after playing AP ekko I found out why assassins need to be able to instaburst down ADC's

hhaavviikk·Sep 10, 2016·51 votes·2,954 views

because of lifesteal, there I stood waiting for my Q to return and R to arrive at a good spot and the ADC gained about 600 health back while waiting for it, was even worse when it was graves who not only killed me while waiting for my Q/R but also gained about 1k health before they I could do anything else.

unless lifesteal gets massively reduced I don't see how delayed burst could be viable.

and yes I know zed has delayed ''burst'' but often he kills you without his ult's mark.

88 Comments

ShaydroxSep 10, 201641 votes

Oh you were fighting a graves? Sorry he doesn't classify as marksman, he's a tank assassin I'm afraid.

nice tableSep 10, 201617 votes

you mean his a tank, assasin, juggernaut, marksman, support that's ranged and can dash into melee range of any melee champion and win the 1v1 by having auto attack on.

Legacy HydralphaSep 10, 201621 votes

https://67.media.tumblr.com/f988bd1d4686c35bbc82867f05f20da5/tumblr_ob7bzjWIQW1vbzeaso1_540.jpg

HaloDragonXSep 10, 20163 votes

No, he's a sustain tank assassin marksmen anti-bruiser.

KieferrSep 10, 20163 votes

More like a hybrid burst mage-adcarry-tank-assassin-support aoe diver duelist teamfights specialist who is a lane bully and scales like a hypercarry. BUT... He's balanced!

All SkillzzSep 10, 20165 votes

{quoted}

More like a hybrid burst mage-adcarry-tank-assassin-support aoe diver duelist teamfights specialist.

we took his cigar so he is allowed to excel at everything.

EvilMerodachSep 12, 20162 votes

[{quoted}](name=All Skillzz,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=jQGWzEdU,comment-id=0004000100000000,timestamp=2016-09-10T18:20:32.528+0000)

we took his cigar so he is allowed to excel at everything.

One of the many health benefits of quitting smoking! Call 1-800-QUIT-NOW!

Or in league terms: /ff /all GG

The truth was Graves quit for health reasons, but didn't Riot want him look like a wimp. So they made up some legal jargon about 'regional laws blahblahblah' But now that he's got full use of his lungs, heart, vocal cords, etc. He's so buff even Riot CEOs are afraid of him. I mean he's practically got them at gunpoint. You try telling Graves he's getting nerfed next patch when you're staring down the barrel of a self-reloading techmaturgical shotgun.

https://67.media.tumblr.com/609344505320b8a5004f8be8075d837e/tumblr_n96fzdb5s31tacxpmo1_250.gif

LordBrascaSep 10, 201614 votes

That was just graves lol. You are talking about the only champ that is allowed to be ranged while having bruiser tanky stats and assassin like AoE damage.

Mojihito666Sep 10, 20164 votes

Graves = Bruiser tanky bursty sustain ranged assasin.

Did i miss something ?

Gosh DarnSep 10, 20166 votes

Apparently you did. Graves is allowed to have a huge resistance buff, build bruiser, and has the burst of an assassin with his ammo system and Q+R.

Anu3isIISep 10, 201611 votes

You forgot to mention that they also have tools to destroy our burst potential item 3155 , item 3140 and sometimes (instead of Hexdrinker/Maw) item 3053 .

Not to mention that all of them have significant amount of offensive stats when upgraded ... item 3156 and item 3139 .

If they buy a item 3072 or item 3812 in combination with one of the items above, good luck bursting them ('s Shield is powerful + Life Steal, has its Passive + Physical Omnivamp).

If they really want to counter you, they can just buy item 3102 as their only defensive item, which is a trade off because it offers no offensive stats. The other ones make me feel like I'm cheated...

