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Ziggs bot has shined a light on a very frustrating issue.

ApexInTheCircle··35 votes·3,524 views

Let me start this post off by saying something. Ziggs botlane is refreshing, it's breathing new life into a stale botlane where the meta has stagnated.

The real question is why? Why do you play ziggs botlane?

  1. He is a pushing/harass god
  2. He is an amazing siege champion who can defend turret against multiple people
  3. He has self peel which makes it alittle easier to avoid ganks
  4. He can execute towers that helps him take lane quicker.

Number 4 is what I'm having issues with and I don't mean an issue with Ziggs, I mean an issue with botlane as a whole. 9 times out of 10 this is the first tower to fall and it will usually happen somewhere between 7-10 minutes in (At least that's what my experience has been on both sides of the spectrum.)

Towers, as they are now, are made of glass and paper mache. Also, they seem to start hitting like a wet noodle as little as 6 minutes into game when the support or tanky jungler gets 1 defensive item. This leads to 3-4 man tower dives botlane not even 10 minutes in because there are no negative repercussions to be had under turret.

Basically some of us (who I can see bringing up the same issue on the boards) just want towers slightly buffed to make them somewhat punishing for people to do early game tower dives.

TL;DR : Ziggs is cool bot, makes game fun. But towers are shit and need to be buffed.

Edited for shit phone grammar

56 Comments

EvilUnicornLord14 votes

You know how towers take 66.6% (Why that number?) less damage when no enemy minions are nearby? Have them deal more damage when no enemy minons are around as well.

Just a thought.

Marshbouy2 votes

That solves the issue of people taking towers quickly with minions, how exactly? Even with turret dives people are already building up an allied minion wave to win the battle, which really does nothing.

EvilUnicornLord2 votes

It's because minions are ssslllooowww and you have all the time in the world to either back off or position for an engage before that wave reaches the tower.

Marshbouy1 votes

And what? Just lose the CS? Every time the enemy team pushes the wave to your turret it's just time to back off? that's a terrible idea.

EvilUnicornLord2 votes

If you die, you lose the CS anyway.

Sometimes, recalling is the best option.

PPPPPPPPPPPP2701 votes

{quoted}

You know how towers take 66.6% (Why that number?) less damage when no enemy minions are nearby? Have them deal more damage when no enemy minons are around as well.

Just a thought.

90% of turret dives have minions around because you can get closer without getting tower aggro.

CerealBoxOfDoom3 votes

I don't really see what the problem is. Also why shouldnt towers be able to fall without a siege cannon and 10 war mages with a dragon summon and earth spells.

Seriously, there's nothing wrong with ziggs bot working. Its not a sign of a problem, in fact I take it as a good sign. Adcs started leaving bot forever ago anyways

Divine Winds3 votes

It's a problem because it's telling us that ADCs which are 'supposed' to go bot traditionally, are now outperformed by a, until recently, rarely played non meta ap champion. And turrets are supposed to be protecting their team, not dying after jinx gets a double at 6-7 minutes.

GinoSoldier2 votes

{quoted}

It's a problem because it's telling us that ADCs which are 'supposed' to go bot traditionally, are now outperformed by a, until recently, rarely played non meta ap champion. And turrets are supposed to be protecting their team, not dying after jinx gets a double at 6-7 minutes.

I would be happy, nay, VERY happy to see ADC's leave botlane in favor of literally anything else. Permanently. Keep the botlane as the duo lane all you want, but if there's a vayne/quinn top, a kindred/twitch jungle or a varus/ezreal mid who can play the ADC part, i get to play whatever the hell i think will work in bot lane.

Hell i'd be in favor of seeing anti-dive comps that don't have ADCs designed around saving the botlane turret to counter these ridiculous dives we're getting.

EvilUnicornLord1 votes

R.I.P. immobile fighters and tanks.

Divine Winds2 votes

What i'm saying isn't that ADCs must be played bot, im saying that when riot is specifically balancing these champions for bot lane, and people are ignoring this and playing ziggs (not played bot before this) it is a problem.

CerealBoxOfDoom1 votes

sounds like opportunity to me

Divine Winds1 votes

Honestly I'd love for more lane diversity. The game has become so stale now, that ziggs bot is exciting for me.

