Look, I know us support mains make up a disproportionately low number of players but...

SpecterVonBaren··28 votes·1,855 views

I really think people need to be talking about this change on the PBE, because this does in fact influence the rest of the League population.

 Quick explanation of change
  •     Sightstone and all of its upgrades will be removed from the store.
    
  •     Support items will gain Sightstone’s active as their quest reward.
    
  •     Support Tier 3 items now build out of Tier 2 and a Ruby Crystal, and give you the same stats as their respective line’s “Eye of the __” upgraded Sightstone on live.
    
  •     For more context, read below. I’ll go through the goals and reasons behind these changes, and then give the complete changelist.
    
  •     NOTE: Current names and icons for Tier 3 are temporary. We’ll have new names and icons for all three lines for Tier 2 after quest completion, and Tier 3 both pre and post quest completion. 
    

    Goals of Change

  •     The main drive behind these changes is that we want supports to be more free to pursue their own build paths. Without a mandatory 800 gold purchase in the early game, Supports will be able to make more choices and have more agency over how their power is expressed. We will try to keep Sightstone timings and general support economy to be close to their live values.
    
  •     One thing we’ve learned from Ardent Censer over the summer is that Support players greatly appreciated the ability to rush impactful items - they were able to feel like a bigger participant in the game. We’ve also learned that the game still functions well without a Sightstone rush - in other words, the game doesn’t break down from a lack of early vision.
    
  •     We would still like Sightstone times to be a reflection of the support player’s skill, so we are putting it on the quest reward rather than just giving it out at a specific game time. We found that for most players, the existing quest rewards were very low satisfaction relative to their power level. We hope that gaining this active is a much more noticeable and satisfying reward.
    
  •     Unfortunately, having an active as the quest reward requires us to remove the active branches of the item chains - Frost Queen’s Claim, Face of the Mountain, and Talisman of Ascension. Some of the actives provided important options, and so we’ll be looking at ways to bring Frost Queen’s Claim and Talisman of Ascension back in modified forms. Face of the Mountain’s active will likely not return in the immediate future. 
    

    More Detailed Changelist:

  • Sightstone and Ruby Sightstone have been removed from the store.

  •     The quest reward from all three gold income item lines is changed to grant Sightstone’s active.
    
  •     You will still be required to upgrade to Tier 2 to finish your quest.
    
  •     Quest reward thresholds are reduced to 500 gold.
    
  •     Your Tier 3 item will build out of your Tier 2 item and a Ruby Crystal, and will give you the same stats as an upgraded Sightstone on live. There is no longer a branching path to Tier 3 - the active variants of the items have been removed.
    
  •     Upon quest completion, your Tier 2 item will have a maximum of 3 wards between trips to the store. Upgrading to Tier 3 will give you a maximum of 4 wards stored. 
    

    Timing and Future Work

  •     We expect these changes will go out in 8.2, but they might be delayed a patch or two if we hit bugs or snags with implementation..
    
  •     We’re still going to be ironing out some details - whether you have to return to the store to stock up on your first ward charges, around what time do we want the rewards to activate, whether this makes Spellthief’s line too risky (as you can get locked out of income generation if laning phase ends early), things like that. We will also be closely monitoring poaching by other laners and junglers. 
    

This is a seriously huge change to the entire game.

  1. Supports will now be able to buy an item in the lanning phase that can give them a powerspike in terms of their effectiveness.

  2. The items a support builds will no longer need to be so focused on teamwide utility since they can potentially buy one before they group with the rest of the team.

  3. The could potentially cause ADC's to build Relic Shield even more, at least in pro play, since it will now give vision.

  4. Early vision will go down even more, leading to an increase in jungler power in the early game.

These and much more possibilities are in our future with this change, people need to start talking about this.

62 Comments

Ahristocats19 votes

i know right? as a support main i immediatly saw the impact of those changes in itemization, but it's k cuz apparently the support role isn't being buffed, they lost 150 hp :^)

"toplane is lacking of impact" "who? buff supports they need to solo carry games" Ziggs "but bot lane is already deciding the game..." "buff supports it's an order"Ziggs

SpecterVonBaren9 votes

Honestly, this change will probably have a far larger impact on the game than the removal of the old runes.

