Let's discuss AP itemization

Malicious Metal··141 votes·13,422 views

Now, after meme-ing the mage circle jerk let's actually discuss the "issue" with mages. Which is the lack of diversity.

The items fulfill their job and mages are performing decently well but over the past few seasons AP itemization has become stale and extremely unsatisfying, especially compared to AD ones.

So, instead of whining over Mages being "weak", let's talk about the actual problem that is mage itemization:


Problem numero uno: Mages are forced into the same core build

Burst, Control, Assassin, every mage builds basically the same nowadays with item 3151 item 3135 item 3165 being extremely common, especially Morellonomicon just being "too good" as it just provides too much for its price and thus condemns other items to be mediocre and unsatisfying. It's so good that I even started rushing it on Mordekaiser. https://www2.pic-upload.de/img/34017251/Bildschirmfoto2017-10-02um11.05.07.png

https://www2.pic-upload.de/img/34017254/Bildschirmfoto2017-10-02um11.05.01.png

Which leads me to propose this fix: Introduce more "core" rush items for mages that cater to their specific needs and niches. Currently Morello is too good on every AP champion and just feels mandatory.

I suggest adding items similar to the ones in Black market brawlers, albeit with changed stats, that support certain AP play styles.

Pox Arcana for example being core on AoE and burst mages with Netherstride Grimoire being used on kite mages. Make these items unique, making mages unable to get all of them so that they're not just getting stacked with enabling passive effects. Most of these items should have mana, though CDR should be given out more sparingly, especially to burst-oriented builds.


Problem numero dos: We need more item variety in terms of Pen and battlemage itemization

With preseason mages are losing some mpen and unlike lethality and armour pen, MPEN is only present on three items item 3135 item 3151 item 3020

And even then these items don't really seem to support certain niches but are rather mandatory. I suggest we get more items building out of item 3136, providing certain end game items to fill niches like Tank-busting (%bonus Pen), squishy bursting (Flat pen) or sustained damage needs (Basically AP black cleaver)

Rylais too, has to be reworked imo to better support a sustained damage play style and I even suggest removing the permaslow for a windowed, more flexible and skillful form of CC on the item.


And numero tres: Some items need to be heavily retuned and their niche has to be explored better

item 3285 item 3157 item 3089 item 3070

Deathcap in particular needs a component item, or rather a "mini rabaddons"

Tear can use some rethinking too


And lastly, a rule of thumb, which I think should serve as the main rule when reworking Ap itemization: #High AP values should not be matched with CDR

Sustained damage mages should opt actively into CDR and burst mages should prioritize big, juicy AP values. There's a problem where EVERY mage gets 40% cdr, it devalues the importance of certain high impact spells and makes mage niches overlap.

250 Comments

Best princess EU29 votes

as a mage main, my wishes:

Nerf item 3165 , ap should be reduced to at least 80 if not 70 item 3102 item 3157 remove cdr, increase ap to 100 and tweak the price to adjust the items item 3089 better build path item 3116 buffed while making it healthier item 3285 3200 gold for this? you must be doing jokes riot, reduce the price to 3000 item 3812 spellvamp would be appreciated

the reason spellvamp was a problem is because you could get it during laning phase, making vladimir too broken and other manaless mages like kennen

if you make a 3600 gold item that gives sustain to mages, i think it would be balanceable

BTZ2 votes

{quoted}

as a mage main, my wishes:

Nerf item 3165 , ap should be reduced to at least 80 if not 70 item 3102 item 3157 remove cdr, increase ap to 100 and tweak the price to adjust the items item 3089 better build path item 3116 buffed while making it healthier item 3285 3200 gold for this? you must be doing jokes riot, reduce the price to 3000 item 3812 spellvamp would be appreciated

the reason spellvamp was a problem is because you could get it during laning phase, making vladimir too broken and other manaless mages like kennen

if you make a 3600 gold item that gives sustain to mages, i think it would be balanceable

Ap itemizations talks about death dance ugh what?! I would look at gunblade because its the only way ap champs get lifesteal unless they are kat and they can build dd no problem

Blackstone0115 votes

He talks about it not that it needs to be an AP item, but that APs need an item like it that gives spell vamp.

