Before you make a post about balance...

Sir ArmaMalum··498 votes·203,204 views

http://media2.giphy.com/media/ic9U7hTpHIycw/200_s.gif

#1) Skill level

No matter what, different champions will do better or worse at different skill levels. Eventually it becomes a question of whether you'll do better abusing player mistakes (Blitzcrank) or abusing champion strengths (Lee Sin). Know that when people comment they very well may be looking at the champion pool with a different lens.

#2) Professional Play

To properly gauge a champion's strength in terms of balance you need an even playing field. Outside pro-level play the skill of the player can be a match's downfall as much as the champion. Pro-level play is the closest one can get to an even playing field between champions and thus the best way to analyze where the balance of the system itself stands.

This is not to say balancing for lower levels doesn't happen, but it happens much less because it is difficult to cater to certain skill levels without adversely affecting everyone else.

This doesn't invalidate your opinion in any way, but I hope this help explain why a champion's impact in professional play draws out balance changes faster than in normal games.

#3) Design Core

As stated by Scarizard here there are many factors that play into balance decisions. One of the larger bits of Riot's balance philosophy is that balance is geared towards platinum and above play, as it is generally regarded that games below that rank have just as much power disparity from player skill and understanding as it does from actual system balance.

This does not in any form devalue the opinions and feedback of lower ranked players but if you are confused about a recent balance decision you need to keep in mind where the balance is revolving.

#4) Reasoning

If you don't explain why you're not happy with the game's balance, then why should we read your post? How can we possibly sympathize with you? In other words, "I lost" is not a valid reason for a champion being OP/UP.

#5) Current Environment

Many times in a season champions that haven't seen play and received no change can suddenly be bumped into popularity/viability and become a dominant pick. Most of the time this is because the meta around said champion changed to a much more favorable match up for said champ. Keep that in mind when you're confused about a nerf out of nowhere or a buff to a counter somewhere along the way.

#6) Prioritize discussion

If you come expecting a Red response and you're going to be dissapointed with every comment that isn't a Red comment. Guess what, you're going to be dissapointed. It's much easier to draw out a Red by spurring conversation among the community. It's much easier for the Red in question to respond to a comment on a more specific subject than it is directly to a post.

Many, many people unwittingly create trap posts about balance. Posts that breach multiple topics or different avenues of thought towards the same topic, allowing the OP plenty of room to rebut literally anything a counter-argument can bring.

You must be willing to listen to others if you expect to be listened to.


######2/25/15 ---- re-worded Pro-play section ######4/24/15 ---- reminder: guys, I'm not a Red. Just by the way..... ######5/19/15 ---- Added Design Core section for more accurate statement on Riot policy ######10/15/15 --- Added Current Environment section

577 Comments

Flay and Pray318 votes

After his retirement from the exiting life on science, Bill Nye went on to do bigger and better things. Gameplay balance. He now works at Riot Games, and keeps the peace. He always has his ion you. His current jobs include:

  • Feeding Ghostcrawler
  • Keeping IronStylus's Leona fanfics under control
  • Feeding the parrot
  • Nerfing Irelia
  • Staring at the boards complaints and ponder his favorite type of ice cream

As you can see he is very very important to riot games and they could not function without him. As a wizard of the dark arts, and his many theories on glorious evolution he mains Veigar and Viktor. And single handedly called for the removal of DFG, to make the game harder. He was just winning too much.

But in all seriousness thank you for making this. Everyone should have to read this before posting on the gameplay/balance boards. You have my upvote good sir.

Sir ArmaMalum29 votes

Not gonna lie, I chuckled. +1

Knight Devout65 votes

You can't keep fanfics under control. If it fits, I ship.

Omnem Occido40 votes

He always has his ion you.

As a Chem major, you don't know how much this made my day.

Retillin50 votes

[{quoted}](name=Sir ArmaMalum,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=jLGvQ3Wk,comment-id=,timestamp=2015-01-30T16:27:47.850+0000)

If you don't explain why you're not happy with the game's balance, they why should we read your post? How can we possibly sympathize with you? That is all.

