesn't outclass those items. Do not touch the mana regen, it's already harsh enough after removing mana pots from the shop.

102 Comments

Yma S55 votes

Or maybe mid laners are getting it because all the other AP items are stupid expensive?

like whos really at fault here

Big Lincoln8 votes

right it's not the 4 second 60% slow or the gold generation passive that doesn't get disabled

Dominick Destine1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Angry Bards,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=jdmMgNk6,comment-id=00010000,timestamp=2015-12-16T22:52:19.057+0000)

right it's not the 4 second 60% slow or the gold generation passive that doesn't get disabled

60% slow? might want to get your eyes checked.

Big Lincoln2 votes

shit, i read it wrong :(

still, 40% slow for 4 seconds is pretty good

GorillazNtheMyst21 votes

[{quoted}](name=Yma S,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=jdmMgNk6,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2015-12-16T22:48:47.282+0000)

Or maybe mid laners are getting it because all the other AP items are stupid expensive?

like whos really at fault here

Absolutely 100% agree. If they hadn't nerfed every single major AP item by making them too bloody expensive, midlaners wouldn't be this desperate for gold income. Desperate times call for desperate measures. For some reason, Rito wanted to evoke the Great Depression this season or something, just in time for the holidays, you know, like you do.... Kappa.

Llanite2 votes

Even if they didnt raise the cost I'd still buy it.

Yo, free AP and Mp5.

chide da jungler2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Yma S,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=jdmMgNk6,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2015-12-16T22:48:47.282+0000)

Or maybe mid laners are getting it because all the other AP items are stupid expensive?

like whos really at fault here

He is right. When AP mage items are all nerfed hard, then AP support times look really good. Plus that passive is stupid

BakedLotion8 votes

Maybe they shouldn't have made Morello or chalice costs tons of gold then.

NinjaGuy697 votes

The reason mid laners are rushing this item isn't because of its mediocre stats or its spooooooky active. They're rushing it because of its cancerous gold generation passive. Riot was actually on the right track (for once) when they added the unique passive of "killing a minion disables this effect for 12 seconds" to Frost Queen's Claim and Eye of the Watchers. Then the very next day, they revert the change and decide to hit its mana regeneration instead. Seriously? The solution for fixing this abuse case is so simple that it makes me cringe at the fact that some of these people are paid good money by Riot Games considering the horrible job they do at balancing this game.

All that needs to be done is for Riot to once again add the passive that disables the gold generation BUT only if the unit deals damage to a minion or champion while no other allied champions are nearby; the amount of units can be adjusted as Riot sees fit. This not only prevents mid laners from abusing it, but it also allows the item to retain its gold generation benefits when purchased by support players due to the fact that they lane with at least one other champion (the ADC namely) most of the time. I can sympathize with support players when Riot hits their ability to generate gold seeing as how I'm a jungle main - it's no fun to be punished when others abuse the system (i.e. smite being nerfed in early season 5 because top laners abused it to the ends of the Earth).

Koechophe1 votes

I main support. I generally like Bard and Zilean the best (I love playing champions who I feel are challenging). The thing is, I like being able to be a supplimental wave clearer for my team. It's actually pretty common, when playing supports with high mobility, for me to go off, clear a wave quickly, and return to the fight before anything happens. I've found it makes a good contribution to my team, and I don't want that playstyle to get dumpstered. Supports have to roam to ward anyway, if no one else is there, clearing a bit of wave is a good idea. I don't want to see that punished by itemization.

To be frank, the item never used to be a problem, and it didn't have the gold generation restrictions. It's just that the new active is way, WAY overtuned, to the point where it's crowding out other types of supports and other support items. 40% slow for 4 seconds at huge range? Way broken. I'd honestly rather see fqc return to what it used to be, rather than see the gold generation disabled on minion kill.

Pasta Help Desk5 votes

Well riot needs to do something with this item because the current nerf to this item didn't fix the problem. They either need to change some base stats or remove/nerf the active!

OR

Make mage items more appealing for a first buy so mid lanes mages aren't even tempted to steal a support item from the supports.

The Yetii Rider5 votes

Okay, first of all. Supports have so many mana regen items available that it's practically impossible for them to NOT have another mana regen item after FQC. item 3504 item 3174 item 3165 item 3222

The only way FQC is going to be the only mana regen item on a support is if the support goes straight AP and doesn't build CDR items, which makes no sense because 45% CDR is a support's dream.