Edit: Don't know why I was downvoted for this... I'm not saying it's a good or bad thing, just that it's impactful, runes/masteries causing havoc isn't new, supports being able to buy an item that will directly impact their lane performance IS.

ChaddyFantome13 votes

_ We found that for most players, the existing quest rewards were very low satisfaction relative to their power level. We hope that gaining this active is a much more noticeable and satisfying reward._

No way Riot legitimately believes this. This is a boldfaced lie and I legitimately feel insulted that they would even dare have this shlock shoved down my throat while expecting me to smile with them about it.

In what universe do people not find the MS boost and the regen and Shields from support quests not fun or badass? I dare say they were some of the highlights of the role since they were exclusive buffs for the quests.

And they have the audacity to insinuate people would rather just have the permission to ward as a reward instead?!?! Are they living in one of Zoe 's sleepy trouble bubbles?!

SpecterVonBaren1 votes

Do you have evidence to support this?

ScurryLizard10 votes

{quoted}

Do you have evidence to support this?

The current quest rewards feel incredibly impactful. An in-combat regening shield, a burst of MS to chase or escape with, a MS boost to allies running to me as an enchanter? That shit was necessary in some games.

That's not even mentioning the T3 actives. Frost queen was great for getting vision in unsafe areas, or for chasing down out of position squishies. Talisman functioned as a great engage or escape tool for a team with limited mobility. Face of the mountain provides an amazing shield that I saved so many teammates with.

Removing these things is going to make the entire role unrewarding and flat out boring. There will be nothing unique to it and all the interesting things we had before are just being removed for absolutely no reason. In this meta sightstone doesn't need to be rushed by supports. Zombie ward will make standard trinkets effective so supports can build other items already.

This is just going to hurt the role and make it even less impactful. All it's going to be now is ADC+babysitter. And for what? Even less impact when we're behind? What exactly does Riot expect from this. They say they want more build diversity while removing our options for useful items. In the hands of good players, those T3 actives do more for the team than a sightstone can.

SpecterVonBaren5 votes

No, you misunderstand, I'm asking if you have any proof that the majority of players have the same view as you.

ChaddyFantome2 votes

{quoted}

Do you have evidence to support this?

I don't think it is hard to see based on fan feedback that this is the case, but for the sake of argument, lets say that it is true and players don't care about the current support quest buffs, let's pretend.

I ask you, who would take "permission to ward" over them instead? Who? Because that is the crux of my problem here.

SpecterVonBaren1 votes

I don't particularly care about that right now, all I care about with ScurryLizard is if they have any actual evidence to support their claim that the quest rewards were not, as Riot said, "found that for most players, the existing quest rewards were very low satisfaction relative to their power level" aside from ScurryLizard saying they did.

ScurryLizard1 votes

{quoted}

I don't particularly care about that right now, all I care about with ScurryLizard is if they have any actual evidence to support their claim that the quest rewards were not, as Riot said, "found that for most players, the existing quest rewards were very low satisfaction relative to their power level" aside from ScurryLizard saying they did.

I guess ignorance is bliss. If you can't see that from me, the other commentators, and the fact that at least 5 other threads like this are floating around, I don't think there's any hope for you.

SpecterVonBaren1 votes

All of which is not facts nor is it indicative of the majority of the player base. Given that I've seen people whine about anything that gets taken away regardless of whether they used it or not or actually cared, I need something better than just five threads on an internet board to believe you have actual data on this.

Cavesloth11 votes

They claim to want diversity, but then they throw out crap like this to decrease diversity.

SpecterVonBaren1 votes

I don't really see how this increases or decreases diversity in champions, or do you mean in terms of itemization?

Cavesloth2 votes

{quoted}

I don't really see how this increases or decreases diversity in champions, or do you mean in terms of itemization?

Build diversity, so yes, that's what I meant.

SpecterVonBaren3 votes

How is removing one required item going to cause a loss of build diversity? Us supports will now have an extra item slot over all and we'll also be able to build something that will help us in lane instead of always having to default to items that effect a team as a whole as our first items all the time. This increases build diversity.

