Boards Discussion: Marksmen Itemization && Bottom Lane Strength

Elohaven··19 votes·1,182 views

Hello, I'm Elohaven.

Currently, on this account, I am a Silver III ADC main whose secondary role is support. I play top occasionally if I am autofilled or can abuse an ADC there. Top laners currently face the issue of their item prices compared to ADCs and midlaners. They have the most expensive kits generally. The boards and reddit is filled with people who dislike the large price disparity between ADCs and top laners. This post is to discuss, analyze, and explain why this is happening, whether it should be an issue to be solved, and how we can address this issue.

I will post my thoughts below to start it off.

#ADC Build vs Top Lane Build

Vayne item 3031 item 3087 item 3006 item 3036 item 3094 item 3026 14,900 Gold Camille item 3078 item 3053 item 3047 item 3748 item 3143 item 3194 175233

That is a 2633 gold difference. By the time a top laner is finished with their build, assuming both the ADC and top laner are receiving the same amount of GPM(gold per minute), the ADC will be ahead with two items.

#Pricing and Possible Reasoning

However, that does not necessarily mean the ADC stomps the top laner. ADCs are squishy and can be bursted down. Bruisers, like Camille, can pop an ADC at full build with just four items - including boots.

If top laners had item prices as cheap as ADCs, then the snowballs in top lane would be monstrous and League would be determined by defense primarily. Tanks could easily abuse cheap items to conquer the game and we would be back to a tank meta. Early game conquerors would lose their advantages much quicker due to how cheap top laners item sets are - allowing them to easily catch up and sustain when behind. For example, Pantheon against Ornn would get stomped at level 5 if they both backed for items. Ornn would already have a full tier 3 armor item while Pantheon would have a lethality item. Another example would be Fiora and Jax where the advantages of Titanic or Trinity Force would come way too early. This would cause them to easily cut down squishies with their kits and dominate fights. Toplaners are meant to peel or get on to the backline or engage. Cheaper items would put them in a strong position.

Riot does not want the game determined by defense. It makes the game less exciting and action-packed. It will make new players go away. It will make people feel weak.

#The Actual Issue

Did you notice something funny about what I posted about the builds?

I did not add a single lifesteal item into the ADC's kit. Why? Because ADCs do not need lifesteal right now. And how does this relate to our topic?

Look at the prices of item 3072 item 3812 item 3153 item 3139 . Notice how they are all over 3000 gold. ADCs do not build these any more due to "peel creep". Runes like Legend:Bloodline, support heals, shields, Gargoyle's, Resolve's Guardian rune, passives, and many more types of security from other champions or external resources allow ADCs to give up on lifesteal in exchange for more damage. The reason you feel ADCs pump out a lot of damage compared to you unexpectedly is because they are. With these lifesteal items, their kits shoot up dramatically. Say every ADC did not buy two zeals anymore and two sustain items for peel instead, then their prices hover around 16K with only one zeal and one lifesteal item. If they require another, it exceeds a typical toplaner's. Riot made crit items cheap as ADCs typically needed sustain first or during the mid-game so they made crit items easier to gain late mid or late game.

Peel Creep is an issue because it's the primary reason ADCs have the ability to pump out so much damage than previous seasons.

#Is this an actual issue?

Yes and no.

Yes in regards to the snowball nature of botlane and the nature of ADCs. Peel Creep allows ADCs to CONSTANTLY build damage and DPS. They do not have to stop for sustain. They lose that small period/pause where they don't get a full item during a back. This causes a snowball feel impossible to slow down.

No as it is not why botlane is so relevant. People state Riot has made ADCs the star of the show repeatedly - but ADCs have always been an important role. They are meant to be the main source of DPS and since Riot's beginnings. But why are they so strong now? Simply because of the map's structure, champion varieties, and synergy.

See, first of all, botlane is 40% of the team - thus putting botlane behind takes away 40% of a team's power. It also is next to one of the biggest objectives, drakes. In addition, it has a tower and a support who is behind will make the enemy team lose vision control. Lack of vision control leads to more gank opportunities, objectives, etc. and a snowball. It is very easy to get botlane tower due to two people there and this can easily turn to five with top's teleport, mid's roaming potential, and the jungler. Whereas, at top or mid, fights turn to a 3v2 or 2v2 easily - making a defense possible unless substantially ahead. In botlane, a 5v2 means a quick turret and objective due to ADCs being weak early and single-target early on.

Botlane isn't the most impactful position. It is the most interactive, which people despise. Mages still pump out more DPS than ADCs if they can land their shots or spread their AoE damage well. ADCs are very simple to deal damage with. Riot fears allowing mages to deal more damage than ADCs on average because AoE in a teamfight is a very dangerous tool. ADCs single-target nature, in typical kits, are much preferred. They require an item for AoE usually unless their kits allow it - but the AoE from kits is smaller than mages without items. Players dislike botlane's loss as it does not just put two people ahead - it puts three. The jungler gets access to camps, ADCs and supports roam, etc. etc.

#Conclusion or TLDR

ADC itemization is due to the meta and "peel creep". It allows for a cheaper item set as less sustain allows for more damage. Botlane isn't the most powerful lane, it is the most interactive which allows for more influence due to 40-60% of the team gaining a lot of opportunity. Top lane buffs/ADC nerfs need to be strongly considered.

#Funny Thoughts

Removal of critical strike is a bad idea. A rework is unnecessary. Riot uses pseudorandom chance - a game design concept controlling RNG in crit. You can search it up. Also, it'll just make Riot buff ADCs in general.

Kit reworks are not needed guys. It's numbers this season. Runes, items, or stats. Big reworks aren't needed even if a champ is annoying. Compared to a whole player population who loves X champion and is more valuable than a single entity, it means people love playing as him than people who dislike him.

#Community Contributions

  • Suggested we increase ADC zeal item prices
  • Removing AoE from ADCs
  • Crit chance removal (Not critical strike)
  • Buffs to top lane in a healthy way (perhaps armor items)
  • Healthier itemization

55 Comments

sutora310 votes

hello I am a silver adc main Riot does not want the game determined by defense. It makes the game less exciting and action-packed. It will make new players go away. It will make people feel weak. definitery not biased

Ahristocats5 votes

thought the same

didn't even bother to talk about the offensive of bruisers except "camille can burst an adc"

/k

Elohaven5 votes

The point was bruisers/tanks/juggernauts can kill an ADC in a 1v1 once they got on top of them. It isn't hard once they have 2-3 core items and boots. They have CC, innate tankiness, and mobility that allows them so survive the period of damage they take while they are chasing. Once they get on top, the ADC is done.

We can use Jax and Darius against Kog'maw and Sivir. We can use Riven and Ornn against Lucian and Caitlyn. I posted the champions simply for builds and simple comparisons. In a 1v1, in full build - who wins? The top laners.

Their health regen, defenses, mixed with their damage causes them to easily stomp ADCs while surviving massive amounts of damage during a single instance.

Just because you see Camille and Vayne, you cannot state that I'm dismissing the two classes completely when they are simply examples. If we were to consider every champion with their strengths/weaknesses, this would add an unnecessary layer of complexity.

