Stop the Vayne hate. She needs serious buffs.

chipndip1·Aug 17, 2016·3 votes·1,883 views

Like, she's popular enough to see some play even when she's useless, and I'm tired of auto-losing games because she's so garbage in comparison to other marksmen.

https://i.gyazo.com/40227dbc7682badbf498f3d55c537ed2.png

https://i.gyazo.com/c92d26306f68483bd19a801409728400.png

https://i.gyazo.com/efc712a323493ab96ea81bf5a969f397.png

General win rates are garbage. Experienced win rates are lousy. Vayne is an unrewarding champion that basically dooms your team to failure more than Lee Sin does. Stop the blind hate. Vayne NEEDS buffs.

Edit: Shit, I forgot I'm talking about Vayne. Wonder how many drive-by downvotes I get...

40 Comments

CrettAug 17, 20168 votes

No one wants Vayne to win. We all want to see her fail

HigeAug 17, 20167 votes

O.o didn't you just shut yourself down with your last image?

it only takes 10 games with Vayne for someone to go from 46% to +50% winrate.

Experienced players manage to reach 54% winrate which is quite high as well, buffing her would make these numbers rise way too much.

chipndip1Aug 17, 20166 votes

{quoted}

O.o didn't you just shut yourself down with your last image?

it only takes 10 games with Vayne for someone to go from 46% to +50% winrate.

Experienced players manage to reach 54% winrate which is quite high as well, buffing her would make these numbers rise way too much.

Most experienced win rates make it to about 57% or more. Vayne is actually severely under the average for experienced win rates.

However, you'd have to go to the site and look yourself. I'm not about to fill the page with a ton of graphs for a ton of champions.

HigeAug 17, 20162 votes

yes I did go to the page and you're right, I can't say that I agree with the data though since everytime I face a Vayne she does quite some damage upfront, like a rapid firecannon and a phantom dancer can chunk your health quite a lot with that new Q buff.

Of course my skill has nothing to do with how strong she is but I find it hard to believe that anyone thinks she's weak by any means.

chipndip1Aug 17, 20161 votes

{quoted}

yes I did go to the page and you're right, I can't say that I agree with the data though since everytime I face a Vayne she does quite some damage upfront, like a rapid firecannon and a phantom dancer can chunk your health quite a lot with that new Q buff.

Of course my skill has nothing to do with how strong she is but I find it hard to believe that anyone thinks she's weak by any means.

Yea, and it's like how I have trouble convincing people that Ashe is extremely strong. People have weird mentalities about adcs, where the ones that look flashy and dash around are 24/7 strong and the ones that sort of just shoot shit are nothing special. It actually bothers me sometimes.

ProfDrDeathAug 17, 20161 votes

For that build, Q buff does literally do about 20 extra damage.

HigeAug 17, 20161 votes

her Q is 50% dmg increase at lvl 5, if it crits that's 100% dmg increase, meaning that if her autoattack crits it's 200% + 100%... 20 dmg? really?

ProfDrDeathAug 17, 20161 votes

Buff is increasing that to 70%. Meaning, the difference if she has about 100 AD (from Doran's, runes and masteries) and the two Zeal upgrades is about 20 damage - or 40 damage on a crit, give you that.

HigeAug 17, 20161 votes

you are talking about the direct buff on her Q which yeah in comparison is 20, but that's barely a number alone that will increase when you stack everything else.

if you have 100 AD, 70% is 70 dmg, on a crit that becomes 140 dmg on top of the regular crit which would be 200, so you'd be dealing 340 damage from tumbling (and critting since it's rolled once for both now), that's a nice chunk of hp considering you can do it every 2 seconds at max level, consider also that even if you have only 100 AD, Final hour brings you up to 130 AD and dmg rolls increase again exponentially

Sightless66Aug 17, 20163 votes

That is below the average experience curve. Most champions earn a higher winrate than that after a similar number of games played.

It should also be noted that other websites like champion.gg say that Vayne never breaks a 50% winrate no matter how experienced her players are.

LordGeovanniAug 18, 20161 votes

if you pop everyone like a bubble but avoid towers like the plague you would most likely be under a 50% win rate too thats what adcs are atm and the people who play them especially NA server most of the server is like that they kill you and recall before takeing an objective

CalabokAug 17, 20166 votes

She is fine and needs nothing

JbelsAug 17, 20165 votes

Vayne isn't garbage, Gosu's fans are. She isn't in need of any buffs. Dedicated Vayne mains prove that every day

chipndip1Aug 17, 20162 votes

[{quoted}](name=NMF Jbels,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=jGMH7dep,comment-id=0003,timestamp=2016-08-17T17:07:09.588+0000)

Vayne isn't garbage, Gosu's fans are. She isn't in need of any buffs. Dedicated Vayne mains prove that every day

Then you try going against a real adc with a Vayne and see just how much she can do vs. them. Her 1v1 power is too low and she has nothing else to offer besides that while other adcs bring cc, aoes, range, or just are Draven so that damage is enough to ass-blast your mother into a dedicated masochistic lifestyle. You can get SO MUCH MORE from almost any other marksman in this game. Only worse marksmen are like...Kalista...maybe Urgot...