Glue Connoisseur6 votes

You are not removing one required item. The item is being consolidated into the gold item and the Active Path of the gold items will be removed, as well as the removal of Ruby Sight Stone (goodbye Item CDR).

These changes will not allow me to have the freedom of choosing the Active path or the Eye path with the gold items. With these changes, I will only have one path I can choose.

In some games, I may need that active shield from Face of the Mountain to shield my ADC that is being constantly targeted (with, of course, purchasing a Locket). Other times it is safe for me to just build the Eye version and just rely on Locket for Shields since the other team may be very passive. Counts on the game. I lose the ability to make those choices. With these changes I can only build Locket for Shields. So my team shielding power drops.

This is what item diversity is: the freedom to chose a build to fit the team and to fit the situation.

Just because it we get an extra slot, doesn't mean we get a more diverse build. We may have more options to build, but by the time you get to use that extra slot, the game is over anyway. I can't think of a game where I had all slots filled as a support (with the mandatory Sightstone and gold item) with final builds and the games wasn't 45+ minutes. If the game is 20-30 minutes, I still don't have all of my slots filled with final items... usually I have an empty slot or something very cheap like cloth armor or something.

PokladnicaZla3 votes

We lose actives on gold items in favour of gaining on different items. You could now go as a tanky support or enchanter annd buy those ghost on a new item,you could go as tank support or mage support and buy the AoE from ToA. This will actually increase the item choice from supports later in the game.

I'm actually looking forward to this change.

Glue Connoisseur6 votes

This doesn't actually give you more choices. Instead it forces you to make additional purchases to try to hit the build style you could before. Forcing someone to purchase another item is not giving someone more choices.

Here is an example: Let's assume that I am playing Blitzcrank support. Counting on the team, I may need to go tank and shield type itemization. Let's assume that I have to build that way.

Currently, I can chose to either:

  1. Get FotM and a Sightstone, eat up two slots but get an active shield
  2. Go the Eye path, and lose the shield active, but consume only one slot

Based on how my team is behaving and how the enemy is behaving, I will chose option 1 or 2. Assuming the enemy is being aggressive and they are taking risks, I will build option 1. Of course, I am in low MMR, so me trying the Eye path on anything is too risky for me at the moment. I do understand that much better players will choose the Eye path.

That leaves me with three slots to play with (1 slot is gold, 1 slot is Sightstone, 1 slot is boots) So, the 4ith item will be Locket, the other two will be based on if we are behind or ahead. With at least two shielding items, I can cover carries some on top of doing whatever peeling or pulling I do. By the time I get to the Locket stage, we are already past mid game and heading to end. I will be lucky at this point to even finish my 5th item by the time the game ends.

Now if I am in the same situation with these proposed changes, I can only choose option 2. That means that I have to completely find an alternative to the lost active shield from FotM. As stated above, Riot will not be implementing the FoTM shield on another item. It will cease to exist. So it will be Locket + something else (maybe the passive from Frozen Heart will have to suffice).

As I have stated above, I rarely get to even build a 5th item, sometimes my boots aren't even upgraded by the time the game ends (counting on the game, I will have to rush another item). What good is that extra slot when I can't even get to the point to build an item in the open slot I have?

I am glad you are looking forward to the changes. I am not. The way I am seeing this proposed change is nothing more than a band-aid solution for autofilled supports (and some support mains) not purchasing a Sightstone and/or putting down wards. I am assuming that Riot believes that if the gold item is the warding item, the non-warding supports will ward. If they don't do it now, they won't do it when these changes go through. I guarantee within the first day there will be a post on the forums people complaining about supports still not warding.

SpecterVonBaren2 votes

No, that's not how this works. You are free'd up from one of two choices to one of several choices, you don't want to upgrade the new gold gen item? Then don't, buy something else, buy item 3504 or item 3060 or item 3190 or item 3222 or item 3109 or item 3107 or item 3800 or item 3050 or the old Twin Shadows if they bring it back or the new item 3069.

Glue Connoisseur2 votes

Yes, this is how this works.

You currently get two default choices:

  1. Active path gold item and Sightstone, have 4 "open" slots
  2. Eye path gold item and 5 "open" slots

Riot is removing default choice 1 and forcing the playerbase to only have default choice 2 with some modifications (getting wards at Tier 2 instead of Final Tier).