Skia AsteriSep 10, 201611 votes

Leaving out any discussion about if you were playing correctly or not, the point is valid. For assassins to be able to kill marksmen they need one or more of three things: to unleash their burst faster than it is possible to react so there is not chance of life steal, the sheer damage to make life stealing to full health meaningless even if it occurs after you have already used part of your combo, and/or a way to negate life steal as a factor.

They have said they are moving away from the first in the assassin class update. The second leads to tank builds on assassins because their damage is so far in excess that they do not need a full damage build. As for the last one, item 3165 is crappy because of the requirement of getting them low and item 3123 does not build into an item that is useful against enemies that are not stacking resists.

Toru ItaiSep 11, 20162 votes

if all assassins get a blind+silence in their kit then they can delay their burst as long as they want to make that CC last.

Gary B EnkelisSep 10, 20167 votes

Hmmm. These are options for APs: item 3165 summoner 14 .

The sort of Rock-Paper-Scissors has kind of always been:

Burst beats Sustain Poke beats Burst Sustain beats Poke

So I'm not surprised if you tried something like to Poke with Q and they Sustained back. I mean I dunno.

hhaavviikkSep 10, 20162 votes

I went in with flash + E/W/Q and had morello however since this was late game and they were fully built the morello didn't make much of a difference when it came to the lifesteal as the enemy ADC still gained a ton of health by the time my Q returned and my R was in palce to try and ''finish'' the enemy ADC.

Gary B EnkelisSep 10, 20164 votes

Sounds like you didn't have enough damage to get them to 35% or less HP. That's a tanky ADC if you were full damage. I don't know Ekko that well.

hhaavviikkSep 10, 20162 votes

I did manage to reduce them below the threshold for activating morello however maw of malmortius and black cleaver significantly increased their survivability causing me to need my R and return of Q to finish them off however lifesteal made that impossible.

Gary B EnkelisSep 10, 20161 votes

item 3165 gives 8 seconds of Grievous Wounds, and probably refreshes every time you hit them with a spell...? item 3156 shield lasts 5 seconds.... I don't know what happened, but I don't think they could have been lifestealing for 3 seconds after activated and finished? shield activates after taking magic damage, so didn't they just get a fresh application of Grievous Wounds?

I don't know though.

hhaavviikkSep 10, 20163 votes

well it is what happened, with any other assassin like zed or talon they'd be dead in an instant not allowing room for lifesteal however since it takes a couple of seconds for ekko his ''burst'' it allows them to lifesteal no matter what you do with him.

and yes the grievous wounds did effect them however seeing as they lifesteal without it for about 600-800 they would still heal for allot with grievous wounds applied to them since it's only 40% reduction

MonkeyMadnessSep 10, 20161 votes

What are you talking about with this "couple seconds" thing? If you need your ult to secure kills on a squishy target with ap ekko you are doing something really wrong. You should be throwing your w to cut off their escape/stun them as you go in, time the e so that you get there right when the stun field opens (and now you get a MASSIVE shield), throw your q, and aa for the third hit to proc your passive. Even without the second Q hit, this should be bringing them down low enough for the % missing hp damage on your w passive to kick in, along with the grievous wounds from item 3165 , and if you you still can't get the kill with that plus ignite, you have 2 options:

to buy time for your ghost to reposition for an ult if they are trying to fight you, or just chase them down til your e comes back off cd if they try to run
uninstall the game

hhaavviikkSep 10, 20165 votes

so basically only 2. is left since 1. only works vs bad players ok

damage ekko has in total without second Q and ult: 556 with 1.4 AP ratio

now lets add in the AP lets say 500 AP

passive deals 400 Q deals 220 W deals 18% E deals 446 lich bane deals 329 damage

grand total of 1395 damage, that is if resistances didn't exist, cut it in half and see where that gets ya.

damage he misses out on without second Q and ult:

Q 440 ult 1200

honestly AP ekkko his burst is to delayed as he relies on his Q and R to much, he's played bruiser for a reason.