RankOneUganda9 votes

{quoted}

as a mage main, my wishes:

Nerf item 3165 , ap should be reduced to at least 80 if not 70 item 3102 item 3157 remove cdr, increase ap to 100 and tweak the price to adjust the items item 3089 better build path item 3116 buffed while making it healthier item 3285 3200 gold for this? you must be doing jokes riot, reduce the price to 3000 item 3812 spellvamp would be appreciated

the reason spellvamp was a problem is because you could get it during laning phase, making vladimir too broken and other manaless mages like kennen

if you make a 3600 gold item that gives sustain to mages, i think it would be balanceable

you're definitle a kat/akali main.

The steam life2 votes

I think that those changers are good except for nerfing morello heavily as you would be putting that power into another item but you would just be nerfing the first item power spike which is where mages tend to shine at 1-3 items

DeathBurst3 votes

I'd be really hesitant about true Spellvamp.

The problem about Spellvamp wasn't ONLY that it was available in laning phase. Even if you had kept Will of the Ancients without a Spellvamp component, you still have the problem of having to make the stat interesting for a super wide range of patterns, from Annie and Lux to Vladimir and Ryze. I'm not convinced it would be balanceable, even outside of laning phase.

RiotNot Surrendering22 votes

AP items usually have CDR so that they are not so spiky (power in burst damage) as a 1 item purchase. Though as a design tradeoff, it means we need to give the item stats in other scaling categories (eg. CDR, %health damage), which leads to things like CDR creep.

Agree that we need more choices in AP itemisation, however it's a reasonably big project and the designer needs to be careful they don't power creep the system, which is hard to do.

I wouldn't say the system is all bad though, there is still some choice between Liandries/Ludens and Void/Zhonyas/Banshees/Hat are also all situational in 2nd/3rd slot too.

DeathBurst3 votes

Thanks for the input on CDR.

Can you have a look at that other comment I made, especially the part in the middle about Mana? (But of course, any comment on any part is welcome ;) ) https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/jHAgghMg-lets-discuss-ap-itemization?comment=001a

Thryale1 votes

Hi Trading! Thanks for chiming in :)

Would you agree that this is something that would have to be handled as another "pre-season makeover" like the runes reforged? As I agree that it will definitely require a major overhaul of the existing system.

That being said, those major power spikes are some of the reasons that players play mages to begin with, and I'm not entirely certain that it's inherently a bad thing either. Especially now, considering that the overall powerlevel of the game has gone up so much since when I started playing back in 2010. Fights are so much faster, and can end mere seconds after they start.

In fact, I just made a post replying to another player in this thread considering how the game has aged and how mages haven't quite aged as well as their AD counterparts. Here's a link if you'd like to check it out: https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/jHAgghMg-lets-discuss-ap-itemization?comment=0025000000000000

Long story short, I feel like the original concept of what a mage is was created in a world where the game was a lower paced system and mana costs and CD's were more meaningful, but as the game aged, and the pace of combat sped up, both players and riot have sought out ways to help mages adapt, and not all of which have been healthy for them. (like how players constantly seek ways to trivialize mana and cd's, and how riot has been lowering mana costs a lot since I started playing)

So in that respect I feel that's one reason why mage itemization lacks the luster it rightly deserves.

RiotNot Surrendering12 votes

Yes I think so. It would be sized as a mid-season project I'd imagine; something like the Defensive items changelist that brought in stoneplate and such.

With the CDR creep, mages have kind of homogenised more towards sustained damage dealers, though I wouldn't say they haven't aged as well - mages are still playable.

Ahris5 votes

[{quoted}](name=Trading Stance,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=jHAgghMg,comment-id=002c00010000,timestamp=2017-10-03T03:22:47.361+0000)

Yes I think so. It would be sized as a mid-season project I'd imagine; something like the Defensive items changelist that brought in stoneplate and such.

With the CDR creep, mages have kind of homogenised more towards sustained damage dealers, though I wouldn't say they haven't aged as well - mages are still playable.

Would you consider making items for burst mages(no cdr but purely for damage)? Thanks!

RiotRiotRepertoir17 votes

If we undertook the project, that definitely seems like a consideration to make, if for no other reason than to test its effects on the modern game.

Votable Jester6 votes

When AP items do get reworked, can artillery mages be kept in mind?

I main Xerath, and currently, I'm fairly happy with my build (item 3165item 3285item 3020item 3151item 3135item 3089 and 20% scaling CDR runes).