GinoSoldier2 votes

{quoted}

What i'm saying isn't that ADCs must be played bot, im saying that when riot is specifically balancing these champions for bot lane, and people are ignoring this and playing ziggs (not played bot before this) it is a problem.

I'd much rather Riot balanced individual champions for every lane instead of classes. Balance the ADCs that are good outside of botlane FOR outside of botlane play, instead of balancing them all for one lane and pray they don't go break something elsewhere. Same applies to all champions.

planters1 votes

Interesting fact, riot has made mention of the fact that they wanted to open up bot lane to more champ diversity hence we saw morde wreaking havoc in the bot lane in season 5. I remember someone once mentioning that they might try it with mages instead of melee champs. From what I know, the biggest reasons why adcs are mandatory in the late game are sustained damage and turret taking. That established, riot has changed the base configurations of the game to allow structures to take more damage from ap.

CerealBoxOfDoom1 votes

If adcs are expected to be anywhere else the game must finally be better adjusted for such. Minion behavior is the solution used in DoTA I hear.

Hence why I don't see the issue with a mage going bot or a specific tower being made of paper

Glory ln Death1 votes

Janna/Blitzcrank bot lane. They will basically always be pushed under their own tower, but the enemy can't do anything about it.

CerealBoxOfDoom3 votes

adcs traditionally go bot

people have bitched about this for years though.

towers are not there to protect your team, your team is there to protect them.

AtheosisX1 votes

Ziggs has been good mid for quite some time too.

ApexInTheCircle13 votes

{quoted}

I don't really see what the problem is. Also why shouldnt towers be able to fall without a siege cannon and 10 war mages with a dragon summon and earth spells.

Seriously, there's nothing wrong with ziggs bot working. Its not a sign of a problem, in fact I take it as a good sign. Adcs started leaving bot forever ago anyways

Never said I had a problem with ziggs bot.

CerealBoxOfDoom1 votes

but you did say that it was a sign of another problem. Hence what I said in the sentence immediately after that.

planters1 votes

his last sentence seems to just put into contect that the biggest problem with ziggs bot is not an intrinsic problem with ziggs bot but with the current state of the game. Towers are too squishy.

Actually I havent seen the comment yet so im going to make it now, Bot lane tower goes down the fastest because riot decided to make bot lane towers get (cant remember the specifics so bear with me there is a point) less or no armor on the outer turrets. THis was for pro play with the negative ramification being that in solo queue you can burn down a towers much more easily

Erockandroll1 votes

{quoted}

his last sentence seems to just put into contect that the biggest problem with ziggs bot is not an intrinsic problem with ziggs bot but with the current state of the game. Towers are too squishy.

Actually I havent seen the comment yet so im going to make it now, Bot lane tower goes down the fastest because riot decided to make bot lane towers get (cant remember the specifics so bear with me there is a point) less or no armor on the outer turrets. THis was for pro play with the negative ramification being that in solo queue you can burn down a towers much more easily

Personally, I feel like people pointing to the bot lane are kinda glorifying the problem. Fortification as a whole was reduced from 7 minutes to 5. (Remember that minions only spawn at the 1:15 mark) If your not damaging bot lane prior to the 5 minute mark, the fact that bot lane tower has no fortification bears no real consequence. (How often do you push lane pre 5 min? usually in a lane swap.)

That doesn't change the fact that fortification was removed 2 minutes earlier on every other tower. That in of itself probably wasn't impacted by the need to deter lane swaps. But I also recall riot stating that they thought that game length was too much in general.

Riot's probably trying to tackle game length by keeping towers at their current state. Though perhaps boards doesn't agree with riot's statement.

CerealBoxOfDoom1 votes

:/ I'm aware that he isn't hating so much on ziggs, however he does imply that ziggs is a symptom of an issue. I don't think its an issue. I think people need to just get used to it. Funny how ppl wanna imitate the pros until something gets even slightly complicated.

WAHHH plz dumb everything down so I have no magic cure to bad players on my team spoonfed to me lol

ApexInTheCircle1 votes

{quoted}

:/ I'm aware that he isn't hating so much on ziggs, however he does imply that ziggs is a symptom of an issue. I don't think its an issue. I think people need to just get used to it. Funny how ppl wanna imitate the pros until something gets even slightly complicated.