MonkeyMadnessSep 10, 20161 votes

First of all, you didn't calculate Thunderlord's and luden's ekko into this (both are pretty good on him). That will get your damage up quite a bit. Also, you do deal some physical damage with autos that you ignored. Can you just trust me that ekko is designed to absolutely eliminate squishies pretty much instantly? LIke, I've done it myself with him, I've see other people do it, and I've even see this bs tank ekko shit do it (not instantly per se, but it makes short work of a marksman).

hhaavviikkSep 10, 20164 votes

guess we face different players, granted I don't play ranked so maybe that's why, only times I've I've instakilled enemies is when I'm semi fed/fed, also never faced a AP eko that isnta bursted anyone on my team, though like I said I don't play ranked so I wont'see any great players there.

I did include the AD on his E and lichbane proc.

either way I'm not that good of a player so it could just be my lack of skill + not seeing great AP ekko's to learn froom.

MrryZSep 10, 20163 votes

ekko is designed to absolutely eliminate squishies pretty much instantly?

No, He's not. Unless he is incredibly fed he won't be able to 100-0 a squishy in one rotation. He's a skirmisher. Meaning that he goes in unleashes his burst and then disengages to repeat it again until they're dead.

MonkeyMadnessSep 10, 20161 votes

He's built to dive, and dive hard. Why else would they give him an ult like that? Fiora is an example of a skirmisher, meant to single out specific targets, but has more difficulty doing so in a big 5v5 teamfight.

doombotMECHASep 11, 20161 votes

he either lives free or dives hard...

ekko is very much a skirmisher because of the time-based mechanics in hit kit aka second q and ult, using his ult to escape is supposed to be a sub-optimal use case, ala malphite's ult being used for escaping--you aren't getting half the ability.

what boggles me about riot's design team is that they gave a character huge delays to access his damage, melee range, and then expected him to build full damage.

MonkeyMadnessSep 11, 20161 votes

Except that he never really builds full damage. He goes tank with maybe triforce and is uncounterable...

MonkeyMadnessSep 11, 20161 votes

He's intended as an assassin...like a lot.

The Yetii RiderSep 10, 20161 votes

{quoted}

I went in with flash + E/W/Q and had morello however since this was late game and they were fully built the morello didn't make much of a difference when it came to the lifesteal as the enemy ADC still gained a ton of health by the time my Q returned and my R was in palce to try and ''finish'' the enemy ADC.

News flash - No one is supposed to kill a "fully built" ADC. If the ADC has 6 items they're either super fed or the game has gone on so long that every AP assassin has started to fall off.

The only assassins who don't fall off late are Yasuo, Talon and Kat, and that's because of how much AOE they have.

NuparuSep 11, 20164 votes

...?

That's the entire purpose of having an assassin...

There's a reason QSS no longer cleanses Death Mark, lol

AstôlfoSep 12, 20162 votes

"oh man wtf assassins are doing their job wtf rito op pls nurf"

AstôlfoSep 12, 20161 votes

Um, no. And Yasuo's not even an assassin.

Please actually learn what you're talking about first before attempting to criticize someone else who does know what they're talking about.

The Yetii RiderSep 12, 20161 votes

No. You don't know what you're talking about at all.

Yasuo is an assassin.

Assassins can't kill fed ADCs. No one kills fed ADCs. A six item ADC is meant to end the game.

AstôlfoSep 12, 20161 votes

mmk bud, whatever you say.

If you're going to troll, you might as well go do it in M&G or Miscellaneous or GD instead. GP is for serious and intelligent debates. (Or at least, supposed to be)

MunchCrunchLunchSep 10, 20164 votes

{quoted}

Hmmm. These are options for APs: .

The sort of Rock-Paper-Scissors has kind of always been:

Burst beats Sustain Poke beats Burst Sustain beats Poke

So I'm not surprised if you tried something like to Poke with Q and they Sustained back. I mean I dunno.

HE HAS TO BE UNDER 35% HEALTH FOR MORELLOS TO WORK.