Ahristocats4 votes

https://media.giphy.com/media/53lN577WPCFGM/giphy.gif

this game is NOT 1v1

This entire post and this entire thread can only be aviable in your own elo that is silver No sane ADC is going to 1v1 anyone above d1 No sane tank and support is going to let an ADC alone above d1

Darius is also going to lose 1v1 against kog after kog has item 3153 unless darius is 10/0

Elohaven4 votes

Thank you for stating that.

So let's get to this topic and your other posts.

I believe you're missing the point of a majority of my statements. For example:

So? They take overheal and fleet footwork with relic shield because it's overpowered i don't see what's the point of this

My statement was simply to show a counter. By definition, the "meta" is referring to what are the strongest strategies currently. Thus, "ITEMS ARE OVERPOWERED SO ADCS USE OVERPOWERED ITEMS AND THIS IS NOT META" is an incorrect statement by you. Item usage is a meta hence we state "Ardent Censer meta". Rune metas, etc, etc. Meta refers to strategy - not one entity.

Now, why do top laners have more expensive kits?

Their tankiness and survivability in teamfights mixed with their damage would be an issue if they had equal gold value to ADCs. Top laners could easily dictate the game by defense. They are meant to be a frontline and a threat to the backline. Top laners can peel, have kits with CC, can engage easily, and at times mobility. You are underestimating them by quite the margin.

I'm not disagreeing with the gold disparity with ADCs and top laners but I do want one thing to be clear:

I am simply stating the situation is being illustrated in an exaggerated fashion. It is quite bad but not the point it is the source of all dilemmas which I see people post on the boards frequently.

"ADCs are the bane of everything" TL;DR. I hope you can get that I'm speaking about the exaggerations people have and not mistake it for my other points.

Anyways, there's an issue with ADCs and gold - which I agree. I do want to state that people have been attributing factors of the game to the issue when it is not the source of X dilemma.

Elohaven3 votes

I took that conclusion from a survey Riot sent out and a post they gave out.

I would also appreciate that you don't assume. You're hypocritically claiming bias when you're introducing bias yourself in your statement. Just because of elo or division does not mean an argument should be dismissed. I would appreciate if you posted a counterargument if you truly feel that way.

Anyways, let's talk about my evidence. We can use the tank meta and "ADCs in 2k17" dilemma. People felt weak and Riot buffed ADCs and introduced the assassin reworked. People feel better about the ADC buffs than the tank meta.

If top laners got all the benefit, then you would see midlaners, junglers, ADCs, and supports complain about one role where currently the issue is with top laners alone. Meaning, the issue's current side does not require drastic changes.

I'm not hearing anything about midlaners - indicating their roaming potential and influence is viewed to be in a healthy state.

Athenes Lulu5 votes

What?! An actually reasonable thread regarding ADCs on Boards? Someone burn this witch!!!!!!!1

Another interesting point to bring up about current ADC itemization is how they benefit hypercarries, who are the ones with the highest winrates. This adds to your point on what happens if bruiser itemization were to be cheaper and how that would "trash" early lane bullies, which is pretty much the case right now, along with new runes cancelling out the supposed early game weaknesses hypercarries are supposed to have.

Correct me if I'm wrong, though, but the last time I checked on the winrates, hypercarries like Vayne, Kog, and Twitch are some of the best ADCs right now, also especially because they can effectively melt down tanks.

Elohaven1 votes

Miss Fortune and Ezreal are the best ADCs right now. Vayne is getting nerfed, Jinx is getting buffed. Kog is really weak due to his immobility and squishiness with the buff of damage across the boards.

Teridax685 votes

Some thoughts on this:

  • I agree that a contributing factor to cheap marksman builds is that defensive items, which are often the most expensive part of marksman itemization, are no longer as essential to their builds as they were before.
  • With that said, even when you do factor in defensive items, marksman builds are still among the cheapest around, much cheaper than bruiser builds at the very least. As many others have pointed out, this comes from the cheapness of Zeal's upgrades, as 2600 gold apiece really isn't much for the power they offer.
  • I'm not quite sure what is meant by "interactive" in the OP -- the post claims that bot lane is the most interactive, then goes on to say that ADC deals damage more reliably and more easily, and snowballs much harder off of a lead, which to me would normally come across as a sign of reduced interactivity.
  • Pseudorandomness in crit doesn't entirely iron out its kinks when so much power is placed on specific crits, such as Shiv's bonus damage or Fleet Footwork's healing. Even with pseudo-RNG governing overall crit rates, the latter empowerments, among others, still render crit an unstable mechanic.
  • Generally, players don't ask to remove crit purely to nerf marksmen, as it's understood that a compensatory buff would be needed. Rather, players want to remove the mechanic mainly because it carries a ton of power with no interactivity of its own, and thereby limits the potential interactivity of marksmen.
Lios Ashenblade2 votes

lol give me some crit protection boots or something damn

Elohaven3 votes

Generally, players don't ask to remove crit purely to nerf marksmen, as it's understood that a compensatory buff would be needed. Rather, players want to remove the mechanic mainly because it carries a ton of power with no interactivity of its own, and thereby limits the potential interactivity of marksmen.

I understand this, but there is a population on the boards who suggest this. Hence, under funny thoughts, I stated crit removal is a funny and unlikely idea.

I like many of your pints.

I'm not quite sure what is meant by "interactive" in the OP -- the post claims that bot lane is the most interactive, then goes on to say that ADC deals damage more reliably and more easily, and snowballs much harder off of a lead, which to me would normally come across as a sign of reduced interactivity.

Early game for a snowball, it has high interactivity. Then the game is dictated by bot lane sadly. So I believe bot lane is interactive early on and becomes a bummer for the rest of the game.

I am all for increasing zeal prices. 3600 gold doesn't sound bad.

Poske1 votes

Pseudorandomness is horrible here are reasons

  1. Damage is extremly high you can have an ADC land 10 autos in teamfight per game (yes just per game), that can easly determine a game by luck

  2. Champions arent the only thing you are criting. you can be unlucky in hitting minions but aoe crit with jinx 3 times in a row at 40% crit chance -* I remember when that happend my entire team including me was extremly confused on how we lost that teamfight. #RNG and that was even before her Rockets did aoe on top of aoe... Jinx rockets are even more unhealthy now

  3. Criting a bassicly already dead target and then non critting 3 autos in a teamfight while you are at 70% crit yes that happens to

If league was a game. Where crits werent as strong teamfights lasted 6 times longer without minions PSEUDORNG would be fine

I ll repeat what we need

Every 4th auto starting with first/second/third/forth crits (Depends on crit item / item combination) There is a 6 second combat cooldown Crit dmg nerfed to 150% from 200%

This is what we need in order to have healthy crits. And obviously non legendary (expensive) crit items shouldnt exist They should build out of an item which says do X ammount of damage on your next basic every 30 seconds something along those lines Because crit is really unhealthy at small percentages and so would my suggestion be.. well not as unhealthy but unhealthy

With Rng on top of RNG Shiv definetly takes the cake as the most unhealthy item in a game. No wait probably after last whisper nomicon voidstaff bramble and hexdrinker . I guess hurricane is up there to.

The whole you dont have to build lifesteal - expensive items because you get it from runes is kinda far from true

You see even if you remove lifesteal AD carries wont build it til their 4th 5th item except for double doran

atleast thats what happens in high elo

And its not like Runes can compare to safety the BT DD give. BT alone can make twitch immortal while he is shoting

Ahristocats4 votes

Hello, i am Rubick Sama Currently day-1season 8 Diamond2 60 lp, Support and ADC main

{quoted}

ADC itemization is due to the meta and "peel creep".

does this even have a meaning?

