Senna is not a support, no matter what Riot says.

Eternal Torment··12 votes·2,322 views

She is completely different from Pyke because she can ACTUALLY work as a solo laner due to the tools her kit gives.

Main reason is her Q. STUPIDLY large Range, equally stupid hitbox, and it heals herself no matter what, as long as it's used. The latter part in particular is why nobody will ever play senna as a support. It's too much free power. ALL supports have exactly one thing in common: Defensive choices are not global. Senna is quite literally the first support who can sustain both herself AND her laner without any conditioning whatsoever. Soraka for example has her own heal being over time, incredibly small, and can be accidentally passed on to someone else through her main healing Ability. Nami has to be in the heat of the battle for the bounce to hit her and by then it's much weaker than the main healing was. Taric has insanely high manacosts earlygame and can't affort to use it more than once every half minute or so earlygame and if he does spam it it becomes much weaker due to the stacking mechanic. Senna is the first support who's heal can cover the entire team that isn't somehow heavily gated behind skillful use.

Her Q heal should either be massively conditioned to fit the support role (Example, only heals her as well if she hits both an ally AND an enemy) or it should be removed entirely.

That and it shouldn't proc Onhit effects because of Klepto. So many people I have seen play Klepto Senna because it's even more abusable than Ezreal, and I speak in matter of facts if I say that NOBODY thought that could be intentionally possible. Well, how it stings to be wrong.

Her Q, as is, is an ability you'd actually expect on a modern Juggernaut. Juggernaut-Abilities on ranged Champions has never, in all the 10 years, ever worked. Every time self-sustain on an ADC became problematic it was immediately nerfed (See BORK Lucian Meta for examples) because of how much it upsets the meta and it's balance.

After Lucian, Draven and Vayne last season you'd seriously think Riot learned not to give ADC's too much free sustain. Like, our expectations were low but holy fuck.

14 Comments

50CaliberHecate8 votes

I just think her Q shouldn't heal her as well.

boricCentaur12 votes

You know I agree I don't even think she in need of nerfs but it just looks dumb and doesn't make sense from a game play point of view.

The q heals teams that got hit my it she didn't she casted the ability so it didn't hit her. It doesn't look like she is getting healed it looks like she is getting hp from nothing.

TwitchInMyPants1 votes

{quoted}

I just think her Q shouldn't heal her as well.

She has terrible AS though, its not like Lifesteal would be viable on her at all. At most she takes the rune for it but her builds focus on CDR, Crit and Lethality. She kind of needs access to a self heal.

I think having a reduced heal makes sense if she needs a balance pass, that way the heal function is support focused rather than 1v1 focused.

Bârd5 votes
  1. Nope. She's one of the squishiest champions in the game, is extremely immobile, and gains a pitiful amount of mist from souls if she's last hitting. The only way for her to get enough souls to be relevant later on is if she constantly trades, which (given her status as an immobile squishy) means she just dies.
  2. Nope. Her Q range is super short for primary targets, meaning using it like that will most likely get you killed. Also, only the healing hitbox is wide. The damage hitbox is thin as hell.
  3. There is a condition. If she's using her Q to heal, she's probably not using it to do damage to her lane opponent due to how small the damage hitbox is, and even if you pull that off you sure as hell aren't going to get a soul off of them. This will also push the lane, which is a death sentence for somebody as immobile and squishy as Senna.
  4. I kinda see where you're coming from with Nami. The other two are just flat out wrong.
  5. Again, it is conditional.
  6. Removing on hit triggers from Senna's Q would ruin the champion entirely.
  7. Name one juggernaut who wants to stand behind their teammates and heal them.
  8. Senna is not an ADC. ADC Senna is cheesy as fuck and is extremely weak if the enemy team has anybody with mobility, ranged CC, or burst damage.
  9. Sustain ADC's only get nerfed when they're broken as fuck (Warlords bloodlust, Targons Abuse).

But no, Senna uses AUTO ATTACKS which are TARGETED and have NO COUNTERPLAY!!!!!!

SHE ALSO HAS A GLOBAL ULT AND PERCENTAGE HEALTH DAMAGE SO SHE MUST BE OP!