This is so correct. Sadly it's hard for most people to understand.

VDc0zCqe0w40 votes

i made like 2 or 3 long posts explaining everything carefully, got like 1 upvote at most, random dude makes a topic with a meme + 5 random words, 88 upvotes

i just stopped making them, there is no room for reasoning here

Mutsu Hanma5 votes

I agree, if people are not gonna take balancing seriously, how can riot get better?

Personwithhat13 votes

I've made about 4 threads, each 2-3 pages long, carefully thought out and posted.

Very few replies, here's a sample stupid one.

"Post to long, didn't bother reading. Basically fiora ult is so complicated it's hard to use."

That !) ignores my fiora ult change suggestions + explanations post and 2) is a stupid comment.

BlackMagicWilson9 votes

Flashbacks to +400 up-voted post "Fuck Mobility Creep; Its getting retarded."

TendajiX15 votes

Honestly, the minions should not be able to follow me from my turret to red buff............. STAY IN LANE MINIONS

ZT Xperimentor15 votes

Still seeing lane minions following a jungler to another lane, then dieing from the jungle monsters on their trip back, laughably priceless.

KING OF MASKS38 votes

Should probably be a sticky.

RiotRiot Sweet75 votes

[{quoted}](name=KING OF MASKS,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=jLGvQ3Wk,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2015-01-30T17:21:29.186+0000)

Should probably be a sticky.

And Done!

Blackquill26 votes

[deleted]

coeurloyal41 votes

A Red in the wild, huh...

Penguin Eclipse32 votes

[{quoted}](name=Sir ArmaMalum,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=jLGvQ3Wk,comment-id=,timestamp=2015-01-30T16:27:47.850+0000)

I know, you're not a professional so why be balanced like one? Well, simply put, pros bring out the most of a champion. By definition they are the best in the world and the ones that define where the skill of the player stops becoming a factor and the system itself is put into question. Hence why the balance always shifts for pros much faster than others. Until you're on a pro level you as a player have room to expand as far as how well you do.

No one expects you to play at a pro level, but at the same time if a pro can abuse a certain aspect of a champion why leave that capacity for abuse in the game for you to work towards?

That's one of the biggest misconceptions of all. What's the difference between Pros and those in high tier Diamond? One plays League all day and gets paid to do so. The other doesn't.

The Pros are not the best in the world. They are simply among the best. Anyone in high Diamond, Master, or Challenger could be a pro if they were paid to play League and that was literally what they did for most of their day. There are many in Platinum that would play at the same level as the Pros if they spent half as much time playing League as the Pros do.

The fact that Riot balances around a small handful of top tier players is problematic.

chumbler30 votes

You might have a point if all the careful, polite, reasoned feedback that was given to the Cass rework didn't go straight into the trash bin. People would give that kind of feedback if Riot had ever given any actual indication that it wasn't a complete waste of time and energy.

Good job sucking up, though.

yellowbricks26 votes

{quoted}

You might have a point if all the careful, polite, reasoned feedback that was given to the Cass rework didn't go straight into the trash bin. People would give that kind of feedback if Riot had ever given any actual indication that it wasn't a complete waste of time and energy.

Good job sucking up, though.

I love this post. Agree 150%.

Why should we bother writing college level dissertations on something when it's perfectly clear that riot just doesn't give a shit? I am appalled that this thread got a sticky within the first page, whereas all the times we asked a damn rioter to sticky their own really important "discussion"* threads on Cassiopeia just went unheard and it got buried under the rest of the rabble rather quickly. Apparently all you have to do is post like a pseudo moderator wannabe and cash in on some random bit of childhood nostalgia to get riot eating out of the palm of your hand. Maybe if we shouted lol random blues clues references at stashu he would have changed everything for the better.

*discussion in this context means everyone posts well reasoned essays like the OP wants us to do, and stashu just brushes it off and continues ruining the champ, and then disappears after everyone gets stockholm syndromed by "muh winrates".