With the new runes though, I'll need to add at least one extra CDR item (item 3102/item 3157 in place of item 3151/item 3285 or item 3158 instead of item 3020). My issue with this is that those items are all serious drops in damage (a loss of 30 AP and Luden's passive or 10 AP, 15 mpen, and Liandry's passive) for relatively defensive items.

While many of the runes will be providing supplemental AP/damage, being forced to build a "defensive" item for optimal offense, feels a little lame. I likely will do precisely that (probably item 3102 almost every time) as long as necessary, but I'd like the option to build glass cannon without sacrificing offensive ability for that.

Basically this isn't an actual gameplay problem (it will still feel quite normal in terms of damage and cooldowns of course) but rather a gameplay fantasy problem. I like the fantasy of a mage focusing purely on his offensive ability at the risk of being taken down when caught off guard. Just allow me to build pure offense without losing out on offensive ability.

Obviously my playstyle isn't optimal every game, and I will adapt to those more defensive items when necessary (hello Nocturne). I just like being able to play a risky build when I want to.

Thanks for reading, and I hope this didn't come across as remotely aggressive. If you have balance reasons to not allow this playstyle in the future, could you let me know?

DrCyanide9 votes

[{quoted}](name=Trading Stance,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=jHAgghMg,comment-id=002c,timestamp=2017-10-03T02:50:16.205+0000)

I wouldn't say the system is all bad though, there is still some choice between Liandries/Ludens and Void/Zhonyas/Banshees/Hat are also all situational in 2nd/3rd slot too.

These choices often feel forced though, rather than feeling smart.

  • My champion's mana needs will determine if I start item 3165 or item 3070
  • Getting any boots besides item 3020 will sevearly impact my ability to do my job, since Riot's balanced around me buying these every match just like they balance ADCs around buying item 3006 every match
  • Up against a bunch of AD threats? Well, I'm forced to get item 3157 if I want to be able to live long enough to do anything.
  • There's a lot of AP threats, or a burst mage/assassin? Well, I'm forced to get item 3102 if I want to live long enough to do anything.
  • Still getting melted after I bought item 3157 or item 3102 ? Well, at least there's some decent stats on item 3151 and the health will help.
  • item 3089 is so expensive that most of the time it just straight up isn't an option.
  • What's left? Well, item 3135 item 3285 item 3116 or the other defensive option. Pick item 3135 and one other, then call it a day.

There's no playstyle choice here, there's barely any decision making. AP Items feel like they belong in a Mobile MOBA that automatically purchases items for you with how binary they are.

CasterGilgamesh2 votes

if every mage item has cdr whats the whole damn point why not just decrease the cooldown of all spells per level and just give us the ap we want.... [sg-ahri-1]

Zero Skill Tank16 votes

TOP: 0 AP champions in top 10 played JUNGLE: 1 'AP' champion in top 10 played, usually builds runic echoes into full tank ADC: 0 AP champions in top 10 played SUPPORT: 1 'AP' champion in top 10 played, usually 50/50 with supportive items

Yeah, keep saying that AP is fine becuase there is 1 last lane where AP champions are still played. Clearly, inability of FULLY relying on physical damage means mages are super-strong. [zombie-brand-facepalm]

Malicious Metal49 votes

I only see one Tank in Mid and not a single Juggernaut.

Should I start a circle jerk about how Juggernauts are being crowded out by other picks?

Zero Skill Tank48 votes

Should I start a circle jerk about how Juggernauts are being crowded out by other picks?

Oh sorry, you haven't yet?

Anyway, there's a difference in scope between term 'juggernaut' that is a tiny SUBclass and 'AP champion' that cowers several playstyles from multiples classes.

Malicious Metal29 votes

Implying that: A) AP is in fact weak B) they are being crowded out by other picks C) I do not agree that their items need reworking

As a class they're in a decent spot, their items are not, especially not compared to the powercreeped AD and support itemization.

Zero Skill Tank9 votes

A) AP is in fact weak B) they are being crowded out by other picks

They obviously are. Heavy physical damage threats exist in a good or great state in all 4 farming lanes, APs have noteworthy presence only in one. Even there, AP champions usually suffer HEAVILY when matched against AD, until resistances come into play and full AD team starts to suffer from that.

C) I do not agree that their items need reworking

I wrote no such thing, you would need to be totally blind not to see that AP itemization sucks hard. But you did say that APs are fine, which nothing else than absurd level of bias from your side. You play juggs, you don't like getting kited, we get that.