Eternal Torment3 votes

{quoted}

  1. Nope. She's one of the squishiest champions in the game, is extremely immobile, and gains a pitiful amount of mist from souls if she's last hitting. The only way for her to get enough souls to be relevant later on is if she constantly trades, which (given her status as an immobile squishy) means she just dies.
  2. Nope. Her Q range is super short for primary targets, meaning using it like that will most likely get you killed. Also, only the healing hitbox is wide. The damage hitbox is thin as hell.
  3. There is a condition. If she's using her Q to heal, she's probably not using it to do damage to her lane opponent due to how small the damage hitbox is, and even if you pull that off you sure as hell aren't going to get a soul off of them. This will also push the lane, which is a death sentence for somebody as immobile and squishy as Senna.
  4. I kinda see where you're coming from with Nami. The other two are just flat out wrong.
  5. Again, it is conditional.
  6. Removing on hit triggers from Senna's Q would ruin the champion entirely.
  7. Name one juggernaut who wants to stand behind their teammates and heal them.
  8. Senna is not an ADC. ADC Senna is cheesy as fuck and is extremely weak if the enemy team has anybody with mobility, ranged CC, or burst damage.
  9. Sustain ADC's only get nerfed when they're broken as fuck (Warlords bloodlust, Targons Abuse).

But no, Senna uses AUTO ATTACKS which are TARGETED and have NO COUNTERPLAY!!!!!!

SHE ALSO HAS A GLOBAL ULT AND PERCENTAGE HEALTH DAMAGE SO SHE MUST BE OP!

  1. Sona is also THE Squishiest champ in the entire game without items and this is the first season where she didn't become an outstanding problem. Being squishy doesn't automate death, that's a very lame apologist excuse to say a champion's overpowered state is okay.
  2. Even with a rather thin damaging part, the range in length is absurd. You can stay a good standart ranged AA distance away from the back minions and if she hits the front minions at max range she can still hit you.
  3. Or maybe she's...idk...going for short trades? Goes in Q-AA backs away again. Healed up any damage from the enemy trade and got her chunk of damage done. Kind of precisely the reason this is an issue.
  4. With Soraka I was mistaken that her Q heal over time doesn't get lost when she uses her W, never picked that up. But you still get the point. It's extremely small, over time, and a flat, finite amount. Taric's Ability actually takes considerably longer than I first thought. Half a minute would be just for a lvl 2 Q. At lvl 5 the charge time for all 5 build-ups, without any CDR or the Passive, becomes a whopping 75 seconds. So if he is ever anyhow pushed away from a creep wave or can't get any melee trades, he does legitimatedly sit there for an entire minute and then some for one big heal.
  5. The only condition is that she uses it. The Onhit procs are a very abuseable bonus, again, pointing at Klepto. Ezreal had pretty much THE SAME arguments and look where it got him.
  6. Speaking of 5. no it wouldn't. All it would do is prevent her from abusing Klepto, which again is the key argument here.
  7. Never said the champion is designed like a juggernaut. Feeble strawman argument. I said the ABILITY is designed like one thanks to the self-heal. Short-trade moderate damage high healing low cooldown Ability. That's pretty much a summary of a Darius Q.
  8. Her W Stealth literally makes her untradeable for ANYONE with point and click. There's literally only one assassin who can do jack against her and that's fizz because fizz is a fucknugget to any bot lane champs. Almost everyone plays Senna as the adc instead of the support. Riot says she's a support, not an adc, playerbase says fuck you, she's an adc.
  9. Precisely the issue here. Her self-heal is broken. Every champion who can maintain an above 50% winrate on release has been notoriously known to be broken. Akali and Zoe are your two most recent and prominent examples, one of whom is still a problem after a whole year.

That last part was just blatant mock that serves no purpose other than demonstrate derailing and strawman-ing. If your arguments are to hold any legitimate value, refrain from being an over-arrogant jerk with these kinda comments. they only beg to backfire.

Illabethe5 votes

lmfao. If you think Nami has to be in the heat of anything to heal herself, you really don't know how to play Nami. If you think Soraka doesn't have a large heal to self, you've also obviously never played Soraka.

VoidThicc1 votes

She can only heal one person, someone OR herself, unless she's close to an enemy champion for the bounce, so his argument is actually valid.

Illabethe1 votes

Depends on how you use W, what skills are up, and what followthrough you give it.

You have several options with Nami W:

Target enemy, hope to bounce back to self, and bounce back to an enemy. Target self within 725 Range (exceeding most auto attacks), bounce off an enemy, and fizzle, of if you have an aggressive adc like Vayne, bounce back on them. Target ally aggressive adc, bounce off an enemy, and try to pick up the return bounce on Nami.

There is a solution for every situation to make W more efficient than any sort of risk.

If you feel you need to heal yourself as Nami, make sure you do it in 725 range, start the bounce off animation, and just run away with impunity. There are VERY FEW skills that can actually punish a Nami healing herself.

If you're trying to be an offensive poker, bait out attacks by harassing a support/ADC with E charged autos on either you or your ally, and adjust accordingly to double bounce THEM.

I really don't think you understand Nami's ranges and capabilities if you think she has to be in the heat. 725 Range means that if you are trying to tie it with an auto attack, all you have to do to hit 3 times is to walk up behind minions, but close enough to auto, W > Auto > Q, and then back off. Her auto attack range is 550, and her move speed on being buffed makes her the king (queen) of early game peel.