TheGrandAlliance21 votes

LOLOLOL this thread (and the fact that it is a sticky) is EXHIBIT A as to WHY RIOT GAMES /EPICFAIL

**1: What players think of the game is only thing that matters in the end. ** LCS and its pro-players do not sustain the "revenue stream" of this game. In fact supposedly LCS COSTS Riot games money by itself due to the lack of popularity and thus profitability of "Esports" especially outside of Korea. If players /ragequit and LCS is only left this game is done and bankrupt.

2: Consider "skill level" of players regarding champions and balance? Last time I checked less then 30% of total champions in this game (up to Season 5 Summer) (if not less then 20 total) are EVEN USED in LCS play. "Consider the skill/professional level"? Yes... most champions are AFK in LCS. CONSIDER THAT.

When I see 100% effective cross region participation of all champions on the same patch maybe we can talk about "champion diversity". Of course that is never going to happen if RIOT insists upon releasing loser champions month after month. Sona is still waiting for her "rework rework" ye know...

3: The arguments 3/4/5/6 are justitem 3070 item 3070 posts of a RIOT fanboy. THere is epic amount of pages on threads of posters giving walls of texts about gameplay issues and done so in a tasteful manner. Saying that "O we don't care because most people just rage without reasoning" is a diservice to all the effort some people put into their posts.

IN short... this OP is a /riotfanboy, the fact it is a sticky proves that RIOT couldn't care less about playerbase, and furthermore what is even funnier is that the logic used in the post is self-contradictory. If "balance" in this game is "just fine" and "lets all stop complaining about RIOT"... then WHY ARE LESS THEN ~20 CHAMPIONS EVER EFFECTIVELY USED (on all metas) IN LCS? WHY ARE THERE SO MANY THREADS ABOUT BALANCE?....

Yes plz explain to me that one O GREAT OVERLOARDS OF JUSTICE!....

If there was nothing wrong with the balance... the population wouldn't be questioning it so. We do not question gravity effects but yet it "exists". Yet we question this game's balance and other mechanics like no tomorrow... the questions themselves means that there is a problem, perceived or otherwise.

Bill Nye, the Science Guy: Man of Science and of the Scientific Method. Consider the Following? Consider that Riot Games isn't a religion... and thus everything is subject to the Scientific Method... gameplay balance or otherwise. Theories of Balance and the tests of them thereof. Alas misguided and unenlightened threads such as this one are self contradictory indeed.

BTW Bill Nye==Seattle; Riot Games==LA

As a Citizen of Seattle Land myself... I do believe my "Bill Nye Observational Powers of Science!">uz Global Warming denier. I even have a Nye Labs Poster in my room, sadly enough perhaps.

Indeed it is so...

Serenity Now18 votes

[{quoted}](name=Sir ArmaMalum,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=jLGvQ3Wk,comment-id=,timestamp=2015-01-30T16:27:47.850+0000)

http://media2.giphy.com/media/ic9U7hTpHIycw/200_s.gif

No matter what, different champions will do better or worse at different skill levels. Eventually it becomes a question of whether you'll do better abusing mistakes (Blitzcrank) or abusing strengths (Lee Sin). Know that when people comment they very well may be looking at the champion pool with a different lens.

Generally true, but terrible examples.

Blitz isn't played competitively, because he capitalizes on mistakes as you noted. So all he does is inflict misery in lower leagues. This type of one-trick pony champion is a good example of a bad design pattern.

Lee is played in every league, because he is strong in every league. This type of kit-overload champion is another good example of a bad design pattern.

These champions have legitimate design issues. Players may not articulate their concerns correctly, but when the volume of complaints is high then there probably is something there for Riot to look into.

Sir ArmaMalum5 votes

Keep in mind, however, that I am not trying to spark any debate over design but use common examples. Whether or not the design is good or bad is irrelevant because as far as the application is concerned I want to to use examples that a majority of players (who are in lower tiers) will recognize.