ADC itemization is not due to anything but riot introducing an ADC itemization

It allows for a cheaper item set as less sustain allows for more damage.

Which is problematic

Botlane isn't the most powerful lane

on the opposite, it is

it is the most interactive which allows for more influence due to 40-60% of the team gaining a lot of opportunity.

i don't get this supposing what you said is right (it isn't btw) how should this stop us/riot from buffing top lane? and nerfing bot lane? even if 40-60% of the team gains "opportunities" this should not happen the game is not fun when a single lane has everything

as a support and adc main it is not fun when my adc/support is autofilled and we lane against experienced bot laners, then get stomped and there is nothing i can do against that because my toplaner cannot backup the game

Top lane buffs/ADC nerfs need to be strongly considered.

Nop

Lios Ashenblade1 votes

As a fellow support main I know that feeling all too well, basically unless at least 2 of your other roles are REALLY good, you ant make up for having a lame adc that doesn't know how to play their role.

Also I was wondering if you had any advice to climbing as support, I've recently started playing more adc and top to try and just carry myself out, but its not as fun for me, I like my support role

Ahristocats1 votes

W maxing Janna is one of the best thing to climb right now with item 3098 and aery

Alistar can carry hard a game unless 2 or 3 dudes in his team are terrible

Lios Ashenblade1 votes

the ole W Double tap lol, it really does hit hard, with aery and stuff involved

Elohaven4 votes

I understand you feel there are issues, but your post dismisses a lot of points I have supported. You're quick to dismiss them and state they're wrong without an explanation.

does this even have a meaning?

ADC itemization is not due to anything but riot introducing an ADC itemization

It has meaning. All players know ADCs are abusing relic shield due to overheal and fleet footwork's synergy with it. Supports use Guardian due to the shielding it provides. Yet, you state that ADCs don't build items based on the meta? That is illogical. ADCs have always built items based on the meta. The lethality meta introduced Miss Fortune, Jhin, Varus, and Draven.

ADCs built crit during the ardent meta and high-valued AD items due the ardent meta.

You cannot say "Event A is due to Event A happening". That's a paradox and is not an argument. By that logic, people can say "The flu is simply due to the world introducing the flu." Then where can we get a cure? Stop the world?

on the opposite, it is

I need you to give me your evidence that supports this statement. Else, you're just dismissing a point irrationally.

i don't get this supposing what you said is right (it isn't btw) how should this stop us/riot from buffing top lane? and nerfing bot lane? even if 40-60% of the team gains "opportunities" this should not happen the game is not fun when a single lane has everything

as a support and adc main it is not fun when my adc/support is autofilled and we lane against experienced bot laners, then get stomped and there is nothing i can do against that because my toplaner cannot backup the game

It shouldn't stop Riot from nerfing bot lane but it is to identify the true issue with bot lane. Riot's surveys indicated that the bot vs top lane issue isn't as big as the board's makes it compared to the sample they surveyed. If we took the statistic of those on the boards feeling bot lane is a primary issue compared to the parameter of players (part of the general population), the boards would be a few standard deviations higher than the general player population in general.

You state that your ADC/support is incompetent and you get crushed. You want your top laner to solve this issue when you lost your lane. Remember, your statement: "even if 40-60% of the team gains "opportunities" this should not happen"

Your lane loss gave a drake, free vision, more pathing, and easy rotations. The jungler, ADC, and support just got a huge advantage. Riot wants this to be a team game yet you want top lane to be able to solo-carry with a value equivalent to 2 people. Then you would have other parties of players feeling like they are weak.

the game is not fun when a single lane has everything

Agreeably, bot lane feels the most impactful due to its interactivity. Thus, the objectives, RNG of drake, and spread of interactions needs to be looked at.

Nop

Again, dismissing without any evidence or support. If top laners are buffed and ADCs are nerfed without though, ADC in 2k17 will become a meme for 2018 and a tank meta will come back. You will have wet noodle fights and that will detract players who enjoy action-packed fights. Remember, from Riot's survey, they state players do enjoy this type of scenario rather than dealing no damage. Riot stated the boards' views do not completely match up with the general population's and issues are drawn out of proportion.

Ahristocats3 votes

{quoted}

I understand you feel there are issues, but your post dismisses a lot of points I have supported. You're quick to dismiss them and state they're wrong without an explanation.

that's because they're too obvious to be explained

you tell me i should explain why bruisers who gets kited+destroyed in lane+easily snowballed on+have a more expensive itemization than a late game class is going to be terrible?

It has meaning. All players know ADCs are abusing relic shield due to overheal and fleet footwork's synergy with it. Supports use Guardian due to the shielding it provides.

So? They take overheal and fleet footwork with relic shield because it's overpowered i don't see what's the point of this

Supports do not take guardian, most of the time it's aftershock which is getting nerfed Guardian is actually getting buffed on pbe, cooldown going from 40 to 70-40 depending on levels but the shield is being buffed like a living hell

Yet, you state that ADCs don't build items based on the meta? That is illogical. ADCs have always built items based on the meta. >The lethality meta introduced Miss Fortune, Jhin, Varus, and Draven.

no, i didn't say anything i just said that your sentence made no sense or it was written in a way that did not make sense

ADCs do not build based on the meta ADCs build the most overpowered thing that exists in power

ADCs built crit during the ardent meta and high-valued AD items due the ardent meta.

kog never built crit and even during ardent meta your argument also does not make sense

because in ardent meta crit adcs are going to be meta, and crit adcs build.... crit?

I need you to give me your evidence that supports this statement. Else, you're just dismissing a point irrationally.

no i don't need to adcs+the support for the adc are holding too much power of the game right now they spike too early, are able to siege top/mid/drake/bot get everything

the midlaner impact and toplaner impact has been reduced to very little in fact you can check my history on opgg

every single game my toplaner int (a friend of mine) every single time i carry as blitzcrank

toplane impact is just 0 it doesn't matter if you int or not, you just need to pick the less trash champion in the meta

Then you would have other parties of players feeling like they are weak.

that's something else i don't know if it's right or not

but it doesn'tchange the fact that toplane is garbage right now and it's unacceptable

Again, dismissing without any evidence or support. If top laners are buffed and ADCs are nerfed without though, ADC in 2k17 will become a meme for 2018 and a tank meta will come back.

ADC in 2k17 was not toplane being overpowered

it was bot lane being so overpowered that it forced EVERYONE to go bot, top with tp, mid, jungle this made bot lane a clown fiesta every single game and i remember it

and if you didn't do this you lost, because bot lane would destroy the entire game

adc in 2k17 existed because adcs were overpowered, not because adcs were weak

it got solved by people picking jhin/varus and having the safest damage output in the game from 1500 range then riot nerfed them and buffed every single adcs which led to now adcs being MORE overpowered than before and top being inexistent

i would like to end this debate by the fact that your original post is heavily biased every single argument you presented can be seen influenced by you playing your main role which is adc

while my post is less biased, because as a support player i actually can feel the massive burden that is under our shoulders, us bot lane players, and can see how every single game top lane is irrelevant, because you can take a look again at my history and you will see how someone inting top won't matter

Elohaven2 votes

ADC in 2k17 was not toplane being overpowered

It became a meme because ADCs were once weak and quickly were strengthened.

i would like to end this debate by the fact that your original post is heavily biased every single argument you presented can be seen influenced by you playing your main role which is adc

We can all say our posts carry bias. I believe you don't understand my posts. I did say ADCs and top laners do need to be addressed with their gold disparity but people are exploiting the issue to give excuse to poor decisions/buffs they want. You confuse those statements with my other points.