Malicious Metal26 votes

A) There are several AP champions holding win rates in the 55%, so no, they are not as garbage trash-tier as these boards want people to believe

B) They are still the primary picks in the mid lane. Most mid lane champions that are AD are assassins and they fall off like a brick late game. Not having an AP damage source on your team heavily gimps your comp.

C) AP is fine, we do not need to power creep the game even more, Supports and ADC's blew everything out of proportions.

And I suffer more from ADC's than mages. Morde is extremely resilient to burst and saying I play Juggernauts is just a flat out lie. I play Mordekaiser, who plays more like an AP burst mage than anything else.

Other than that I play mostly tanks and mages, with the occasional Warwick.

Zero Skill Tank10 votes

B) They are still the primary picks in the mid lane. Most mid lane champions that are AD are assassins and they fall off like a brick late game. Not having an AP damage source on your team heavily gimps your comp.

So basically, you ARE noticing that AP champions have nearly no play outside of mid and you still defend your stance that AP is fine.

That's actually getting funny.

SSShutTheDuckUp7 votes

Well, the fact that we discuss "no AP team", but not "no AD team" speaks by itself. The very fact that we mention forcing enemy class (tanks) to inefficient itemization as a "strength" to a class (mages) shows much deeper problems.

The Yetii Rider4 votes

[{quoted}](name=Awesomeasf ck,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=jHAgghMg,comment-id=0004000000010000000000000001,timestamp=2017-10-02T15:05:33.285+0000)

Well, the fact that we discuss "no AP team", but not "no AD team" speaks by itself. The very fact that we mention forcing enemy class (tanks) to inefficient itemization as a "strength" to a class (mages) shows much deeper problems.

No AP teams are a very recent phenomenon. They did not exist before the juggernaut update to The Black Cleaver. That's not really a symptom of poor AP itemization as it is letting top laners amplify mid and bot damage along with their own.

SSShutTheDuckUp7 votes

It actually is. No AP items are impossible because AP have no real answer to tanks, so teams NEED marksmen. And if are gonna say "AP is mandatory as well" - there is a big difference: Marksmen are needed to kill tanks, AP is needed so that enemy tanks are forced to build MR and allied marksman kills them faster than enemy marksman kills ours. Which is pretty lame

TEA Nietzsche 5 votes

Support: there are no 'AD' supports and frankly I don't think supports should be crowded out by champions that build AP heavy - it's never been healthy in the past.

ADC: it doesn't make sense to lump in ADC's with AD casters - they don't really share itemization in a positive sense, it's more that ADC's have the tendency to abuse and take over AD caster items - examples are: Bloodthirster (s3 RIP Bloodthirster), Ghostblade (rip AS), Black Cleaver (ADC's forced it to become more of a Juggernaut item), Trinity Force (AS changes in S5 I think), Deaths Dance (AD spellvamp gets used by AS based champions, thanks..). There are neither AD nor AP casters in that position.

Midlane: AP and AD casters with AD casters being superior overall.

Jungle: Tanks > Fighters > AD casters > AP casters

Toplane: Tanks > Fighters = AD casters

Note: I think comparing AD casters to AP casters makes more sense than comparing either to ADC's, supports, tanks or Fighters. AD casters are essentially assassins and certains skirmishers like Riven - they do not build tanky or AS based, their damage relies on their abilities.

DuskDaUmbreon5 votes

I mean, the death's dance thing isn't for the sustain 9/10 times, it's to survive an assassin. The only ADC I tend to opt into it for is Xayah, and that's because she has a fuckton of damage on abilities. Every other time is because they have a Zed/Talon, and I want to be able to survive long enough in a fight to actually get to attack their tank.

TEA Nietzsche 1 votes

I am not quite sure what point you are trying to make. I was giving an example of an item that was intended to be used by AD casters

Lifesteal as a stat for champions that primarily use abilities has always been an interesting space to work in, but often failed because the 'casters' in question lack the inherent durability to really start draining and instead just die on the spot.

but got abused by ADC's.

Atanchan2 votes

Intended for one class does not mean to the exclusion of another. You're out of your mind if you think Death's Dance wasn't designed with the intention of marksmen using it, it was just also designed to function as a sustain option that works for AD casters.