Serenity Now10 votes

Sure, but what I'm saying is that even bad players can recognize something that isn't fun. They may not be able to put their finger on it, but that doesn't mean we should dismiss their opinions.

skippersd7 votes

You are wrong. Blitz is one of the best designs in the game. He has one stupidly broken ability, that can both help (grab the carry) or hinder (grab the karthus) his team, and has a clear counterplay (don't get grabbed). Also, he's kinda noothing without his grab. Thesh on the other hand, has a similar grab (Smalled displacement), but you can't make bad plays with it, then he has 3 other strong abilites. That's why no one would pick blitz most games.

Diostukos16 votes

{quoted}

You are wrong. Blitz is one of the best designs in the game. He has one stupidly broken ability, that can both help (grab the carry) or hinder (grab the karthus) his team, and has a clear counterplay (don't get grabbed). Also, he's kinda noothing without his grab. Thesh on the other hand, has a similar grab (Smalled displacement), but you can't make bad plays with it, then he has 3 other strong abilites. That's why no one would pick blitz most games.

That's actually kind of why Blitz's kit design is fucking awful.

He has one ability that makes or breaks him; god-like lategame hook on the adc that wins the game, or a hook you miss and are useless until it comes off cd. It's kind of similar to old Nidalee, the only difference is that her Q's cooldown was much shorter. "just dodge the spears" wasn't a good argument for Nidalee, and it's not a good argument for Blitz.

lB2kGRlc8y8 votes

I love blitz, but I can understand what you're saying. I've had games where the enemy team is filled with the typical hyper-mobile no risk whores that riot's producing in their sweatshops nowadays, and not landing a hook on the ahri that can use 1 of 3 stacks of her r to sidestep it gets me flamed by team and enemies alike. Blitz suffers tremendously from team synergy, if there isn't any, landing hooks can damn your team rather than winning skirmishes. The biggest issue I have personally is how flaky his hook's mechanics are. It's hitbox seems to change on a whim, as sometimes a clear shot will grab a minion standing close behind you rather than doing what it was intended to, or its range will extend past the indicator in some scenarios.

Killer X 1217 votes

I think professional play is actually what is best at revealing something is NOT balanced.

Why are certain champions pick/ban 100% of games in professional play? Because the best and most knowledge players in the world realize they are the HANDS DOWN the BEST at what they do. We see changes based on what goes on in pro play pretty often. 100% of the games i've been a part of recently (since that c9 Kalista game) the Kalista has gotten fed (12+kills less than 3 deaths). This is true when she was on my or when she was on the other, whether i was bot lane or whether i was not.

She part of the reason i stopped playing normals upon her release. Saw her to often, and if you laned against her it just wasn't fun. Like old school Irelia, or people who actually play like giant dicks when they are teemo.

While i think many of the posts on the forums about gameplay and balance are unfounded, its not like the ones that give valid arguments are taken anymore seriously than others. We've all be on the forums long enough to realize that.

TotalJerk2 votes

By the logic of following what the best players do, should we just resort to nerfing anything Faker uses?

Killer X 122 votes

No, and i don't think anyone else thought i meant that. Basing nerfs on one player is obviously stupid. Basing nefs on dozens of professional teams across the world that all play in different metas, with different styles, strengths and weaknesses makes a bit more sense.

TotalJerk4 votes

You were suggesting that balance only be judged by top-tier professional players. That kind of thinking creates a game that is only fun for people who don't play for fun.

ForgiveColour16 votes

-Lee op j4 balanced

-zed laning op AzirKassadinCassiopeiaLeblancLissandra balanced

best

Tis a nice day14 votes

But, but what about all the torches and pitchforks I've been saving for those buff Sona and nerf Lee Sin threads?

Arveanor13 votes

Save them for the "Riot is dishonest and money grubbing" threads. Gotta get your money's worth on those pitchforks.

RoG Vahn13 votes

consider the following......

Katarina Riven MasterYi http://media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lsbfy6UEsO1r0n79p.gif PENTAKILL!