Let me specify though: I'm not saying Vayne's 1v1 power is low, period. I'm saying it's too low given she has nothing else to offer.

Sightless66Aug 17, 20161 votes

Only worse marksmen are like...Kalista...maybe Urgot...

And Corki. Don't forget how much Corki sucks.

But yeah, Vayne's pretty much the third worst ADC after Corki and Kalista.

JbelsAug 17, 20162 votes

{quoted}

Then you try going against a real adc with a Vayne and see just how much she can do vs. them. Her 1v1 power is too low and she has nothing else to offer besides that while other adcs bring cc, aoes, range, or just are Draven so that damage is enough to ass-blast your mother into a dedicated masochistic lifestyle. You can get SO MUCH MORE from almost any other marksman in this game. Only worse marksmen are like...Kalista...maybe Urgot...

Let me specify though: I'm not saying Vayne's 1v1 power is low, period. I'm saying it's too low given she has nothing else to offer.

You're acting like Vayne is supposed to be able to 1v1 ADCs in the early game. She's a hyper carry with a bad early game and an extremely strong late game. That's how she works

chipndip1Aug 17, 20162 votes

[{quoted}](name=NMF Jbels,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=jGMH7dep,comment-id=000300000001,timestamp=2016-08-17T17:35:38.893+0000)

You're acting like Vayne is supposed to be able to 1v1 ADCs in the early game. She's a hyper carry with a bad early game and an extremely strong late game. That's how she works

I'm acting like I don't want to have a 45% win rate champ on my team. Did I say "buff her early game"? I specifically said "buff Vayne". What that translates to can be nearly anything, but this champ is garbage enough right now.

If I want a hyper-carry, why not pick Jinx/Crit Jhin (not the pen build)/A fed Draven/Script'Maw?

AkeneroAug 17, 20162 votes

A large amount of vaynes play aggressive in laning phase from what I've seen, I prefer to be super passive myself, and actually have pretty good statistics with her, do I win all the time? Hell no. Do I win a respectable amount of the time? Yep. Vayne is good vs and with very specific comps, and has a very low amount of power due to her raw damage late-game, and with the rise of caitlyn and jihn who can just pop her instantly, she's in a bad spot. If we ever get into another tank or fighter meta, vayne will dominate.

chipndip1Aug 17, 20161 votes

{quoted}

A large amount of vaynes play aggressive in laning phase from what I've seen, I prefer to be super passive myself, and actually have pretty good statistics with her, do I win all the time? Hell no. Do I win a respectable amount of the time? Yep. Vayne is good vs and with very specific comps, and has a very low amount of power due to her raw damage late-game, and with the rise of caitlyn and jihn who can just pop her instantly, she's in a bad spot. If we ever get into another tank or fighter meta, vayne will dominate.

Cait isn't "on the rise". Cait has peaked ages ago (she's totally fine, but she isn't top tier). Ashe, Sivir, and Jhin are the strongest marksmen atm, and Jinx is the one "on the rise". Funny cause Jinx should be suffering from the same fate as Vayne being a hyper carry. Difference is that when Jinx rolls in, she stomps your shit in. Vayne sort of flops on her face and eats dirt.
I'm tired of people pulling the "They're just NICHE" card whenever a champ's bad. Sometimes a champ's just bad. This isn't DotA 2 where a champ being low win rate, but strong in specific match-ups and scenarios, is a thing we just sort of expect. LoL is a more generalized game than that. Even if tanks get stronger again, why would the current adcs fall off and let Vayne in? Pacing changes to the game have made it so your early game is just as important as your late game, and Vayne's late game isn't all that special while her early game is special for being horrible.
41% win rate in Silver V isn't doing well no matter what story you're spinning. Your Sona stats, 82%, make a better argument. 41%...not so much. Your account sort of proves my point.

LordGeovanniAug 17, 20161 votes

you arent meant to 1v1 yet thats exactly what most adcs do after lane phase and rip most everyone but the most fed assassins

Maximum MordeAug 17, 20163 votes

Nerf Vayne?

CalabokAug 17, 20163 votes

But she doesn't suck right now. You just want her OP again

chipndip1Aug 17, 20162 votes

{quoted}

But she doesn't suck right now. You just want her OP again

I want her to not doom me to failure no matter what I do. I'm a support main, so I support whatever adc I get. If I get Vayne, SOMEWHERE along the line that Vayne's gonna be useless. I don't want useless champs on my team.

RalanrAug 17, 20162 votes

Isn't she getting a buff?

Sightless66Aug 17, 20162 votes

Yes, and a certain segment of the boards has been absolutely livid about it. Some people can not stand the idea of Vayne not sucking again.