Secondly, 150% mana regeneration isn't necessary. The problem with the Spellthief line prior to the preseason was always that item 3098 was too weak, no one cared about item 3092 . And really, an AP support shouldn't be buying item 3092 anyway, item 2301 is much better because you don't have to waste an item slot on item 2049 which gives no AP. Now that Frostfang's mana regeneration has been buffed significantly, AP supports are doing just fine. In fact, Sona and Brand are too strong, according to the data, so this stops Riot from having to nerf them directly.

My Waifu Vanilla3 votes

There is no reason to ever go the "Eye of _" route for a support because they are hardly slot effecient items compared to the active items off their gold generator. The Eye items are only "good" in a full build scenario which a support will rarely ever reach and if you really want to go AP you would still go FQC and get full build with the sightstone and then sell the FQC later for your eye item upgrade in order to make room for another item. Yes the Eye item is "cheaper", but staying in lane another 2 minutes or so to get the active equivalent gives such a bigger powerspike that it doesn't matter the cost difference.

21028037DEL16 votes

Found the guy that doesn't main support.

Sorry friend, but supports buy Sightstone + Boots on their first back. Then, they can start building FQC. They have now invested 3350 gold into FQC, SS, and Boots. This also doesn't include the gold they spend buying Pink Wards and any potential red pots one may need. It is now 15 minutes into the game. At this point, no one needs more mana regen items except supports. Thankfully, FQC gave the most mana regen at this point, but not anymore!

Also, rarely at any point in the game does a support need a sixth item. Not since the towers lost all their armor and the game generally spirals out of control by the 25th minute.

Athenes Lulu3 votes

The thing is we don't and really can't rush mana regen mainly because sightstone rush is just that important. Don't forget mana potions are gone from the shop, so a little more-than-usual mana regen is needed to compensate.

A mage mid can easily rush item 3070 or item 3114 on their first back, and half of their mana regen issues are gone. Supports don't and can't afford mana regen until they get item 3096 or item 3098, which is usually AFTER buying item 2049, in which laning phase is past halfway. Also note that unlike midlane mages, supports can't just leave lane anytime because not all ADCs can defend a tower from a 2v1, we all know that leaving botlane unattended means your tower is already half-gone, and that botlane usually stay in lane for extended periods of time. This means they can't just afford mana regen out of the blue IN LANE.

Outside lane, after finishing item 3092? We still have to consider defense as a part of our builds, not just plain ol' mage items. Rushing item 3222 doesn't always happen. Sometimes it is far better to prioritize defensive options such as item 3190 or item 3110 because staying alive to continue providing utility is more important than getting mana regen or scaling items such as item 3504 or even item 3165. In many cases, mage items are usually last, and supports hardly ever get to build their 6th item (or really, 3rd because of Sightstone + gold item + boots). Because of all this, they can't just get more mana regen out of the blue, therefore often making FQC as their only source of mana regen.

You're not wrong, though. But you also have to consider legit utility supports like Lulu and Nami, who don't just build mage items. Only 100% bonus mana regen on supports who also build defensively is NOT enough for anytime during the game.

PenguinOverlord84 votes

I didn't know they stole it. I was really happy to see a new active for the item and seeing it get nerfed because mid laners took it makes me mad. Kind of sucks when champs abuse an item so everyone gets nerfed by it. One bad apple ruins the bunch ;-;

Sire Hippington4 votes

Totally agree. While i do think that it currerntly is a bit to powerfull on life, looking how far the active nerfs reach would be a great first step, and evt nerfing either goldgain, ap or further hitting the active would be a better aproach than takeing 1/3 of it's managreg.

Overall, i think a bigger reason for midlaners useing it is that the other mana items don't feel good atm. Morello's is kinda ok, but the mana it gives often isn't sufficient on many champs, Athene's gives very little offensive power for the gold, and the 25mr also aren't a really good reason to get it. Tear needs to long to stack given how imprtant the earlygame has become. Only roa is pretty good despite the stacking, cause it honestly is nearly guinsoo's levels of broken atm(103% gold efficient at 0 stacks, 169% at full stacks, and even on manaless champs still 131% gold efficient at full stacks), and yet it often isn't sufficient to solve the manaissues many champs have aswell...