I'm a top-lane secondary.

kog never built crit and even during ardent meta your argument also does not make sense

because in ardent meta crit adcs are going to be meta, and crit adcs build.... crit?

Because crit ADCs go with attack speed. Kog is a special case. E.G. every zeal crit item has crit and 30% AS coupled with movement speed.

they spike too early, are able to siege top/mid/drake/bot get everything

the midlaner impact and toplaner impact has been reduced to very little in fact you can check my history on opgg

every single game my toplaner int (a friend of mine) every single time i carry as blitzcrank

toplane impact is just 0 it doesn't matter if you int or not, you just need to pick the less trash champion in the meta

Again, I identified this in my post. Bot lane has a lot of interactivity that should be distributed. Now, your statements also introduce bias and introduce another dilemma:

Low Elo vs High Elo

There are skill discrepancies we need to address and look at which can cause different opinions/meta shifts. (E.G. How you can use anything in Bronze but are much more restricted in Diamond)

you tell me i should explain why bruisers who gets kited+destroyed in lane+easily snowballed on+have a more expensive itemization than a late game class is going to be terrible?

Again, confusion.

This discussion is getting a bit messy so let me summarize.

Bot lane gets easily snowballed on as well, thus "who has the better bot lane" comes in. Snowballing is a global issue and botlane is one of its main victims. I'm not denying ADCs need their itemization prices changed. It's a point I agree with. I am simply stating that top laners would need slightly more gold still as the stat benefits and kits they have could easily introduce a top lane meta and dictate the game by primarily defense.

Anyways, the current 2K-3K difference in kits needs to be changed. At most, I would say 1K for top laners. So we should increase crit item prices IMO.

GayFluffyUnicorn2 votes

Preach it brother.

Saitho Orihara4 votes

I love seeing those intelligent and well made point of view. It's refreshing from the braindead "FIRE THIS GUY !" or "NERF THIS BUFF THIS WTF RITO SO EZ TO BALANCE".

I'll agree that "peel creep" got a real impact on ADC itemization, you no longer have to worry about lifesteal or things like that, you have a Support for that. But still, crit are a problem, zeal items are so cheap for the massive power they give : item 3087 For 2600 I burst down people. item 3094 For 2600 more I make you burst down people more often AND from a safe range. This interaction between them always was a problem, I'm not against ADC getting some cheap items here and there but stacking cheaps items to get even MORE POWER ? Yeah no I don't want that. The classic item 3031 item 3087 item 3094 spike is ridiculously cheap.

Crit should be more interactive, yes you kind of control your crit% but still, if you are very lucky you can still crit 3 times in a row with only 20% crit chance. You should be litteraly able to control your crits. Maybe having something like if you have 20% meaning 2/10 AA will crit have that the more you AA you stack up until you get to that 2/10 (Or 1/8). Meaning that you'll crit once every 8 AA. It's a quick fix yes, it's not the best yes but it's still something.

The funny thing with Shiv and RFC is that you kind of control your crits, you slowly stack it by moving giving you a crit when at 100 stack so in a way, Shiv and RFC are well designed crit items, the problem is that they interact and are both very cheap for the power they give. I always had in mind that ADC should not get 100% crit, 50% crit (1 out of 2 AA crit) with lifesteal and all should be good. Kircheis Shard items should not be stackable, they should be like item 3748 item 3074 . RFC and Shiv are the same thing but they give different benefit : Longer range vs Burst damage. While item 3085 and item 3046 are very different they also are very cheap but don't give as much power.

Elohaven2 votes

PD+Shiv equally shred squishies. Zeal items in general would need to be increased.

How crit currently works is that if you don't crit before, you have a higher chance of critting. Say you have 50% crit, then you didn't crit 2-3 times. Then your 4th or 5th attack would have a 80-90% chance of critting. You could see this with your crit animation

Draehl3 votes

Nice writeup. I'd like to see ADC item cost go up as a support main also. The extremely quick TTK for ADCs is a problem because it really only rewards whoever lands the first initiation skill (IE Leona/Blitz) and doesn't factor in any sort of sustained fighting mechanics and often enough completely nullifies an HP advantage you might have created from poking well as a ranged support. This is the reason hard engage tank supports are so popular right now, because landing that one CC skill is all that matters. It's really punishing the whole idea of trading in lane, too. You make one minor misstep at 100% hp and still can wind up dead.

Trollmanship3 votes

Now how about we compare a bruiser who doesn't have a cancerous kit like Camille who can win the fight by surprise jumping Vayne and killing her before she can respond?

It's basically a battle between two assassins. Pretty much every fight this season is a battle between assassins, no matter who you're playing. Which is why champs that can't kill during their CC duration are pretty much trash, and so are champs that give any time at all to their opponent to respond before they jump on them.

Spank the Fox5 votes

Why is every ADC drawn to comparison as Vayne?

There are many less mobile ADC picks that get cucked the moment you jump on them, including Twitch and Kog’maw.

You don’t want to use Camille as an example for an arbitrary reason, then don’t use Vayne either.

Trollmanship3 votes

[{quoted}](name=Spank the Fox,realm=OCE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=jNQJFfXH,comment-id=00040000,timestamp=2018-01-14T07:57:20.694+0000)

Why is every ADC drawn to comparison as Vayne?

There are many less mobile ADC picks that get cucked the moment you jump on them, including Twitch and Kog’maw.

You don’t want to use Camille as an example for an arbitrary reason, then don’t use Vayne either.

Fair enough, but ADCs are made to excel in teamfights where the ADC's teammates can make up for their lack of 1-vs-5-ability that Vayne has.

Glory971 votes

And if camille wasn't able to one shot vayne before she reacts, she'd be utterly useless and unable to kill vayne at all, because vayne can lifesteal more than 50% of her hp within the animation of camille's w.

GayFluffyUnicorn1 votes

People call camille cancerous i call camille the best bruiser design currently available. Even if behind she is useful, she scales into lategame while NOT being able to oneshot you without reaction like a jax would do unless MASSIVELY fed since she ALWAYS has to wait 2 seconds for her true dmg Q nuke. Her lanephase if not for comet abuse has been one of the worst in s7. This is the entire dilemma we have. People are bad at the game and hate melee champs able to do their job. Camille due to her kit can do her job no matter the circumstance thus obviously low elo botlanes hate her.

WiegrafOfValor3 votes

3 Misconceptions you have because of your bias that totally be blow your argument.

  1. We don't want cheap bruisers and tank items, where the fuck did you get this idea? We want adc items to be expensive again, as they were, not so long ago, remember that buff? the one no one asked for?

  2. Okay buddy, you and your adc main friends will have to drop this attitude, calling "this will cause a tank meta" like bush did to 9.11 to push your agenda is getting old.