RalanrAug 17, 20162 votes

Well I'm certainly not one that would like to see her as near FOTM status again.

Sightless66Aug 17, 20162 votes

I don't think that's something we can avoid. Her playrate is already one of the highest in the game. It likely will be no matter what her actual winrate is, similar to how Ezreal has remained the most or second most played ADC in Korea no matter what his balance state is. That alone isn't a good justification for leaving her weak though, and she's pretty undoubtedly weak.

Riot has been slowly buffing her (so slowly in fact, that they accidentally nerfed her with the recent crit bugfix and dropped her winrate). I wouldn't worry about her becoming FOTM off of these kinds of changes.

warpenguin555Aug 17, 20162 votes

the only buff Vayne needs is a Caitlyn nerf

WeatheredAug 17, 20162 votes

Don't listen to the downvotes, you have the right facts and I understand where you are coming from. Sadly, because of popular opinion, most posts about buffing adc's will be downvoted, especially poor Kalista.

I play every role except adc fyi

redniwediSAug 17, 20162 votes

Vayne does not need buffs. Yes her win rate is a bit on the low side, but it's still reasonable. She's still in a range where a meta shift could bring her back into popularity, and that fact alone makes a buff dangerous. Riot doesn't revert buffs after all, and the resulting nerfs she would no doubt get could change her in a way you do not like. I say this as a Garen main who had to sit through the Juggernaut patch and the following nerfs.

Perhaps a quality of life change or two is in order, but not a straight up buff.

zlumpyAug 17, 20162 votes

Problem with buffing a champ who already destroys an entire champ class is you make that champ class do even worse. Vayne is supposed to be an duelist who excels against high HP low mobility champs. She is not supposed to do the same job other adcs do. Also using winrates in generall for a high skill cap champ is a bad idea. A 46% win rate means people try her out for the first time and fail bringing tue number down. If that winrate goes up it means she is TOO good and doesn't require as much skill to play in order to do well. As far as the 54% experienced winrate goes you won't find many supporters for your ideas at Riot. They want every champ to ideally be at 50% so to them thats a positive statistic.

Winrates mean different things on different champs. If a champ with a simple design does bad it means they are weak. If a complex champ with a higher skill cap has a lower winrate it means they are either too complex to be played or they just require more practice to master. Also isn't the experienced win rate still an average? Which means there are still gonna be Vayne mains out there with absurdly high win rates because they truely mastered the champ.

CalabokAug 17, 20162 votes

Ranked or not, Vanye is fine.

chipndip1Aug 17, 20161 votes

{quoted}

Ranked or not, Vanye is fine.

That's just blatantly untrue.

CalabokAug 17, 20161 votes

It's not all about you and your desire for to have your champ be buffed to OP status, it's about her overall balance for everyone

chipndip1Aug 17, 20161 votes

{quoted}

It's not all about you and your desire for to have your champ be buffed to OP status, it's about her overall balance for everyone

I don't even play adc in ranked...

LordGeovanniAug 18, 20161 votes

this past year vayne has been popular top jungle and adc and vayne has been a top laner as much as adc for a long time now only this season marksmen rework put vayne back into adc role

LordGeovanniAug 17, 20161 votes

45-50% win rate is the ideal place for a champion to be. riot is out of fuking control with these % hp damages you cant build against them because resistances get worse the more you build they are on so many champions and the same champions build raw damage. it wouldnt be a problem if those % damages didnt pass 10% but almost all do if not all or the ones that dont can be applied quickly

chipndip1Aug 17, 20161 votes

{quoted}

45-50% win rate is the ideal place for a champion to be. riot is out of fuking control with these % hp damages you cant build against them because resistances get worse the more you build they are on so many champions and the same champions build raw damage. it wouldnt be a problem if those % damages didnt pass 10% but almost all do if not all or the ones that dont can be applied quickly

I guarantee you that you don't know what you're talking about just from that first sentence alone.

LordGeovanniAug 18, 20161 votes

if this game was pve i would agree with you

Serpents EmbraceAug 18, 20161 votes

I don't think Vayne being "garbage" is why you're "auto-losing". :S Vayne isn't really underperforming, though. I wouldn't say she needs buffs, because that would imply the problem is with her. It isn't, it's with the environment she's being used in.

Jhin is currently over-performing the most, using an armor penetration centric build that allows him to do damage that mitigates almost, if not all, of squishy (priority) targets. Vayne relies on true damage, which while superior against high armor targets, is a set number and can't benefit from armor penetration. If the focus of Marksman meta changes from armor penetration to either AD or AS, she'll see a resurgence in popularity and win rate because she's a champion who utilizes those stats well.

Basically, Vayne feeling weak right now is just a byproduct of how Youmuu's and Duskblade are warping bot lane. They're more problematic than weaknesses in her kit, so fixing them is more important than buffing Vayne.