And yes; I can triple Tap a Senna while she is bubbled. takes me .7 seconds after the bubble to > W > Auto > run out, and she doesn't get off a single auto attack.

She's not like other 550 rangers whose kits force them to STAY. She has a perma Dash in her passive, which is why as supports, on average, even though she has the lowest starting HP in the game, she STILL has one of the lowest death per game averages, even though this is a damage meta. Mobility is a tyrant, and if you don't embrace it, the players will walk all over you.

https://u.gg/lol/combat/?role=support Sort by deaths. #4, with only Zilean Yuumi Lulu beating her in survivability. Two of those are self explanatory as to why as well. (one is untouchable as long as adc is alive; one actually is a mobile Guardian Angel). I'd surmise the only reason Lulu is up there is because many Lulus Pix onto a minion or other champion and poke remotely, playing the safe game, and not fully utilizing her kit.

VoidThicc1 votes

I know that, and OP likely does too. Point of this was that Nami's Ability is conditioned to have an enemy/two enemies near enough for it's use to be fully shown, which can translate to being in a fight, even just for the poke. Point of the Argument was that OP Probably does know what he's talking about, if only to a degree, so basically saying he doesn't know anything feels like it's just being thrown around as a way to say "Shut up because I said so"

Illabethe1 votes

If she/he knows it they are lying about it in their post, because they are sensationalizing that she has to get poked to use her poke. She doesn't most of the time. Even at high elo, you can still get off 2 hit procs in a poke volley.

He's arguing that Senna's range and heals make supports inconsequential. Again..... not true.

Direct quotes:

Defensive choices are not global. False. I cited examples. Senna is quite literally the first support who can sustain both herself AND her laner without any conditioning whatsoever. Again...... False. Nami heals without conditions. The only question is how much the enemy and allies cooperate with her. The same could be said for Senna. Will the opponent line up nicely behind a minion line to get Poked by Q? Will your ally get in front of you and completely line up with the opponent, so you heal one, and damage the other? (Seems to me like Nami is the perfect counterargument, because placement plays a HUGE role in both champion's ability to both maximize heals and damage)

Soraka has three DIFFERENT heals, and although all of them have different conditions, only ONE of them has a NEGATIVE condition. Q is self sufficient, has a strong heal, that the OP is writing off as weak.

The only negative is her W costs HP, but it's a direct heal, with no delay, on a low cooldown. R is a no condition HUGE heal Global.

Nami has to be in the heat of the battle for the bounce to hit her and by then it's much weaker than the main healing was.

Again..... WRONG. She can be the primary target. Also, any AP above 200 AP the heals are not weaker; they are greater by magnitudes. As I said, I don't consider 725 range + a brief movement speed steroid to be "In the heat of battle" either.

Senna is the first support who's heal can cover the entire team that isn't somehow heavily gated behind skillful use.

I'd argue that if Senna heals an entire team, she is using her heal skillfully. Also, False. Soraka's ult can nearly full HP a team with relatively no skill at all. Janna's ult can disengage a fight and heal an entire team with relatively low skill.

That and it shouldn't proc Onhit effects because of Klepto. So many people I have seen play Klepto Senna because it's even more abusable than Ezreal, and I speak in matter of facts if I say that NOBODY thought that could be intentionally possible. Well, how it stings to be wrong.

He doesn't even realize next patch Klepto is GONE.

MagicFlyingLlama4 votes

Soraka for example has her own heal being over time, incredibly small, and can be accidentally passed on to someone else through her main healing Ability.

Soraka keeps it, the healed target gets a fresh copy. The whole point is to share it.

But yes, Senna was designed to be versatile, and will probably be dialed back a little.

Firebeard3 votes

"Defensive choices are not global." laughs in Galio, Shen, and Soraka Didn't even read after that line. OP is mad

Eternal Torment1 votes

{quoted}

"Defensive choices are not global." laughs in Galio, Shen, and Soraka Didn't even read after that line. OP is mad

And you know I am mad how? You don't see my expression, don't read any of my emotional tones and you admit you didn't even read my post.

means you are assuming, and an assumption can only be accurate through first hand experience. Only way you could KNOW I am mad is if you're the one who's actually mad. Takes one to know one.

VoidThicc1 votes

I mean your arguments are slightly off from petite inaccuracies, but the heavy weight of the point remains. Honestly I am reading these responses and everyone is just circlejerk-hating on you for raising something valid in Gameplay.

As I see it people are making dumb comments to get your post removed because the mods do seemingly always lock threads whenever idiots decide to get loudmouthed. Quite an ironic situation to abuse, if you ask me.

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