Spacesuit Spiff10 votes

About the pros, one aspect of balancing around them that nobody really talks about is that their level of skill (if not their coordinated 5v5 meta) shows what the game is supposed to look like. A lot of things are OP in silver because people refuse to adapt to them (Eve has always been incredibly punishing to people who refuse to buy pink wards, which got her completely gutted in season 1 when people complained about it). A lot of things that are OP in silver just get the response "well then why don't you learn to deal with it properly", same can't really be said for pro play.

A lot of silver players think they're as good as it's possible to be (for some reason), and I'd rather Riot didn't balance the game around their refusal to improve.

Sir ArmaMalum14 votes

I think it's a bit more complicated than that what with differences between team play vs. solo play, limiting skill floors and other factors, but in an overarching point I believe you are right. However, that does not mean a point made by a silver player isn't valid, it just requires reasoning outside of their own experiences.

lDontLiftIcarry10 votes

OMFG bill NYE THE SCIENCE GUY BILL BILL BILL BILL BILL +1 my child hood science classes.

0VeNSt7X2Y10 votes

There is no balance in LoL, Riot either makes a champ completely strong or makes them completely useless.

Korkin7 votes

{quoted}

There is no balance in LoL, Riot either makes a champ completely strong or makes them completely useless.

AMEN.

Leti the Yeti9 votes

problem with your perfectly reasonable tips

any perfectly reasonable person with an actual argument already tries his best to take this into account anyway

raging nooblords, the target audience, i assume , are too filled with frustration to be constructive anyway

The Ecdysiast9 votes

Why doesn't it include the fact that Rioters don't actually pay heed to our opinions? They don't have teams set up to look at the boards. In fact, another summoner posted a thread about the point of boards and a Rioter actually replied that it is NOT to talk to them, it's to talk among ourselves. So, why the hell good does it do to complain to ourselves? We can't change the game, and they don't look at feedback on the boards. This is just a way to make us think we're getting to change the flow of game, when it's not the everyday players and customers they care about.

Sir ArmaMalum11 votes

Because believe it or not, talking with other people may teach you something, change your viewpoint or change someone else's viewpoint.

The Ecdysiast7 votes

Changing viewpoints on something that needs to be fixed doesn't solve the problem. A lot of people could start going to healthcare.gov and that wouldn't make it any better of an idea.

The fact we're all just throwing ideas and agreeing each other on here means nothing because they aren't watching.

Sir ArmaMalum11 votes

Riot's communication policy right now is bad, I agree wholeheartedly and have had pointed discussions on it in numerous occasions with others. However, how does that invalidate discussion with your peers? If you have a good idea or a well-thought out opinion then there's a good chance someone else does in the thousands of others roaming around. If you refuse to consider someone else's opinion how can you expect to have yours considered?

InsaneSamurai8 votes

None of these things matter. Everyone who disagrees with you will still troll you and downvote everything you say, regardless of how much you explain anything.

What Is An Meta8 votes

Mentions professional play when only like 0.000001% of games are professional http://i.imgur.com/oeEoOzH.gif?noredirect

Robby Dawg7 votes

Balance is impossible. But make the system better. Dominate KDA, outward, outplay, but have a DC and lose match, so lose LP. Your ranked system is just fucked dumb. Can't overcome your feeder, lose LP. Etc... plenty of cases where you outplay lane, outplay most game, but can lose because of one or two people constantly making bad plays.

SarcasticShepard7 votes

To be honest, you could replace the whole block of text with one line: "Riot doesn't care."

Drunk Rummate6 votes

Regarding your points on professional play and how others see balance, it should also be kept in mind that the game turns out very differently from a solo-queue perspective compared to a team-queue perspective.

Many champions can feel impossible to beat due to the general lack of coordination that comes from queuing alone, and/or the lack of voice communication. Many champions may perform significantly worse for the same reason.

Rueian4 votes

The game should stop being balanced at all levels, and only be balanced at the highest level of play.

TotalJerk15 votes

Then everything below Challenger will just be people spamming cheesy freelo champions. The game will essentially be an absolutely shitty experience until you are at that level, and because of that it will fail to retain many players.

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