  3. I actually agree to some degree that ADCs ard getting too much sustain from sources outside their build, but blaming the support is not the way to go, their job is to save your ass, you want to take the little agency they have? just gut sustain runes, or even remove then all, wasn't spellvamp cancer? why I can have a rune that heals me from 2.5% to 15% of my physical damage of my spells?

Elohaven3 votes

By stating supports, I am just stating contributions - not attributing the issue to them.

We can remove runes like Legend:Bloodline for ADCs and force them to get sustain rather than the free LS and security the runes give.

We don't want cheap bruisers and tank items

Targeting the audience that states they want top lane and bot lane to be equal in gold.

Anyways, I would appreciate to remove anger (or chill) from the post. I do want this to be a relaxed conversation. Yes, I do agree that ADCs need more expensive kits. My favorite solution is increasing the price of zeal items.

And AP vs AD itemization with lifesteal etc. is a discussion I posted before. A Rioter noticed, stating they're looking into it. I'm waiting for a dev corner update or patch 8.4 before addressing anything.

xelaker2 votes

there's a lot of people who want their own items to be cheap man lol. everyone wants a good deal.

Poske3 votes

{quoted}

Hello, I'm Elohaven.

Currently, on this account, I am a Silver III ADC main whose secondary role is support. I play top occasionally if I am autofilled or can abuse an ADC there. Top laners currently face the issue of their item prices compared to ADCs and midlaners. They have the most expensive kits generally. The boards and reddit is filled with people who dislike the large price disparity between ADCs and top laners. This post is to discuss, analyze, and explain why this is happening, whether it should be an issue to be solved, and how we can address this issue.

Sorry to break it to you but you are silver 3 XD. Eh lets hear what you have to say

I will post my thoughts below to start it off.

Vayne item 3031 item 3087 item 3006 item 3036 item 3094 item 3026 14,900 Gold Camille item 3078 item 3053 item 3047 item 3748 item 3143 item 3194 175233

That is a 2633 gold difference. By the time a top laner is finished with their build, assuming both the ADC and top laner are receiving the same amount of GPM(gold per minute), the ADC will be ahead with two items.

There are multiple layers of issue. Towers grant to much gold. Crits are to strong of multiplyer, Crit is just dumb, exhaust is just dumb, Lulu W is just dumb, tenacity might aswell be removed since it does nothing, Melee champions who dont have %dmg reduction might aswell be removed from a game because they cant function in teamfights except for the few overloaded skirmishers

If any class should have cheapest items its the ADC. as they are the most item reliant class in a game. The problem is how fast they get to this items

However, that does not necessarily mean the ADC stomps the top laner. ADCs are squishy and can be bursted down. Bruisers, like Camille, can pop an ADC at full build with just four items - including boots.

Ugh this is what you dont unerstand. Toplaners dont win toplane. Junglers do. If you are playing ADC toplane exlusivly in high elo jungler ll know that one gank ll put carry behind so much that he ll keep getting stat checked. Now yes if you mention strongest no counterplay 15k range dash champion cammile who is curently challenger status champion yes she wont need anyone but that is exlusively cammile. Every bruiser should hard stat check any ADC in toplane aprt from quinn

If top laners had item prices as cheap as ADCs, then the snowballs in top lane would be monstrous and League would be determined by defense primarily. Tanks could easily abuse cheap items to conquer the game and we would be back to a tank meta. Early game conquerors would lose their advantages much quicker due to how cheap top laners item sets are - allowing them to easily catch up and sustain when behind. For example, Pantheon against Ornn would get stomped at level 5 if they both backed for items. Ornn would already have a full tier 3 armor item while Pantheon would have a lethality item. Another example would be Fiora and Jax where the advantages of Titanic or Trinity Force would come way too early. This would cause them to easily cut down squishies with their kits and dominate fights. Toplaners are meant to peel or get on to the backline or engage. Cheaper items would put them in a strong position.

I got cancer reading this. NO idea might aswell join ADC balance team. IN EVERY FKING MOBA MELEE CHAMPIONS AKA USSUALY BRUISERS CAN CARRY AS HARD AS Marskman and mages. Apart form Yasuo and Katarina NO MELEE LEAGUE CHAMPION DOES THIS.

Riot does not want the game determined by defense. It makes the game less exciting and action-packed. It will make new players go away. It will make people feel weak.

OK so its ok for bruiser to build 4 tank armor hp items and still melt in 4 autos OK OK OK i heard enough mightaswell hire him not like situation can get any worse

Peel Creep is an issue because it's the primary reason ADCs have the ability to pump out so much damage than previous seasons.

The fact that they dont need peel because everyone dies in 2 autos is a bigger issue. There are multiple layers of issues on layers but yeah this is one of them I dont expect silver to understand this though

No as it is not why botlane is so relevant. People state Riot has made ADCs the star of the show repeatedly - but ADCs have always been an important role. They are meant to be the main source of DPS and since Riot's beginnings. But why are they so strong now? Simply because of the map's structure, champion varieties, and synergy.

Riot actually calls them Marskman rather then AD ** CARRY** for a reason. Every role should be 20% of importance atm ADC has 40% importance while rest classes share toplane having the least

See, first of all, botlane is 40% of the team - thus putting botlane behind takes away 40% of a team's power. It also is next to one of the biggest objectives, drakes. In addition, it has a tower and a support who is behind will make the enemy team lose vision control. Lack of vision control leads to more gank opportunities, objectives, etc. and a snowball. It is very easy to get botlane tower due to two people there and this can easily turn to five with top's teleport, mid's roaming potential, and the jungler. Whereas, at top or mid, fights turn to a 3v2 or 2v2 easily - making a defense possible unless substantially ahead. In botlane, a 5v2 means a quick turret and objective due to ADCs being weak early and single-target early on.

It is very hard for botlane to get a botlane tower due to 2 people beign there. See it works in fking reverse just as well. If 1 person dies the other person should be able to waveclear on its own. And this is how it should be

You do realise its harder to win 1vs2 compared to 2vs3?

Botlane isn't the most impactful position. It is the most interactive, which people despise. Mages still pump out more DPS than ADCs if they can land their shots or spread their AoE damage well. ADCs are very simple to deal damage with. Riot fears allowing mages to deal more damage than ADCs on average because AoE in a teamfight is a very dangerous tool. ADCs single-target nature, in typical kits, are much preferred. They require an item for AoE usually unless their kits allow it - but the AoE from kits is smaller than mages without items. Players dislike botlane's loss as it does not just put two people ahead - it puts three. The jungler gets access to camps, ADCs and supports roam, etc. etc.

False. Every single mid main became a gank botlane main. Every single toplane main became a global ultimate botlane main or be a tank because its the least sucky thing to be once fights come. The only carries which do singletargeted damage are Vayne and Ezreal

ADC itemization is due to the meta and "peel creep". It allows for a cheaper item set as less sustain allows for more damage. Botlane isn't the most powerful lane, it is the most interactive which allows for more influence due to 40-60% of the team gaining a lot of opportunity.

Peel creep happend because of tenacity removal (mightaswell consider it removed), Armor and mr efficency removal (mightaswell consider it removal) General cooldowns going down, Undodgable Ezreal Q like abilities if you are on top of ezreal Or any champion with Ezreal q like ability. Exhaust. Slow on every fking item, ms on every fking zeal item

Also its not like carries are constantly getting peeled. They get peeled only once because by the time they would neeed a second time to get peeled the enemy team is already dead

Top lane buffs/ADC nerfs need to be strongly considered.

