Can we start giving Lee Sin the Shaco treatment?

Mael bro·Dec 31, 2015·53 votes·3,939 views

I mean they both are almost the same damn thing. A super mobile counterjungling, counterganking pain in the ass. I am honestly surprised that the same person didn't create them both.

100 Comments

AyRe CoNteMpTDec 31, 201538 votes

only that shaco has counterplay while lee sin doesnt

SquidsmastahDec 31, 20153 votes

"only shaco has counterplay and lee sin doesn't"

Poppy Poppy Poppy Poppy Poppy Poppy Poppy Poppy Poppy Poppy Poppy Poppy Poppy Poppy Poppy

Subject 5Dec 31, 201519 votes

{quoted}

"only shaco has counterplay and lee sin doesn't"

Lee sin has an ult for that actually.

falldown010Dec 31, 20152 votes

[{quoted}](name=Subject 5,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=jKEAbj7s,comment-id=000000000000,timestamp=2015-12-31T16:28:02.625+0000)

Lee sin has an ult for that actually.

^ kick her away, before she can ult

IcyPepperDec 31, 201529 votes

That's a counterpick, tho.

Subject 5Dec 31, 201525 votes

{quoted}

That's a counterpick, tho.

More like a situatonal counterpick. Lee still has many advantages over Poppy, probably because his kit has pretty much everything you would ever want.

Heckin SupportJan 1, 201615 votes

{quoted}

That's a counterpick, tho.

Wait did someone really just intellectually distinguish a difference between counterplay and counterpick? You do know this isn't allowed in the forums right? You'll probably trigger someone.

IcyPepperJan 1, 20165 votes

What if I told you...

whispers right next to your ear

... counterbuilding and counterplaying are two different, but often related, things.

Heckin SupportJan 1, 20165 votes

You best be careful, if the wrong person sees this comment they will be triggered.

MelledoneusJan 1, 20163 votes

TRIGGERED!

SUXGSMDOXHSIZHXIS XUSOWODJXIDKDNXJ

IcyPepperJan 1, 20164 votes

Multiple people have been triggered.

salutes

ĘbbAndƒloweyJan 1, 20161 votes

Eh, counter building is something that requires knowledge to do, such as building Hex drinker against Rumble on Riven. Counter playing is often just skill based and changes your play style, such as saving your e on Riven against Rumble (In SOME situations it's still the better choice to engage with e due to the animation cancelling. Such as under your tower or if you see jungler bottom and you're ahead a flash ew animation cancel is devastating.) I can see where they are often related, but it's still a stretched one.

IcyPepperJan 1, 20163 votes

shrugs

The point of my comment was that the two are often confused for one another.

Building zhonyas for the stats against Zed would be a form of counterbuilding. Using the active to dodge a global ult, AD or not, would be counterplay.

That's all I'm saying. Maybe "often" might be going too far, but I consider item actives to be a form of counterplay born from counterbuilding (because you still have to use them, although you could make the argument for some item passives I guess...).

ÑapoleoniJan 1, 20162 votes

TRIGGERED

Remlap1223Dec 31, 201517 votes

Can we stop defending that cancer champion? Seriously, no one enjoys playing against a Shaco. I don't know what it is with boards and Eve and Shaco, but they need to stop defending both of them because neither of them have healthy kits, nor was the game in a better state when they were top tier.

AyRe CoNteMpTDec 31, 201510 votes

shaco really is fine design wise. eve is not. big difference.

UirayaDec 31, 20155 votes

Shaco's engage is better, has cc on normal abilities, and has an actual disengage if he makes a mistake. The comparison is laughable; if an enemy team is doing well with Eve they'd be doing well with anyone. Whereas if I see an enemy Shaco I know I'm going to have a miserable game (unless he's fucking terrible, but you can hardly count on that). Both of them need considerable attention, but to pretend they're anywhere close to each other on the frustration scale is ridiculous and doesn't help anything.

ParaBellamDec 31, 201510 votes

Shaco's CC isn't particularly high and playing him is literally teetering on a tightrope. If you don't manage mana, good luck getting out of a fight with a 90 mana escape/engage tool. If you fall behind early, you are pretty much useless most of the game. You can build tank, do whatever you want, but you're going to have a really rough time.

Most Shacos you see are good because he's that niche of a champ that the only ones that play him (aside from occasional "Hmm, what's this champ?" players) tend to be good.