WAHHH plz dumb everything down so I have no magic cure to bad players on my team spoonfed to me lol

I'm pointing out that ziggs bot is able to combat the bullshitery that is 4-5 man tower dive -> double kill -> tower gone in as little as 8 minutes.

I'm saying that Ziggs going bot seems to combat this current issue by allowing him to defend his turret easier than most with his wave clear, all while taking enemy tower quicker than normal. Ziggs is not a symptom he's the fucking cure to a bullshit virus that is the botfeed meta.

So if you're going to misread everything and misinterpret everything (Most people in this thread caught what I was saying) Then maybe you're the one who needs glasses hm?

CerealBoxOfDoom1 votes

I didn't misinterpret anything.

Ziggs bot has shined a light on a very frustrating issue.

this could be called a symptom. Maybe you don't know what the word symptom means

symptom - a physical or mental feature that is regarded as indicating a condition of disease, particularly such a feature that is apparent to the patient

You say that he is the cure, a fever is the cure to some diseases. A symptom and cure are not opposites.

Number 4 is what I'm having issues with and I don't mean an issue with Ziggs, I mean an issue with botlane as a whole

again you go and imply that there is a problem with botlane because something you like is working there.

Again there is no misinterpretation, disagreeing with you is not a misinterpretation. I think its good that bot is like this, I think it is the reason ziggs is attractive there or part of it compared to before that was the case and I think that the current botlane could actually be better than the old one where ziggs wasn't abusing it.

Ziggs is cool bot, makes game fun. But towers are shit and need to be buffed.

again you make the implication that there is a problem with the ziggs vs tower dynamic. I think ziggs should ride towers like a fucking pony and I like that some towers are now different than others. In fact i'd like to give my towers their own enhancements. I want to buy items for them.

Marshbouy1 votes

I have a really hard time believing that you aren't a troll.

ApexInTheCircle1 votes

{quoted}

I have a really hard time believing that you aren't a troll.

That term has lost it's meaning and no I'm not a troll.

Marshbouy2 votes

I'm calling cereal a troll, not you. Your point in this post is valid but it's just a little late. Most people have already said this already.

ApexInTheCircle1 votes

{quoted}

I'm calling cereal a troll, not you. Your point in this post is valid but it's just a little late. Most people have already said this already.

Oh god yes, I believe that he does not read anything and just comments based on the title.

CerealBoxOfDoom1 votes

slurpslurp, he seems to agree with me now so i'll just go ahead and hop on board and shit talk cereal indirectly.

Ironic that a person bitching about how I don't read, not only misread my post but then went and misread the post responding to my post. Get some glasses or something.

ApexInTheCircle1 votes

{quoted}

slurpslurp, he seems to agree with me now so i'll just go ahead and hop on board and shit talk cereal indirectly.

Ironic that a person bitching about how I don't read, not only misread my post but then went and misread the post responding to my post. Get some glasses or something.

Was fucking about actually, I've got nothing against you or anything you say. If I wanted to shit talk you I'd shit talk you, instead of some "oh golly yes he just reads titles that cereal box!" So I'm sorry you've taken what I said out of context but I understand because tone of conversation is hard to pick up via text.

CerealBoxOfDoom1 votes

what's tone got to do with anything?

You said ziggs was a sign of something problematic, I said its a good sign

ApexInTheCircle1 votes

{quoted}

what's tone got to do with anything?

You said ziggs was a sign of something problematic, I said its a good sign

Ziggs himself is not problematic, it's what he represents. He can hold off the bullshit storm that is the 4 man dives at bot and taking tower at 8 minutes in. I said Ziggs has highlighted a problem.

CerealBoxOfDoom1 votes

:/ yes I know, that's why I said he highlights a boon rather than a problem

CerealBoxOfDoom1 votes

I have a really easy time noticing you have failed to contradict a fucking thing I've said

yingwhy3 votes

Glass and paper mache? more like high school bathroom toilet paper

ApexInTheCircle6 votes

{quoted}

Glass and paper mache? more like high school bathroom toilet paper

Stahp, I have post traumatic raw anus disorder.