YumaS2Astral1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Don Pavoni,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=jdmMgNk6,comment-id=0006,timestamp=2015-12-17T01:15:47.824+0000)

Totally agree. While i do think that it currerntly is a bit to powerfull on life, looking how far the active nerfs reach would be a great first step, and evt nerfing either goldgain, ap or further hitting the active would be a better aproach than takeing 1/3 of it's managreg.

Overall, i think a bigger reason for midlaners useing it is that the other items mana items don't feel good atm. Morello's is kinda ok, but the mana it gives often isn't sufficient on many champs, Athene's gives very little offensive power for the gold, and the 25mr also aren't a really reason to get it. Tear needs to long to stack given how imprtant the earlygame has become. Only roa is pretty good despite the stacking, cause it honestly is nearly guinsoo's levels of broken atm(103% gold efficient at 0 stacks, 169% at full stacks, and even on manaless champs still 131% gold efficient at full stacks), and yet it often isn't sufficient to solve the manaissues many champs have aswell...

To be honest I've started to just buy 2 Doran's Ring on many APs and live with just that amount of mana regeneration for the rest of game.

For example, I do that on Malzahar. I used to buy Rod of Ages for him, but now I completely skip it. Instead I buy Rylai and Liandry for a better powerspike and rely on his E and 2 Doran's Ring to recover mana.

Sire Hippington3 votes

certainly is an approach one can make, but it doesn't fit everyones playstyle, and it leaves you really vulnerable if opponents have map controll and manage to deny your blue, as it only is sufficient mana in lane, but for rotating between lanes and waveclearing/pokeing, or drawnout teamfights with multiple engages/disengages a double dorans will hardly be enough. Also, one lacks cdr that way, and i really value cdr a lot.

Redaga2 votes

item 3165 is aimed to Burst Mages Leblanc , Velkoz ,Brand , etc. so immobile/ Poke mages would be item 3174 , but Riot made it almost 3K gold

brad3 votes

it basically makes people like sona and lulu manaless

as much as i like it, its way too much mana regen

chipndip110 votes

[{quoted}](name=Hi lm Brad,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=jdmMgNk6,comment-id=0003,timestamp=2015-12-16T23:11:47.177+0000)

it basically makes people like sona and lulu manaless

as much as i like it, its way too much mana regen

By the time they have FQC, making them run oom shouldn't be your counter-play strat (cause you're probably done with laning by then or close to it).

TheLittlestLulu27 votes

[{quoted}](name=Hi lm Brad,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=jdmMgNk6,comment-id=0003,timestamp=2015-12-16T23:11:47.177+0000)

it basically makes lulu manaless

http://puu.sh/lYlbn.gif[/img] http://puu.sh/htlYb.gif[/img] http://puu.sh/lYlbn.gif[/img]

brad3 votes

{quoted}

http://puu.sh/lYlbn.gif[/img] http://puu.sh/htlYb.gif[/img] http://puu.sh/lYlbn.gif[/img]

dont pretend like it doesnt

Oshlet22 votes

Nobody's pretending. It doesn't.

1000angrybees2 votes

I actually REALLY like the new FQC, and after this I don't know if I'll have much of a reason to take it over Watcher's now. Why bother with the active and the same regen when I get another item slot?

DJ S0NA2 votes

I don't know why the tribute passive nerf was removed. It was the key for mid laners due to dealing extra damage and recieving extra gold. Now, they nerfed the mana regen, which I completely hate it, but the ghosts active is a fair nerf.

Only thing i'm complaining is the removal of the tribute nerf and the mana regen nerf.

Sire Hippington2 votes

Honestly, as a midlane lulu player, i couldn't care less about the gp10 disabes, unless the duration would be as rediculous as 30sec. I need ~6sec to clear the wave, wait 12 sec, and then i have another 12 sec window in which i need to conect a q+AA to reach the full gold value. It really isn't that hard to play around that with most midlaners, as they all have good waveclear and can get all 3 stacks in a single trade between waves..

My Waifu Vanilla1 votes

The nerf to the mana regeneration or active are indeed the best hits since as you said, hitting the gold gen won't do much since most mages can easily play around the time frame making that nerf a waste of a patch. Also hitting other stats will also hit the support users who are doing fairly well with the item as well (who happen to all be the strongest supports atm since faster games always make the mage-esque supports hold onto their bully nature for a bigger percentage of the game).