Critmaster GarenSep 10, 20165 votes

"we want to add counterplay to assassins by increasing the time it takes for them to execute their burst."

Annie Annie Annie Annie Annie Annie Annie Annie Annie Annie Annie Annie Annie Annie Annie Annie Annie Annie Annie Annie Annie Annie Annie Annie Annie Annie Annie Annie Annie Annie Annie Annie Annie Annie Annie Annie Annie Annie Annie Annie Annie Annie Annie Annie Annie

"were deliberately keeping annies low counterplay burst in her kit"

Jaygo41Sep 11, 20162 votes

you seem to leave out the fact that annie is slow as molasses and that the people who need windows are people like leblanc, zed, rengar, and talon who can bounce around summoners rift like an 8 yr old on 4 capri suns

Critmaster GarenSep 11, 20163 votes

{quoted}

you seem to leave out the fact that annie is slow as molasses and that the people who need windows are people like leblanc, zed, rengar, and talon who can bounce around summoners rift like an 8 yr old on 4 capri suns

flash isnt slow.

yes, it has a really long damn cooldown, but she can just delete squishies pretty much whenever it is up with little to no counterplay.

flash basically increases her threat range to more than 1000 units. and whenever she has it ready, the only "counterplay" is to stay out of that range, since she can indefinitely sit on that 100% guaranteed stun from her q.

a champion who is only useful with flash and can 100% delete someone whenever it is ready is really terrible design.

Pika FoxSep 11, 20161 votes

Except annies design is necessary in order to keep other champions in check.

And its really not as bad as youre attempting to make it seem. Even with flash her range is pitiful, and expected.

Critmaster GarenSep 11, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=Pika Fox,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=jQGWzEdU,comment-id=0014000000000000,timestamp=2016-09-11T23:00:48.352+0000)

Except annies design is necessary in order to keep other champions in check.

And its really not as bad as youre attempting to make it seem. Even with flash her range is pitiful, and expected.

her actual range is more than 1000 units with flash. flash + q is instantaneous, so as soon as youre anywhere in her threat range youll take her full burst chain.

and shes still shitty design. she might keep certain champions in check but is just straight up unfair to a load of other champions. its like trying to fight cancer with aids. doesnt make the aids any better.

Pika FoxSep 12, 20161 votes

And most other mages still outrange her. Her being able to have more than 1000 units with flash still means other mages have much more range with flash.

And her design is fair and balanced, not to mention shes powerful and new user friendly, something LoL desperately needs, because garen sure as hell isnt.

Critmaster GarenSep 12, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=Pika Fox,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=jQGWzEdU,comment-id=001400000000000000000000,timestamp=2016-09-12T14:44:59.675+0000)

And most other mages still outrange her. Her being able to have more than 1000 units with flash still means other mages have much more range with flash.

And her design is fair and balanced, not to mention shes powerful and new user friendly, something LoL desperately needs, because garen sure as hell isnt.

what do you mean other mages have more range with flash? that might be true, but their burst is not reliable. flashing for a max range skillshot is not something you want to do, as theyre way too easy to sidestep, or for the annie to just flash over them and drop her own burst.

the problem with her is mainly with the early game around lvl 6.

other mages might outrange her with their spells. but as soon as annie hits level 6 and has flash ready, she can sit indefinitely on that stun.

longer ranged mages dont have the ability to waveclear with their spells from maximum distance at that point. for example Lux will have to come as close to annie as to be able to auto attack her caster minions to cs.

means. annie can practically zone her opponent from cs at level in that transition phase where the 200 range advantage didnt kick in yet. molten shield also makes her tanky enough for the poke not to affect her enough to push her out of lane before the lux would run out of mana.

you havent provided me with an actual counterargument why shes supposed to be fair and balanced, when her kit absolutely lacks counterplay, and riot even admitted they purposely kept the counterplay to her extremely low and didnt increase it with the mage update. for whatever reason.

which in my opinion was a grave mistake.