RexSaur2 votes

If you make towers so strong to survive ziggs than they are unkillable by other champions.

Its just that his W tower execute needs to go, it was a cool gimmick and all at first but its obvious it gives him too much "free" power, he wouldnt be a bad champion without it in fact he would still push tower better than most adcs due to his passive.

Danjeng2 votes

Looks like the (tiny) master of evil is feeling a little jealous about his more popular FotM Hexplosives counterpart.

sobi9991 votes

It's funny how none of you have a problem with zigg's harassing ass but spread hate for teemo every teemo thread even when oracles have been introduced.

Ale non è male1 votes

{quoted}

Let me start this post off by saying something. Ziggs botlane is refreshing, it's breathing new life into a stale botlane where the meta has stagnated.

The real question is why? Why do you play ziggs botlane?

  1. He is a pushing/harass god
  2. He is an amazing siege champion who can defend turret against multiple people
  3. He has self peel which makes it alittle easier to avoid ganks
  4. He can execute towers that helps him take lane quicker.

Number 4 is what I'm having issues with and I don't mean an issue with Ziggs, I mean an issue with botlane as a whole. 9 times out of 10 this is the first tower to fall and it will usually happen somewhere between 7-10 minutes in (At least that's what my experience has been on both sides of the spectrum.)

Point 1 and 2 are a worse issue than point 4 if you are specifically talking about Ziggs and not about bot lane as a whole, BOT LANE WHICH REQUIRE A SEPARATED AND EXTENDED DISCUSSION

Actually in bot lane you can be in a situation in which you are actually winning lane vs enemy duo, and at a certain point it is enough you leave it for whatever reason in a wrong moment (back off with a slightly bad timing, back off after a gank or being 4 man dove, back off after taking a drake slower than usual because it was mildly contested or your mate delay a bit to help you take it) and your tower fall down despite not doing any major mistake, and this happen playing against ANY marksmen - not only Ziggs...while on the opposite side take down a lane becomes literally impossible if the enemy has little waveclear or your champ has slighlty subpar damage

Basically, it has becomed unreliable to understand/foresee how fast a turret will go down, and this thing can cause huge unbalance because paired with the minion "push buff" and first turret giving relevant amount of gold, it can literally swing the flow of the entire game on a whim in under 1 minute without anything substantial happening on the map other than a turret suddenly blowing up apparently out of nowhere for apparently no reason

The penultimate change to turrets in particular started the situation, and the last one, that supposedly made more reliable last hitting, made it even worse because had the paradoxical effect to make it less predictable the time needed to take down a tower

Once you fix this issue, you have solved most of the actual problems existing in bot lane, because it make more easy to evaluate how the single marksmen actually hold up in the current meta...and to be honest ADC are not so weak as most of people cry, that's not true at all, it is just you don't feel the "agency" (using Riot dictionary)

Admiralhaddi1 votes

So basically people started to complain about ziggs after long long years just because some people started to play him at bot lane?

Caytheles1 votes

his rework wasnt even a year ago... it was recent. Hi Satchel charge now destroys turrets at 35% health in one go. along with a lichbane and his passive doing 50% of the turrets health? thats 85% of a tower man.....

Admiralhaddi1 votes

I don't see anything wrong with that. I mean yeah that's a lot of damage but he is squishy as cotton. Many assassin can counter him. In rank game I barely see ziggs players. Many adc are weak atm ....... i'm not talking about vayne ... so I think playing ziggs in bot lane isn't a bad idea. No one complained about him when he was a mid laner after the rework.

Caytheles1 votes

oh no im perfectly fine with bot lane ziggs, was just correcting you on the timeframe you set.

The only problem now is that people will cry and cry rather than learn, thus will result in a ziggs nerf, just look what Malicious Metal did to mordekaiser? he cried and cried until he finally got his wish to turn mord into a solo laner again

Admiralhaddi1 votes

Feelsbad*[zombie-nunu-bummed]*

ReZisT Lust1 votes

he took down an entire tower once an enemy backed once

ÈvilMorty1 votes

#5. Adcs cant complain about this when they take themselves into top lane and tell us to not complain about it.

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