Lee Sin can build tank and still deal damage. If he falls behind, he becomes a strong peeler for an ADC. Shaco can build tank and... hope the other team walks into his boxes? If he falls behind, he can pretty much dick around and do nothing noteworthy.

In fact, not just Shaco. Most assassins, once fallen behind, become useless. Lee Sin is the only one that (notably) doesn't.

Mael broDec 31, 20152 votes

{quoted}

Shaco's CC isn't particularly high and playing him is literally teetering on a tightrope. If you don't manage mana, good luck getting out of a fight with a 90 mana escape/engage tool. If you fall behind early, you are pretty much useless most of the game. You can build tank, do whatever you want, but you're going to have a really rough time.

Most Shacos you see are good because he's that niche of a champ that the only ones that play him (aside from occasional "Hmm, what's this champ?" players) tend to be good.

Lee Sin can build tank and still deal damage. If he falls behind, he becomes a strong peeler for an ADC. Shaco can build tank and... hope the other team walks into his boxes? If he falls behind, he can pretty much dick around and do nothing noteworthy.

In fact, not just Shaco. Most assassins, once fallen behind, become useless. Lee Sin is the only one that (notably) doesn't.

I beg to differ.

Akali - can still delete squishies even when 0/5 Katarina - does this need any comments? you can get stomped in lane 0/4, get a lucky double kill bot and still come back and carry the game. It's ridiculous.

MelledoneusJan 1, 20161 votes

Never heard of either of those ladies. Are they the shopkeepers for Dominion or something?

UB3R 1337 H4XJan 1, 20162 votes

I dunno either, you think they were introduced in the same patch as this guy Yorick ? I saw him earlier today but I think he afk'd...

IceemberJan 1, 20162 votes

I agree with the Kat analogy as she is generally pretty strong.

As for akali though: her power largely revolves around gunblade and if she doesn't have one by 15 minutes she loses a very valuable powerspike. A 0/5 akali will generally be late on gunblade as between death timers and I'm assuming a lack of farm will hurt her massively. It's pretty hard to delete squishies at that point. I'd say on her 0/3 would be my limit on deaths before I lose advantage and a game like that would see a pretty even kda.

UrPalAlJan 1, 20163 votes

It doesn't take away from the fact that Shavo and Eve both have a very cancerous kit. Sorry, but neither of them will ever be allowed to be strong unless their kits are completely changed. Until then, they will live the life of Urgot and pre-rework Poppy. ESPECIALLY Eve.

UltimatesplashJan 1, 20161 votes

idk jack about eve, but shaco is fairly strong.

UrPalAlJan 1, 20162 votes

He is, but if he crosses a certain line, he would be instantly nerfed. He's also strong in a different fashion. He can be strong in the right hands, like pre-rework Poppy for example. Take shaclone as an example, some people can do a good job at abusing these types of kits. (Also Unicorns of Love Poppy)

IcyPepperJan 1, 201613 votes

Shaco is one of those champions that I know I'm going to die and give first blood at my second buff camp, but nobody on my team ever gives me shit for it because nobody cares and he falls off hard in the late game.

He is one of those champions designed for a strong early game and a weak late game, and unlike some champions that are strong early and barely fall off in the late game, Shaco actually delivers on that promise and falls off.

And that is a design I can respect.

doombotMECHAJan 1, 20169 votes

the other cool thing about shaco is that playing him is an art form. those expert murdershacos that rack up giant killstreaks? they're practiced, they know what they're doing. they got up in the morning and said "i will master fear. i will main it."

IcyPepperJan 1, 20165 votes

Indeed.

But I have faced those Shacos. I have applied lube after dying to first blood.

They may have mastered fear, but I must be brave and face that fear.

Mael broJan 1, 20162 votes

{quoted}

Shaco is one of those champions that I know I'm going to die and give first blood at my second buff camp, but nobody on my team ever gives me shit for it because nobody cares and he falls off hard in the late game.

He is one of those champions designed for a strong early game and a weak late game, and unlike some champions that are strong early and barely fall off in the late game, Shaco actually delivers on that promise and falls off.

And that is a design I can respect.

If you're against a teamfight comp i can agree. If they don't have a legit wombo combo, you'll end up splitpushing anyways. A 6 itemed Shaco is the most feared assassin in the game. But a 6 itemed Shaco shouldn't exist, because he should have already won before 20th minute mark.