Again layers upon layers which you dont understand. The game needs much more complicated changes then nerf X AND Y

Removal of critical strike is a bad idea. A rework is unnecessary. Riot uses pseudorandom chance - a game design concept controlling RNG in crit. You can search it up. Also, it'll just make Riot buff ADCs in general.

Another pseudo rng dick rider. Yes might be slighly offensive but idk what else to say. Champions arent the only thing you crit You can be lucky in criting minions/low hp enemies but lucky in criting AOE jinx rocket 3 times in a teamfight

What we actually need as a system is this Every 4th autoattack starting with first/second/third/forth crits (depending on item item combinations)

You reduce crit damage to 150% because of this and viola

Removal of critical strike is bad. Removal of critical chance isnt

Kit reworks are not needed guys. It's numbers this season. Runes, items, or stats. Big reworks aren't needed even if a champ is annoying. Compared to a whole player population who loves X champion and is more valuable than a single entity, it means people love playing as him than people who dislike him.

Depends on a kit

Regardless AD carries should be far from the list

Ahristocats4 votes

i'm surprised that you had the patience to explain everything

i didn't :/

Elohaven4 votes

Your post is pretty emotional. I'm sorry I triggered you.

Sorry to break it to you but you are silver 3 XD. Eh lets hear what you have to say

If you're going to use rank to dismiss arguments, then you're going to have a bad time in debates.

There are multiple layers of issue. Towers grant to much gold. Crits are to strong of multiplyer, Crit is just dumb, exhaust is just dumb, Lulu W is just dumb, tenacity might aswell be removed since it does nothing, Melee champions who dont have %dmg reduction might aswell be removed from a game because they cant function in teamfights except for the few overloaded skirmishers

If any class should have cheapest items its the ADC. as they are the most item reliant class in a game. The problem is how fast they get to this items

Congratulations, this has been stated already via "peel creep". I already stated ADCs are getting their items too fast.

Ugh this is what you dont unerstand. Toplaners dont win toplane. Junglers do. If you are playing ADC toplane exlusivly in high elo jungler ll know that one gank ll put carry behind so much that he ll keep getting stat checked. Now yes if you mention strongest no counterplay 15k range dash champion cammile who is curently challenger status champion yes she wont need anyone but that is exlusively cammile. Every bruiser should hard stat check any ADC in toplane aprt from quinn

Nobody is talking about ADCs in top lane. You're confused.

I got cancer reading this. NO idea might aswell join ADC balance team. IN EVERY FKING MOBA MELEE CHAMPIONS AKA USSUALY BRUISERS CAN CARRY AS HARD AS Marskman and mages. Apart form Yasuo and Katarina NO MELEE LEAGUE CHAMPION DOES THIS.

I'm assuming you just couldn't comprehend the statement. All I said was if toplaners had items as cheap or could get items as fast as ADCs, they would be in a strong position. This was aimed at the target audience who were using the situation to get buffs to top lane.

Anyways, you're denying top laners would not be able to carry as hard as ADCs/mages if they were able to get their items as fast. Champions like Jax, Riven, Gnar, Illaoi, and Fiora hit a strong powerspike with their two core items. Let's assume that you got "cancer" from the point being if top laners got the same GPM as ADCs, they would build tank - which I never stated. Ornn is a tank, so I'm just showing he would easily negate Pantheon's early game quickly. With Fiora or Camille, they'd easily be able to dominate with how quick they get their items since ADCs take time to ramp up.

"No melee champion does what" specifically. You should clarify.

If you mean no melee champion abuses gold-efficient items, that's entirely wrong.

You're stating no melee champion engages, hits the backline, or has CC? I believe you need to review the points.

OK so its ok for bruiser to build 4 tank armor hp items and still melt in 4 autos OK OK OK i heard enough mightaswell hire him not like situation can get any worse

You complain I'm a Silver who doesn't understand, but you're failing to comprehend or read the post. Perhaps that is my communication error. Let me clarify, I never stated bruisers or tanks should be able to melt people with 4 tank items. You're taking my point out of context, mixing the words, and acting ignorant to the actual point. By core items, I am referencing typically titanic, ravenous, trinity, and black cleaver - the most iconic core items on top laners. Defensively, then we'd be talking about tanks which have a lot utility, damage reduction, or CC as they are tanks - not bruisers or juggernauts.

It is very hard for botlane to get a botlane tower due to 2 people beign there. See it works in fking reverse just as well. If 1 person dies the other person should be able to waveclear on its own. And this is how it should be

You do realise its harder to win 1vs2 compared to 2vs3?

You're not reading. I never compared a 1v2 and a 2v3. Where did you get this from? I remember stating 2v2 as the top laner can be supported by the ally jungler. The paragraph was meant to state why snowballing options become available. You're ignoring my points.

And no, the other person will struggle to wave clear on their own if they're not the ADC at times. Let's use your quote: "You do realize it's harder to win 1v2 compared to a 2v3?" A support, who lacks in damage usually, can't efficiently wave clear or will get poked down.

False. Every single mid main became a gank botlane main. Every single toplane main became a global ultimate botlane main or be a tank because its the least sucky thing to be once fights come. The only carries which do singletargeted damage are Vayne and Ezreal

Their attacks require them to focus on a single target - in games, we call this a single-target nuker. Splash damage, like Jinx's rocket is AoE. Correct. Tristana's E sure. Tristana is primarily single-target though. By the way, I am removing runaans and talking primarily about kits.

Marksmen are primarily single target in nature and are intended to be. Thus, you see them with auto-attacks (single target animations) rather than skillshots or spells(Ziggs, Veigar, Annie).

But I'm a silver, and I should believe some guy saying almost all ADCs are AoE. [sg-miss-fortune]

The fact that they dont need peel because everyone dies in 2 autos is a bigger issue. There are multiple layers of issues on layers but yeah this is one of them I dont expect silver to understand this though

"I agree with your point but you're still wrong".

This post simplifies a majority of things and introducing every aspect of the game adds layers of complexity that are hard to keep track of in an online discussion.

Also, show me a clip where everyone dies in two autos. ADCs still get peel - else supports, tanks, shen, and top lane would not exist and you would see 5 marksmen teams.

Again layers upon layers which you dont understand. The game needs much more complicated changes then nerf X AND Y

Man, I don't know if you noticed - but this is a simplification to allow people to discuss and expand in the comments. Anyways, let's say minions dropped more gold. It's still a buff for all champions, lanes, and players. Changes all fall into those two categories in the long run. We call buffs/nerfs another thing:

Benefits and Consequences!

Anyways, arguing over terminology and concept isn't the point of this discussion. Thank you for it though.

Another pseudo rng dick rider. Yes might be slighly offensive but idk what else to say. Champions arent the only thing you crit You can be lucky in criting minions/low hp enemies but lucky in criting AOE jinx rocket 3 times in a teamfight

What we actually need as a system is this Every 4th autoattack starting with first/second/third/forth crits (depending on item item combinations)

You reduce crit damage to 150% because of this and viola

Removal of critical strike is bad. Removal of critical chance isnt

I ask you keep apathy as your emotional state causes irrational comments and immaturity. Even as a Silver, I prefer a civilized discussion. You mock me for my elo but you post the most illogical statement ever:

Removal of critical strike is bad. Removal of critical chance isnt

When you add this, then it becomes easily abusable. I can easily just autoattack a creep three times and crit you for the start of a fight. Statistically speaking, random crit chance is healthier than allowing players to have complete control. It evens the playing field much more for all players. It is why pseudorandom chance is a game design practice implemented in a large variety of games.