Heck, your logic falls completely flat in the first place, considering there are marksmen that are AD casters which means that it was intended for marksmen in the first place.

ProfDrDeath1 votes

item 3812 is not AD spellvamp, though.

It is healing based on 15% of physical damage dealt. Meaning, ALL physical damage. And in a game where the only higher achievable Lifesteal (which is still limited to auto-attacks) is only 20%, Death's Dance is a viable (and about equally priced) alternative for AD carries that value 10% CdR more than 5% Lifesteal.

TEA Nietzsche 2 votes

I don't see the contradiction. It has AD spellvamp which uniquely benefits AD casters but yet again has been used by some ADCs and nearly got it nerfed before Bramble Vest has been released. It also having Lifesteal is obviously what made ADC's attracted to it, but that really doesn't affect my main point and I don't see why everyone is so excited about one single example of my post.

OP Garen Support12 votes

Other then shittalking people that they complain on the boards about mages being way weaker then AD carries. Malicious Metal added nothing new to discussion which was not already stated by others. He is farming for upvotes by being an attention whore that he is so unique "mage circle jerk".

The guy literally opened a discussion about mages being played on midlane. (no shit)

Its beyond me how can anyone take him seriously at this point. "Look at me I play non Meta champ I'm so unique". I had my doubts that he is only an attention whore since he did have some good discussions going on, but it seems he only copies good ideas from others just to upvote farm and his own thinking is anything but logical.

Boards will always complain about something thats true, but if the problem is not fixed they will continue to complain about it nothing suprising there.

Malicious Metal22 votes

Damn, that'll show me.

OP Garen Support6 votes

Ah yes the fanboys arrived to defend you with the downvotes. You either deserve respect for not arguing or simply cant deny my claim.

Of course 3rd option exists you upvoted yourself with alternate accounts like the rest of the "famous" boards celebrities.

Skorch12 votes

I dont downvote you because of MM. I downvote you because you sound like a prick.

OP Garen Support2 votes

On my defense he was a prick as well. On his opinion anyone who tries to defend mages are idiots and instead he got a solution. He did not add any value since every point he mentioned was already mentioned before him. I simply do not agree with him belittling others just because he is a "celebrity" on the boards.

Skorch5 votes

Where does he belittle anyone? Main post? No. Majority of comments? No. His response to you? Sure, but you were incredoubly hostile and quite an asshole, so I think not taking you seriously was probably the best solution.

As well as EVERYONE says the same thing repeatedly on the boards. But try to put it different ways. This is to try to not be rehashing the same thing, but also so that posts discussing similar things stay on the front page since after a MAX of 2 days they dwindle and disappear.

I also hate the god damn mage posts and fuck ADC posts, but im not gonna hate the ones with correct thought-out points because its ANOTHER post. I hate the ones that have 0 effort "Fuck this" in them.

Velzard of Koz9 votes

Just to clarify:

TOP top 10: 5 AD Carries, 1 AD Tank, 1 AP Carry, 3 AP Tanks BOT top 10: 10 AD Carries, 0 AD Tanks, 0 AP Carries, 0 AP Tanks JUNG top 10: 4 AD Carries, 2 AD Tanks, 0 AP Carries, 4 AP Tanks MID top 10: 1 AD Carry, 0 AD Tanks, 9 AP Carries, 0 AP Tanks SUPP top 10: 5 AP Supports, 2 AP Carries, 3 Wardens

I used Plat+ data from Champion GG, marking as Tank whoever had more than half items tank and otherwise carry, taking in consideration most played champions and most popular builds.

Thefrostyviking3 votes

I looked at both OP.GG and league graphs and i can't find a single marksman in the toplane, neither winrate nor popularity.

Actually i didnt find a single one outside botlane except a single kindred in the jungle at the 9th spot.....that one was in diamond though, lower down and she drops a bit for each step.

Oh and if i don't misunderstand your comment it looks like you are claiming that we have AD carries in all the lanes except support and they are crowding out others from the top 10 in toplane and jungle.....something i can't find the slightest trace of.

Either i misunderstand your comment completely or it's highly inaccurate to the point of being complete nonsense.

Velzard of Koz2 votes

Marksmen aren't the only AD Carry role. The post I am responding to says AP and AD, not Marksman and the others.

Thefrostyviking3 votes

........................................................... Please use the nice names Riot created for the different subclasses since bunching them all up together in a fine mess is bound to lead to misunderstandings and incorrect statements.