Pika FoxSep 12, 20161 votes

"lacks counterplay"

Annie is immobile

Annie is extremely short ranged

If she is sitting on the stun, she has no waveclear and is forced to auto to last hit as well

Annie can only burst out squishies, and they have access to QSS/Maw/Steraks

Annie is fairly predictable

Flash is a long CD. If flash really made up for drawbacks like you suggest Galio would be pick or ban every single game.

Annie is the only viable noob friendly champion in the game. Shes powerful and consistent, but lacks options to deal with things that other champions have.

Critmaster GarenSep 12, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=Pika Fox,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=jQGWzEdU,comment-id=00140000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2016-09-12T14:53:40.266+0000)

"lacks counterplay"

Annie is immobile

Annie is extremely short ranged

If she is sitting on the stun, she has no waveclear and is forced to auto to last hit as well

Annie can only burst out squishies, and they have access to QSS/Maw/Steraks

Annie is fairly predictable

Flash is a long CD. If flash really made up for drawbacks like you suggest Galio would be pick or ban every single game.

Annie is the only viable noob friendly champion in the game. Shes powerful and consistent, but lacks options to deal with things that other champions have.

read the entire post pls. ive already answered most of those.

the issue with annie is that her burst is too reliable. and slow movement speed and medium range doesnt mean a lot when she has flash ready.

just because shes flash reliant and the summoner has long cd doesnt mean shes not shitty design.

would you find a champion well designed, if he had a 10 minute cooldown ability that lets him 100% delete any champion anywhere on the map? this is an extreme example, but it is a similar issue to why annies kit is bad.

shes extremely weak when she doesnt have flash ready. and shes stupid when she does.

im not saying she shouldnt be viable. but her kit shouldnt be as terrible as it is.

also, for some reason you only seem to consider ad matchups. i havent seen another mage buy qss, steraks or maw.

Pika FoxSep 12, 20161 votes

And i already answered those.

Her burst is intended to be reliable. And slow movement and low range mean a lot even with flash ready. Learn to play around ranges better.

Again, shes not shitty design.

Annie cannot do this, so your argument is invalid. At most theres only 2 people on your team she can combo, both of which are supposed to be protected by the team.

Critmaster GarenSep 12, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=Pika Fox,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=jQGWzEdU,comment-id=0014000000000000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2016-09-12T15:03:25.733+0000)

And i already answered those.

Her burst is intended to be reliable. And slow movement and low range mean a lot even with flash ready. Learn to play around ranges better.

Again, shes not shitty design.

Annie cannot do this, so your argument is invalid. At most theres only 2 people on your team she can combo, both of which are supposed to be protected by the team.

riot themselves admitted that her kit has almost no counterplay. and for whatever reason they chose to ignore it.

please enlighten me why there should be a double standart around assassins needing more counterplay and increased burst windows, and at the same time all of this doesnt apply to annie.

by your logic, we could keep talons current kit.

shouldnt there be a "noob champ" assassin, that has very little counterplay (or is "reliable") and is viable at the same time?

why does one philosophy apply to melee burst, but not to ranged burst?

and again, youre just considering the mid and lategame.

Pika FoxSep 12, 20161 votes

"please enlighten me why there should be a double standart around assassins needing more counterplay and increased burst windows, and at the same time all of this doesnt apply to annie."

Assassins have mobility.

Critmaster GarenSep 12, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=Pika Fox,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=jQGWzEdU,comment-id=001400000000000000000000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2016-09-12T16:49:11.174+0000)

"please enlighten me why there should be a double standart around assassins needing more counterplay and increased burst windows, and at the same time all of this doesnt apply to annie."

Assassins have mobility.

which takes them into melee range.

annie can burst from a distance.

Pika FoxSep 12, 20161 votes

Annie has no distance to burst people with. She is one of the shortest ranged AP champs in the game. Assassins have mobility that greatly outranges Annie's burst range.