Oh, by the way - since we're using "titles" to evaluate our point's worth - I also do code and design on games myself.

See how it's pointless to dismiss arguments based on titles?

#Conclusion

In essence, you're turning a blind eye to the fact that the post is a simplification and further clarification/break down is for the comments. Doing so in a disrespectful manner causes no incentive to have a thoughtful discussion. While dismissing other points due to rank, you're also saying you can dismiss a game designer at Riot even though they're Silver.

You have also decided to completely dismiss points and turn them into a string of words I have never stated. I ask you make a repost, but this time with more consideration in mind.

Thank you.

Poske1 votes

{quoted}

Your post is pretty emotional. I'm sorry I triggered you.

Here is a problem mate. Posting in this thread is complete waste of time. Any no ADC pro player / High elo player knows that ADC is to influencal. ADC not botlane strictly ADC

If you're going to use rank to dismiss arguments, then you're going to have a bad time in debates.

What argument did you present? You only made a really bad assumption that bruisers shouldnt have cheaper items.

Congratulations, this has been stated already via "peel creep". I already stated ADCs are getting their items too fast.

There are layers upon layers upon layers. I only listed 3/10 of issues which bruisers have to suffer

Nobody is talking about ADCs in top lane. You're confused.

I'm assuming you just couldn't comprehend the statement. All I said was if toplaners had items as cheap or could get items as fast as ADCs, they would be in a strong position. This was aimed at the target audience who were using the situation to get buffs to top lane.

Except Toplane mains have every right to ask for toplane buffs. Now granted 99% of players have no idea what should be done globally to league to fix it including riot balance team

Anyways, you're denying top laners would not be able to carry as hard as ADCs/mages if they were able to get their items as fast. Champions like Jax, Riven, Gnar, Illaoi, and Fiora hit a strong powerspike with their two core items. Let's assume that you got "cancer" from the point being if top laners got the same GPM as ADCs, they would build tank - which I never stated. Ornn is a tank, so I'm just showing he would easily negate Pantheon's early game quickly. With Fiora or Camille, they'd easily be able to dominate with how quick they get their items since ADCs take time to ramp up.

What are you even trying to fking saying here. You think those champions carry games on the level ADC DO? AHAHAHAHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHAHAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHAHAHAHAHAHHAH

Gnar has extremly weak snowball, Illaoi cannot force anything and gets outranged by botlane so she has bad snowball to, Jax cannot teamfight at all, Riven is forced to take fking troll rune if she wants to have impact in fights (lower flash cd), Fiora doesnt even need powerspike

I understand in silver those Smurf rivens might make you think that you can take over a game with riven. But that is because smurf riven aint up against smurfs.

"No melee champion does what" specifically. You should clarify.

No melee champion carries a game teamfight impact wise Except for already mentioned Yasuo/Katarina on a level a ADC can or even some mage inb4 you mention Gangplank and few others fine 5/60 melee champions at best can impact teamfights like a mage / adc can.

However every single ADC except maybe Jhin decides teamfight ultra hard. Mages used to be on par with that but even them compared to carries fall short granted melee champions cant even outimpact most mages

This issue doesnt exist in any other moba. Yet you are questioning power of your main role

If you mean no melee champion abuses gold-efficient items, that's entirely wrong.

In general ranged champions abuse items more. But I wanted to talk about above

You're stating no melee champion engages, hits the backline, or has CC? I believe you need to review the points.

You complain I'm a Silver who doesn't understand, but you're failing to comprehend or read the post. Perhaps that is my communication error. Let me clarify, I never stated bruisers or tanks should be able to melt people with 4 tank items. You're taking my point out of context, mixing the words, and acting ignorant to the actual point. By core items, I am referencing typically titanic, ravenous, trinity, and black cleaver - the most iconic core items on top laners. Defensively, then we'd be talking about tanks which have a lot utility, damage reduction, or CC as they are tanks - not bruisers or juggernauts.

So should bruisers be able to melt or shouldnt they? As I sad layers upon layers which silver wont understand I ll make a large thread in which I ll talk how to address every single gameplay issue (except jungle) in league and there are a lot of them

Where did I make you think that brusiers should melt people with 4 tank items wtf? #I MEANT THEY SHOULDNT FKING MELT WITH 4 TANK ITEMS WHICH IS WHAT IS HAPPENING ATM

They are getting melted not DOING THE MELTING. I guess I confused you there?

So of course they have bruiser like damage when they only last 1 second longer. except for those Reworked exceptions like xin, shen, galio and others who got %dmg reduction BECAUSE ARMOR AND MR AS A STAT ARE BAD

You see? Layers upon layers

And no, the other person will struggle to wave clear on their own if they're not the ADC at times. Let's use your quote: "You do realize it's harder to win 1v2 compared to a 2v3?" A support, who lacks in damage usually, can't efficiently wave clear or will get poked down.

Level 3 any support can surely defend against 2 level 3 enemy laners. Yes there comes a point in a game where you have to distance yourself from a tower because the enemy botlane ll dive you that happens around level 8 though

Their attacks require them to focus on a single target - in games, we call this a single-target nuker. Splash damage, like Jinx's rocket is AoE. Correct. Tristana's E sure. Tristana is primarily single-target though. By the way, I am removing runaans and talking primarily about kits.

You really cant remove hurricane and shiv. In no way shape or form can you remove those. No game is played without those

Marksmen are primarily single target in nature and are intended to be. Thus, you see them with auto-attacks (single target animations) rather than skillshots or spells(Ziggs, Veigar, Annie).

Marskman intention is to do damage doesnt matter how. I do agree in season 1 - 2 it seemed like they wanted them to be singletarget focused

But I'm a silver, and I should believe some guy saying almost all ADCs are AoE. [sg-miss-fortune]

Fine their itemization which they always build makes them AOE 10/10

Your thoughts on my crit changes

When you add this, then it becomes easily abusable. I can easily just autoattack a creep three times and crit you for the start of a fight. Statistically speaking, random crit chance is healthier than allowing players to have complete control. It evens the playing field much more for all players. It is why pseudorandom chance is a game design practice implemented in a large variety of games.

So You see right here I did the same thing you did. Over simplification

Dont act like you oversimplificate things when sorry but as silver 3 you do not understand the game on the level us high elo players do

there is also NOT A SINGLE THING FKING WRONG WITH MY CRIT Suggestion I just oversimplified it. But I actually oversimplified it unlike you who thinks he has any idea what is wrong with league, i ll make a big post with balanced crit rework.

If you dont think there is anything wrong with league, ugh thats even worse

Crit damage is nerfed to 150% There is a 6 second combat cooldown so no you cant prep for a teamfight ETC

I DIDNT MENTION THAT YOU SEE BECAUSE I OVERSIMPLIFY. you see how that turns out?

you cant oversimplify, league is not at such state. League is a complex game with complex issues withing complex issues

I just wated my time replying to random Silver 3 main with his extremly biased thoughs which go nowhere 10/10

And yes elo matters I cannot just value your opinion on the same level I can value high elo player opinion As harsh as that sounds

Since season 1 have 20 000 k league games and I am ex challenger. YOU are way to far from that

Hopefully you understand issues on a more deeper level now and I apolagize if I am to harsh good luck to you

Elohaven3 votes

The whole post is about the issues with League.