Their diversity makes it nigh impossible to make a statement for the "AD carry" category as a whole.

Heck some of the marksmen are often different enough for it to be considered weird to name them in the same class.

I hardly seen any similarity between Ashe and MissFortune for one, except ranged auto attacks and AD damage.

Or Vayne and KogMaw despite both being hailed as lategame hypercarries.

Balancing classes as a whole is a terrible idea when the individuals that make up those classes are so different :(

DemoGuide8 votes

Best point in this thread is about more core rush items. I agree 100% on that. All that gametime shrinking by Rito caused a lot of trouble for mages, so such overloaded item like Morello is only way to be relevant at early stages.

The Yetii Rider8 votes

"Or sustained damage needs (basically AP Black Cleaver)"

Two things. Number 1 - the original item 3001 rework involved transforming it into basically an MR Sunfire Cape that reduced the MR of nearby targets with each burst, stacking a few times. So Riot has already tested a potential AP Black Cleaver and found issue with the idea.

Two - If sustained mages weren't already doing their jobs quite effectively, Riot would never have introduced item 3194 . Tanks have been complaining that MR is too burst-oriented and does not do enough to prevent sustained magic damage for 4 seasons now. Sustained damage mages have enough power in their kits, they don't need a special item.

"Tank-busting (% bonus pen)" - Tanks are intended to absorb burst. They are intended to basically swallow a mage's rotation and come out alive. The mage's job is not to kill tanks, it's to kill everyone the tank is body-blocking for. Juggernauts and divers will usually only have one MR item (item 3156 /item 3065 ) and assassins are supposed to kill mages if they manage to close the gap. The mage has to peel for themselves and soften the assassin up at range in order to kill them.

"More flat pen" - This would not affect mages nearly as much as it would affect AP assassins. Penetration over ability power favors champions with high base damage and low AP ratios, which are assassins. In particular, in a world where MR pen is powerful early and easy to stack, I foresee the return of assassin Elise. And we have a brand new Evelynn to contend with as well. AP assassins do need their own itemization update (not as much as divers) but let's not pretend that flat penetration is something that would be a 'mage' item. Flat penetration would give up AP. You'd see flat pen items that had 40 or 60 AP (like old Liandry's before Riot just decided to flat buff the item so someone would buy it) and other passives to make up for them, and no mage would touch them because they value their ratios too much.

High AP values should not be matched with CDR - They're not. And this is important. Battlemages currently have low AP high sustained damage CDR options in items like item 3100 anditem 3152 but they are choosing the higher AP options over those. That's not because the CDR options aren't good. They're amazing. Mages of all stripes just prefer raw damage output.

Shadow Hazard6 votes

Liandry's need's it's anti tank niche and it's burst pen niche separated into 2 unique items.

As has been said before morello's needs to not be so extremely stat/slot efficient for almost every AP champ (only ones who may think otherwise would be the mana-less ones).

AP assassin's need something that is unique to them that they can use best and that can't be shared with burst mages like annie for example.

hhaavviikk4 votes

but why not complain about mages? people complained about the already strong ADC's at the beginning of 2017 and it resulted in them getting buffs they didn't need so hey why not

Malicious Metal20 votes

Because devolving into whimpering, whining children shouldn't be the golden standard to get your voice heard.

Thefrostyviking3 votes

Let me guess, you are one of the happy people who think it's alright when a role with roughly 16 champions dedicated to going into a single lane (not counting vayne) only have 2 actually viable picks? Because that would explain why you feel that marksmen under the lethality meta didn't need help.

You probably also think that all tanks are weak and feeble, dying in less than 3 hits from the mighty favored children of Riot, the marksmen and that skirmishers like Fiora and Tryndamere need buffs to their damage.

Well heads up, there is a issue when a role dedicated to going into a single lane only have 2 viable picks among them.....which was caused by the fact that they weren't played like marksmen at all.

Go learn how to play some other champions beside supports which is the least mechanically intensive lane in the entire game and you might learn a thing or two about the actual state of the game ._.

Maining Janna and morgana indeed.

Maddened King 1 votes

[deleted]

DuskDaUmbreon1 votes

And that creates one super expensive, required item. 6050 gold, to be precise, if they're both just added together.

Nobody's going to even bother with that item anymore. Six thousand gold for a single item?

GrievousFetus6 votes

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