Sire Hippington2 votes

yes, but i do think that the best solution would be a nerf to the active, cause hinestly it's rediulously powerfull if used right, and a buff to the alternatives. With out the ms, the coin items feel shallow, i just can't find a reason for my self to pick it over spellthive or relic shield. And morello's/athene's are not really great item. The only reason they always have been rushed midlane is because they are the **only **choices for cdr+manareg, two stats you want to auquire as fast as possible, especially the mana sustain. And if it still needs nerfs after than, i think either lowering the total goldgain or reduceing the ap might be better options than takeing the manareg.

bakenhunter2 votes

Also it really is the only option for ap supports, except maybe Soraka, But coin really doesn't have too much going for it right now. Also the fact that after an entire ap itemization change and a slight change to other ap items mages really only have two mana regen items, and until riot gives mages a better option they will take item 3092 because there really isn't much else. But really the nerf to mana regan would be a nerf more so to an entire subclass of support that really seems to have trouble staying relevant both in preseason and in most of season 5, and that idea makes me sad

chipndip12 votes

If anything, they should buff Athene's, Morello's, and Crucible to have 150% mana regen and remove mana font for something else.

Daxterr2 votes

I'm surprised more people aren't bitching about the active; it's obnoxious and better than most abilities in the game.

Athenes Lulu6 votes

The active CD is way too low, and the slow is too powerful. When Twin Shadows still existed, it has a 120 second CD active, which is fair.

The nerf on that part alone was rather necessary.

Dominick Destine2 votes

Wow they're completely gutting it.

Yesterday I was fine with the nerf to the gold generation because it doesn't really affect supports (Who prioritizes CS on support anyway?) but now they're outright destroying it. GG RIOT.

Athenes Lulu3 votes

Trust me, when it comes to support balance, Rito screws it up.

KarKzz2 votes

Junglers say hi. We can't have nice things either :(

TheProAndrew2 votes

Sejuani :( item 1401

Athenes Lulu2 votes

Join the club. We have t-shirts.

I mean, babysitters gets shit in the first place after all :(

A Liberal4 votes

Wasn't the whole reason for the cs disable so that people in other lanes COULDN'T get good efficiency out of it? OFC the minute I finally learn how to play with early game mana regen over pots, they nerf the shit out of the item I was using.

Rito why do you hate supports ;-;

1374341 votes

It should be noted that the passive tribute nerf was reverted when they nerfed the mana regen and changed the active to have scaling slows based on distance ghost traveled.

Athenes Lulu2 votes

The passive tribute nerf doesn't affect supports, if at all. It's more of a nerf aimed at midlaners, who actually farm and waveclear.

Bârd2 votes

Mana regeneration is the ONE stat that utility, mana spammy caster supports they really need.

Imma just ignore the grammar mistake.

Also, CDR is another, even more important stat for that kind of champion.

Athenes Lulu3 votes

The thing is supports can get CDR quite easily, so I'm not too concerned about it.

######Also it was 'cause I was typing that thread on my phone, but I fixed it, thanks :^>

Rıots Bad Client2 votes

I thought the ONLY reason why people actually get the FQC was for the 10% cdr for thoses who want the 45% cdr(while getting ap). The mana regen and active were just a bonus.

I know nothing :B

Ale non è male2 votes

Please DON'T nerf the active. Frost Queen has becomed the go to item for other roles too because people suddenly have recognized how good was the passive of the old Twin Shadows, and give to this item the passive to make it be more relevant was EXACTLY the reason why a good niche item like Twin Shadows was eliminated

Hit especially mana regen or eventually the AP would eventually be the way to go (but mana regen is better) to take it away from midlaners, if you think FQC is really that gamebreaking - and imho the thing is more its actual super good cost efficiency among AP item, if the price rebalance on AP item is done midlaner wouldn't pick FQC anymore, it is not the item who is broken actually -

HolyWarsPunish2 votes

Riot is just blatantly nerf anything ap really... while letting broken items like botrk and guinsoos go on... this is a spit in our faces fucking riot.

If i want to play a broken auto burst type game ill go play WoW

Koechophe1 votes

Im sorry, but to say they ignored BoTRK is just flat out wrong. That item got nerfed REALLY hard at the preseason. Passive burn from 8 => 6%, cost increased a lot... I agree guinsinoos is broken, but BoTRK actually seems pretty balanced atm.

53872273_DEL1 votes

or make it avalible for one person.

Athenes Lulu1 votes

What if the midlaner got FQC first?

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