Yes, it's a complex issue but for a singular post aimed towards discussion - I aimed to just give an overall glimpse.

Anyways, everything seems cleared up. I agree with most of your points and already pointed them out in other discussions. The critical rework idea you have should be in another thread. I don't believe this is a place to argue - especially since it's influence is complex in detail.

Thank you for the discussion.

I do want to clarify:

  • I always agreed with top lane buffs but people have gave poor ideas. By strongly considered, I meant that the changes for top laners should be thought out on their global impact from early to late, runes, and champ select.

I believe we have the same agreements but just a miscommunication.

ADCs with runaans and their AoE is a separate issue. IMO, I believe no ADC should be able to have multiple targets when it's a mage's job. Only their kits should introduce a small form of AoE. Runaans as an item and shiv allowing ADCs who shouldn't have good wave clear freely clear waves is an issue.

This is tangent but that's my thought on that area.

Śhunpo2 votes

Ok, so, while I agree that ADCs are incredibly overrated on the boards....I do think that the items ADCs build need at least a 200 gold price increase, just to make them work harder to get to that dream 2-3 item powerspike.

Additionally, a slight gold reduction for bruiser items would be fine and wouldn't make snowballing that intimidating. 17533 gold is a LOT of gold, and most of it comes from the bruiser of choice's 3 item core of Triforce/BC+Titanic+Sterak's, which is actually almost a full 2k more than an ADCs 3 crit. item core.

Also, you bring up Lifesteal. Currently, ADCs don't even need lifesteal until like 4th-6th item since they get it purely from runes, their support and Relic Shield pretty much makes laning phase incredibly safe for them. Fleet Footwork is an issue, and I don't know why Riot buffed it the way they did. Right now ADCs who previously struggled in laning phase can now take Fleet Footwork and suddenly their amount of deaths decreases drastically and they become monsters in the midgame because of its scaling with crit.

Elohaven3 votes

I've stated the life steal issue. If ADCs were forced to get it, you would notice their builds much closer to a top laner's. Top laners need more expensive items due to their kits, mobility, and ability to destroy an ADC with two items usually. It is why they have high AD scaling because they are forced to be tanky. If they had items as cheap as ADCs, it would throw off early game and make them too strong - determining the fight purely by defense.

Their health, tankiness, and damage would be too much. Definitely though, ADCs need a slight gold increase in their items.

Śhunpo1 votes

{quoted}

I've stated the life steal issue. If ADCs were forced to get it, you would notice their builds much closer to a top laner's. Top laners need more expensive items due to their kits, mobility, and ability to destroy an ADC with two items usually. It is why they have high AD scaling because they are forced to be tanky. If they had items as cheap as ADCs, it would throw off early game and make them too strong - determining the fight purely by defense.

Their health, tankiness, and damage would be too much. Definitely though, ADCs need a slight gold increase in their items.

They need more than a slight gold increase. 600-800 gold increase in their overall build would suffice.

Glory972 votes

In my opinion crit needs to be reworked. Not because of the RNG, but because how dependant adcs are on crit. One crit item alone is very weak, but a 3 ore more item crit build outclasses everything. I don't think there should be an itembuild that allows to outclass everything else by that much in lategame. If the crit items are expensive, it's too hard to get enough items for the synergie, and adcs are useless. During the laning phase they can be bullied too hard by mage supports, pretty much what we've seen 1 year ago "adc 2k17", if crit items are made the slightes bit cheaper it turns into an adc-only meta, where anything beside adc and supp is almost irrelevant. I'd prefer if we went back to when adc were not dependant on crit. When the adc bought infinity edge+ statiks to get 35% crit chance, but the bloodthirster stacked up ad. This way the adc is not utterly useless in early game and not that ridiculous in lategame. I really don't like the weakness of "counter that champ early or it's lost".

Lios Ashenblade2 votes

Was playing one last night against a vayne we had basically shit on in lane, we make it to mid game she has 1 and a half items... item 1001 item 3031 item 3086 ... she poked the adc twice while we were doing the preteam fight dance, both times she crit, and took like a third of their health

Elohaven1 votes

Yet, that is the point of different game periods. Teemo falls off. Assassins fall off. Nasus gets powerful as the game progresses.

Early game champions should stop their enemies from farming and end quickly. They should abuse their kits or force fights early to get objectives quicker and win. It is your choice to pick an early or late game champion. Critical chance is meant for lategame ADCs who are easily punished early.

Vayne, Twitch, Tristana, Caitlyn, Sivir have always been ridiculous late with critical strike. That's their advantage.

Glory971 votes

Im not against having differerent champions strong at different stage of the game, but crit-adcs are just too ridicolous in lategame. A full build crit-adc can burst squishies faster than burst mages. Idependant of any cooldowns and not skillshot reliant either. I don't want adcs to be bad or average in lategame, but instead of doing 2x800dmg crits each second maybe 2x650 dmg. crit-adcs would still be strongest in late-game, but not so strong that the whole enemy team dies in 5 seconds if you have a full build twitch. Lategame crit is so strong that anything else (aside from maybe peel-supp) becomes irelevant.

Elohaven1 votes

I believe AD in general is stronger than mages in the lategame when it comes to burst unfortunately. Riot is looking how to make mage itemization healthier but AP is also hard to balance due to their waveclear and high damage. Hence they are not allowed to crit as AP champs. AP champs also have a lot of utility in their kits often.

I believe champions like Annie and Brand are good examples of late game AP champs with high AoE damage in teamfights.

Twitch is an issue in himself since his AoE and stealth shouldn't be allowed with his range and damage. I believe Twitch is a unique entity warranting champion-specific nerfs.

ADCs themselves, them being single-target, should be able to nuke each other. The amount of DPS they have compared to their defenses logically means they'll burst squishies. Though, their current damage and scaling needs to be looked at definitely.

It's just simply hard for me to state where to nerf. I would state gold increases to crit items looks like the best solution but the AP vs AD issue is a large dilemma we have failed to address for a while.

xelaker1 votes

riot killed off the lifesteal heals for days items when grievous wounds is on all sorts of stuff and champ kits and crit became cheaper. why try and heal when I can just kill the enemy?

undesirable team1 votes

why would you build item 3036 on vayne, if you're against tanks you're going to do damage to them through your w and brute force of your auto's, item 3153 much better option imo

xelaker1 votes

You hit on something I always bring up and get nagged to death for. Adcs have expensive items, but everyone wanted peels, heals, and shieeeelds so the adc doesn't need lifesteal. On top of that lots of items bring healing reduction so there isn't really much of a point in trying to heal yourself when a dead enemy does the job better.

SanKakU1 votes

Not sure if that Vayne build is actually good as I don't own her, but for a lot of other Marksmen, no lifesteal would be a big no-no.

Death's Dance lets you solo Dragon, Bloodthirster lets you lead your team, Blade of the Ruined King can help you secure kills or save allies, and Mercurial Scimitar was never a very good Marksmen item so much as a melee ADC's item.

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