ADepressedLeonaJan 1, 20162 votes

{quoted}

Shaco's engage is better, has cc on normal abilities, and has an actual disengage if he makes a mistake. The comparison is laughable; if an enemy team is doing well with Eve they'd be doing well with anyone. Whereas if I see an enemy Shaco I know I'm going to have a miserable game (unless he's fucking terrible, but you can hardly count on that). Both of them need considerable attention, but to pretend they're anywhere close to each other on the frustration scale is ridiculous and doesn't help anything.

Shaco literally becomes useless after 20mins, aside from becoming a split push bot

But I agree that his early game is absolutely infuriating to play against.

A Miss FortuneDec 31, 20152 votes

Shaco's kit really isn't "fine" in how it was designed. I think Stonewall, a famous veteran Jungler made a video about how Shaco's kit is inherently broken because of how it's nothing but revolving around cheesey mechanics.

He's a garbage champion mostly because there's always a jungler that outclasses him in any category you can think of. He's an AD Assassin that relies on his abilities, most of which are avoidable and have decent cooldowns, but he also has only two auto steroids that aren't really that powerful. Falling behind early game means you're utterly worthless and you might as well of just played AD Janna Jungle, though getting ahead early game (The only part of the game his kit does well in) means Shaco is so frustrating to deal with and his auto steroids hurt a lot if he does get ahead.

AyRe CoNteMpTDec 31, 20153 votes

its the same with many champions except that shaco brings it to a new level. still hes fine because he can be dealt with at any point in the game even if it means sacrificing a little bit yourself to make him fall off instantly. its absolutely fine.

evelyn is not fine because of her permanent invisibility. i mean shaco is a full cheese champion but many champs in league are like that, except some of them are very strong so it doesnt seem that way.

A Miss FortuneJan 1, 20163 votes

I'm not saying that Evelynn's kit isn't even more poorly designed than Shaco's, but Shaco's kit isn't fine at all and both of them need a rework not only for the sake of gameplay but both of their kits are so outdated.

AyRe CoNteMpTJan 1, 20162 votes

well evelyn needs a rework because of her theme as "stealth assassin" with permanent stealth which is simply stupid because it cant be balanced.

i can explain it to you:

she is an assassin so her job consists of 2 things. a) she has to get into damage range of her target b) she has to be able to deal significant damage
if she can do both things, permanent stealth is WAY too strong and if she can only do one of these things, it doesnt make up for the weakness. right now, her physical constitution is too weak to be a meaningful threat but if it was stronger, she would instantly be almost uncounterable due to her invisibility. this is why evelyn will never be in a good spot. she is either rather weak or completely overbearing. she needs a rework which removes the permanent stealth as a concept. it doesnt fit with the layout of league of legends.

its the same problem that yasuo suffers too. for an assassin/fighter champion, he has EVERYTHING in his kit that this class needs. he has gapclosers, escapes, burst, dps, hardcc, follow up cc, a massive damage boost from his passive. thats really good for a fighter/assassin champion because he can get onto you and theoretically deal the damage he needs to deal to kill you. sadly he ALSO has INSANE utility in his kit that negates alot of the natural counterplay he would have as an assassin.

this means, if he DOES deal enough damage to kill his target, he is completely broken and there is almost no counterplay and if he DOES NOT deal enough damage to kill his target, then everything else he brings to the team is not worth the lack in damage. this is a black or white scenario with no middle ground. right now, yasuo is relatively weak, just like evelyn, and there is no way he can be balanced, just like evelyn. thats why he needs a rework, just like evelyn.

SHACO on the other hand has PLENTY counterplay. sure his invisibility is annoying but it is short range short duration and none of his other abilities is especially hard to play against nor does anything he has super crazy synergyze with the invisibility.

shaco is countered by wards, by creative jungle routes, by patient laning and by literally everything that has to do with him not outnumbering his target. even tho it IS annoying to play against him if you are a beginner, it is not imbalanced or even toxic. it has plenty of counterplay and countermeasures that you can learn to use to become a better player.

when i was leveling up my first account i thought master yi is like the strongest champ in the game because he runs at me and ill die 100% but now, even tho i still respect him, he is one of the champions i fear the least. all more experienced players will feel similar about shaco.

Elkington IVJan 1, 20162 votes

You clearly have never run into a good AP Shaco, or any true Shaco main.

Shaco can honestly build however he wants and still have a strong impact on the game when played well. I've even seen tanky and on-hit Shacos style on people in the Diamond range.

He may be a cheesy champion, but he is far from garbage.