I can already skip not finalizing the gold item and skip to build any of those other items you have shown above. I do that currently to meet the needs of the team to handle the current situation. What your telling me isn't something that can only be done post Support item changes.

SpecterVonBaren1 votes

What you're describing is not a loss of choices, because what you choose to buy second can be any number of things now.

You fail to understand what having an open slot earlier in the game means. Why do you see item 3107 and item 3190 built all the time, usually as a first item after gold gen item, boots and sighstone? Because by the time a support can buy an item outside of boots, sighstone, and gold gen item, you've hit mid game and you need to prioritize items with teamwide utility based around being the best for mid and late game.

With this change us support players can start buying items to help us deal with unique situations in lane rather than always focusing our builds on the mid and late game.

nyakasgoods10 votes

Heyyyyy it'd be pretty cool to not make early gank junglers stronger than they already are.

AMYS GRAVE10 votes

Supports will now be able to buy an item in the lanning phase that can give themtheir ADC a powerspike in terms of their effectiveness.

FTFY

SpecterVonBaren3 votes

I don't see how this is a fix since it's implied by the fact that my job is to empower and protect my ADC.

Lord of Math8 votes

Congratulations for making the game even more snowball reliant. I have mixed feelings about this change. On the one hand it will make playing Mordekaiser in the botlane somewhat simpler, for he gets away with relic shield starts. If they time the gold quest properly, then they will make it even harder for a behind support to get their vision out there for the world. Perhaps instead of the quests giving the warding active, the quest upgrades it. For instance item 3301 item 3303 item 3302 will grant a single charge of warding, and at 400 gold it gives 2 ward charges once in tier 2 of course. Then, the 600 gold gives three, and 800 gold and tier three give you four.

SpecterVonBaren1 votes

It would have to be at least the second upgrade, otherwise everyone in the LCS would start with a gold gen item so they can have that much more vision on the map, thus leading to more item poaching.

Lord of Math2 votes

{quoted}

It would have to be at least the second upgrade, otherwise everyone in the LCS would start with a gold gen item so they can have that much more vision on the map, thus leading to more item poaching.

That should still be fine even if we made it a second tier only.

Silverjust1 votes

Or it could place a sightstone in your inventory instead of replacing the active

Lord of Math1 votes

{quoted}

Or it could place a sightstone in your inventory instead of replacing the active

What if the item 3301 line gave a ward in your inventory after a couple coin gatherings, and 3 item 3303 procs grnts a ward? and 2 item 3302 procs?

Silverjust1 votes

Interesting Idea, but similar to sightstone it would block an inventory slot in lategame to be able to ward. And sightstone/rubysightstone gives more hp than an empty slot but it could place charges into sightstone

Lord of Math1 votes

{quoted}

Interesting Idea, but similar to sightstone it would block an inventory slot in lategame to be able to ward. And sightstone/rubysightstone gives more hp than an empty slot but it could place charges into sightstone

Maybe wards can interact with the trinket slot and you can thus choose between wards and sweepers and the procs of the items give you a charge of the trinketitem 3361 item 3341 The exact numbers could be worked out, but I think that it would make late game even more powerful for supports and perhaps even help along a meta shifting.

Silverjust1 votes

I dont understand, how would you place wards and clear wards in lategame? I still want to be able to do this

redniwediS5 votes

I remember back when support items were first added. It was crazy how supports were going to be able to afford items instead of just buying a full inventory of green and pink wards!

I liked that old update, but afterward I did kind of miss being able to solo ward half the jungle all at once. I'm sure I'll like this coming update too, but let's not forget what we're sacrificing for it.

RogueWill5 votes

isn't this an indirect buff to LeeSin and the other junglers that synergism with item 3711 ? They will still have early access to wards while the rest won't

SpecterVonBaren4 votes

I don't see how it specifically buffs Lee Sin over other early gankers, though I do agree this could make the current problem of Jungler's having too much impact become even worse.

RogueWill1 votes

Lee sin thanks to his ward hop ability benefits from getting item 3711 it goes well with him for the added bonus of the ward hoping. Other early junglers might want to go for item 3706 for extra damage. Usually you want item 3341 over item 3340 anyway so trackers don't to much good to you.

SpecterVonBaren1 votes

But why would Lee build one of the gold gen items?

RogueWill1 votes

He will not. He will get item 3711. The lack of sighstone on the support will make ganking easing for him and he still will have wards earlier than everyone else, so he can ward bot for his teamates, without much of a tradeoff since you build trackers on lee sin to ward hop

Sihari3 votes

I will really miss the item cdr fromitem 2045 and the quest reward from item 3098 if that change goes live... q.q

Lord Phazanor 1 votes

{quoted}

I will really miss the item cdr fromitem 2045 and the quest reward from item 3098 if that change goes live... q.q

I think you'll still have the item cdr if you upgrade your support item to level 3.
"Your Tier 3 item will build out of your Tier 2 item and a Ruby Crystal, and will give you the same stats as an upgraded Sightstone on live. There is no longer a branching path to Tier 3 - the active variants of the items have been removed."
The wording is weird though, so not sure.

Daedric Etwahl6 votes

No, the item CDR is going away too. Your T3 support item now builds out of your T2 and a Ruby Crystal instead of a full Sightstone

Lord Phazanor 2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Daedric Etwahl,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=jdEfc3tq,comment-id=000300010000,timestamp=2018-01-10T17:00:12.703+0000)

No, the item CDR is going away too. Your T3 support item now builds out of your T2 and a Ruby Crystal instead of a full Sightstone

Ah crap. Sorry for misinforming then :/ The wording made me think the item cdr would stay :'(

Daddy Ants2 votes

{quoted}

I will really miss the item cdr fromitem 2045 and the quest reward from item 3098 if that change goes live... q.q

Yeah, I'll miss that too.

The Item CDR I mean.

TsunamiSS2 votes

ADC main here looking for some honest feedback. This frees up 800g for a support to theoretically purchase more damage items, right? In other words, supports are already chunking a third of my health bar at a time with one to two abilities (Nami, Bard, Leona, and Alistar come to mind in recent games, not to mention the Xeraths that have been floating around). This will increase support damage, decrease the ADC's already diminished agency in the lane, and further the snowball meta overall.

Am I looking at this the wrong way?

AMYS GRAVE1 votes

You pretty much got it.

The other big difference is you wont see ganks coming because supports wont have sightstone as early.

Lord of Math1 votes

{quoted}

ADC main here looking for some honest feedback. This frees up 800g for a support to theoretically purchase more damage items, right? In other words, supports are already chunking a third of my health bar at a time with one to two abilities (Nami, Bard, Leona, and Alistar come to mind in recent games, not to mention the Xeraths that have been floating around). This will increase support damage, decrease the ADC's already diminished agency in the lane, and further the snowball meta overall.

Am I looking at this the wrong way?

I was speaking about it on a similar manner. Although if the enemy support buys damage, then your Soraka can just buy forbidden Idol and just sustain you through lane. And you sound like you think supports should not make plays at all. If supports did not deal damage, then health bars would have to be nerfed on champs in the botlane, or adc would need more dmg. Both of which would contribute more to the snowball meta than 800 gold on a support.

DontTouchMyBall2 votes

Snowballing needs to be addressed separetely from these changes, No way we'll keep paying the same fee everygame. This does had more diversity to the support role. It's like finally being free from taxes!

Im sad for the loss of the items but this is the greater good.

SciFi Scrivener2 votes

I see this as a major win for support mains. We can now focus on being more effective in lane and combat, instead of just being a ward factory. Don't get me wrong, I enjoy my role as vision creator and ward stomper, and will continue to do this, but it's nice to know I can grab another item earlier to either help my sustainability in lane or to boost my damage out put.

Thank you Riot, this is another great improvement to the game. Keep up the good work!! [slayer-pantheon-thumbs]

KlydeFrog1 votes

becuase no one likes to supp its boring

Friendly Ram1 votes

I still want my passive QQ.

ChiTenshi1 votes

I feel like this change allows unorthodox picks to be more viable.

More from Gameplay

More by SpecterVonBaren