ĘbbAndƒloweyJan 1, 20162 votes

The problem is both of them are assassins. Good games are going to be amazing for them. While bad games are easy losses. Eve is more team oriented but has bad ganks if you are at all playing safe. I haven't seen Shaco be able to team fight well in ages but has great gank potential even if being warded out. Lee sin combines both of them into a "high skill cap" which is laughable with Thunderlords r n champion that has little weakness. His ganks are still great while warded out, has amazing clear speeds, has a disengage, has high champion damage, mobility, team fight potential... He literally has everything this season needs. Shaco... Doesn't. Yes, I never want to see a Shaco because he's annoying. But that's sorta all he is. I've won more games against a good shaco than I've won against a good Lee this season. Lee being zero and shaco having close to a 70~80 percent ratio. Lee is very oppressive this season, and almost as oppressive as Rengar. Both of these assassins having easy to reach "good games." Eve doesn't have that. Shaco, sure it's easy to do, but he still fails at team fighting. Which this season likes to do even earlier than normal. That's just my two cents. I'll let you have your opinion, just felt like throwing mine out too.

A Miss FortuneDec 31, 20152 votes

Everything has counterplay if you just use a item 2043 . Like Lee's Q for example.

TheFleetAdmiralJan 1, 20162 votes

[{quoted}](name=AyRe CoNteMpT,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=jKEAbj7s,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2015-12-31T16:24:28.409+0000)

only that shaco has counterplay while lee sin doesnt

I know you all hate lee sin, but to be fair lee's Q can be dodged, shaco has no skillshots. Lee has to place a ward before he hops, while shaco does it at will and goes invisible. I dont understand how shaco has counterplay compared to lee, sure lee is overtuned, but just hating isn't going to balance the game.

Captain AishiDec 31, 201514 votes

you're right, shaco has stealth in his kit and lee sin doesn't, that needs to be remedied immediately!

TyaldanDec 31, 20157 votes

yeah, he cant see you so you cant see him. i can see lee sin needing that. But it might be too weak, lets make it immune to pink wards too.

XeroKimoJan 1, 20165 votes

{quoted}

yeah, he cant see you so you cant see him. i can see lee sin needing that. But it might be too weak, lets make it immune to ~~pink wards~~ true sight too.

Captain AishiJan 1, 20164 votes

we'll call it pure stealth, you can't see lee sin when he's not looking at you! (although the idea of a champion that enters stealth by looking away from a champion does sound kinda funny)

Slamurai JackDec 31, 20157 votes

Lee Sin has no counterplay but Shaco does? You're gonna have to explain that one to me.

DealthDec 31, 20151 votes

You see, lee sin is known as being a "high skill" champion. So when someone (like the OP) dies to lee sin, they know that it was their fault. To protect their ego they blame it on the champion by saying that they are OP. So saying "Lee Sin has no counterplay" is like saying "The game is rigged to make me lose". When In reality Lee Sin is loaded with counterplay. His whole combo relies on him using a skill shot which is dodgeable. Also, his ult can be messed up if you move around him.

Mael broDec 31, 20159 votes

{quoted}

You see, lee sin is known as being a "high skill" champion. So when someone (like the OP) dies to lee sin, they know that they got outplayed. To protect their ego they blame it on the champion instead saying that they are OP. So saying "Lee Sin has no counterplay" is like saying "The game is rigged to make me lose". When In reality Lee Sin is loaded with counterplay. (such as dodging skillshots and positioning yourself for his ultimate to be bad)

We all have our delusions.

UirayaDec 31, 20155 votes

The counterplay Lee Sin is loaded with is his, to use against enemy champions when he makes twelve or thirteen mistakes in a row and suddenly needs to run away.

Mael broDec 31, 201510 votes

{quoted}

The counterplay Lee Sin is loaded with is his, to use against enemy champions when he makes twelve or thirteen mistakes in a row and suddenly needs to run away.

Counterplay to Lee? don't get in the range of his ultimate and dodge a spammable manaless 1750 speed projectile. You failed to do that? You just got outplayed. Scrub.

SwapShadowsDec 31, 20157 votes

the delusional people saying shaco's design is fine and that he's in a good spot.........

I understand that lee sin is annoying but that's just ignorant.

Mael broJan 1, 20162 votes

{quoted}

the delusional people saying shaco's design is fine and that he's in a good spot.........

I understand that lee sin is annoying but that's just ignorant.

His design is bullshit, but he's average.