Veigar

Laraso·Sep 11, 2015·103 votes·5,601 views

So I've been saying for months that he's not garbage like everyone makes him out to be. I've been saying that he has weak laning but is extremely strong outside of laning. I've been saying that his E is actually really strong, that it's basically like an ultimate ability on an 8 second cooldown. But no, I'm just Bronze, I don't know anything, Veigar sucks, he's bottom-tier trash.

And then Scarra makes a video on Veigar saying everything I've been saying, almost word for word, and everyone takes him seriously. Keep it up guys.

131 Comments

MarthianSep 11, 201554 votes

Welcome to the forums. It's filled with assholes.

DezeMuffinsSep 11, 201546 votes

Welcome to the internet. It's filled with assholes.

lightdragoon88Sep 11, 201542 votes

Welcome to Life. It's filled with assholes.

DeusVultSep 11, 201524 votes

Welcome to the Bathroom. It's filled with assholes.

Crys3sSep 11, 201524 votes

Welcome to the Jungle. We got fun and games.

Photos of GhostsSep 12, 201512 votes

AND MY AXE Olaf oh w8 wrong trope

NarasimhaSep 12, 20152 votes

NO! THIS. IS. SPAAARTTTAAA! Pantheon

HighH1Sep 12, 201518 votes

No this is Patrick

Ace Access Sep 12, 20152 votes

No this is DEMACIAAAAAAAA!! Garen

Ace Access Sep 12, 20159 votes

Welcome to the internet. where men are men, women are also men and kids are secret NSA & FBI agents

HayRossSep 11, 201528 votes

Welcome to lol of legends, where you're wrong if you are low in ranked, even if what you is completely accurate

CrettSep 11, 201528 votes

it was never an issue of power level. he isnt fun to play because of how reliant he is on E, and the enemy ap ratio on R is an unnecessary mechanic that i think is holding him back a bit design wise

Veigar is strong, and he can be satisfying to play. other times he feels clunky and dysfunctional

Stevev45Sep 11, 20154 votes

I think this is the real issue as well.

RrettSep 12, 20152 votes

Brother, You are too correct!

lB2kGRlc8ySep 13, 20154 votes

He's reliant on enemy mistakes in general. I don't often find him satisfying to play anymore because of how polarized his games are now. You're either against morons who mistake you for a caster minion and don't dodge any of your highly telegraphed moves, or the enemy has a brain and renders you useless by avoiding all of your abilities and feeding off of you (or pushing you so far out of lane you can't get exp or ap).

SaiannaSep 11, 201524 votes

Some of us are still kind of sad/annoyed that Veigar power comes mostly from sloopiness of enemy instead of veigar-player skill..

He can do his stuff, OK. But it doesn't feels cool/good as it (kinda) used to.

For CarthageSep 12, 20151 votes

So you're saying predicting where the enemy is about to go with your E and then trapping them in a stun with a delay doesn't feel ten times better than just insta-clipping them for a 2.5 second stun?

SasogwaSep 12, 20159 votes

It's not predicting if he can correct his trajectory and not walk into the stun. There are fucking colored warnings. If he can't change his trajectory during the time he sees the warning, he's either completely retarded, has 500+ ping or is already hardCC'ed by the rest of your team. There is no prediction. Holy shit, how hard is that to understand. If ahri's Q had 500 projectile speed instead of 1690 (if my sources are correct), everyone would dodge it. BECAUSE THEY HAVE THE TIME TO DO SO BECAUSE IT IS SLOW. If Veigar's E had the same delay but no warnings whatsoever, there would be actually skill about prediction. Now it's not, because you see the motherfucking warnings. How many thousands of times do we have to explain that? As Veigar, you can NOT land your E only if you are skilled, it requires a mistake from the enemy team or help (on the form of CC or zoning in general) from your team. I would even say that even by zoning them with your W and Q, he will still not get stunned if he's good, and not get hit by W (and in the best case he only takes damage from Q)

Anyway, you're saying killing an enemy that did a shitty mistake, or that got caught by your team and you did nothing else than chain on what they did feels good? Even though you had strictly 0 play influence on the game and instead simply provided damage and stunning? It feels like playing a bot when you are Veigar. You do not make plays, you provide things for your team. Some CC landed by your teammates? Veigar provides X amount of damage and can stun them for a longer duration.

I can assure you, in high elo, if nobody does stupid mistakes, it feels extremely bad to play Veigar, the low mobility low play potential mage.

Does that mean he's bad? Hell no. When he chains on people etc. and peels for his team with his E, manages to land W, he can do a lot of damage. What do you think Veigar players complain about? Laning phase? NO. Manacosts? NO. Damage? NO. Cooldowns? NO. Quality of life? YES.

I actually don't give a fuck if they increase his manacosts, his cooldowns, nerf his scalings, give him a shitty laning phase. I just want a reactive, rewarding burst mage with play potential. I was perfectly fine when Veigar had 45% winrate back then and pretty much everyone considered him trash. He was very enjoyable.

And about toxicity, if it ever comes to that, I find an insta stunburster 10 billions times healthier to play against than some kiting bitch like Kalista or Vayne.

AnidanSep 12, 20151 votes

A reactive burst mage with play potential, paired with his stun... I really, really hate to side with Riot on this one, but: No. Say what you will about Kalista and Vayne, but while their main strength is prolonged combat Veigar seeks to end it instantly. When his stun is strong he may be fun to play as, but he's not fun to play against.

Say what you will about mind-games or whatever regarding his stun, but this isn't Shaco where you won't necessarily die the instant you screw up. Upon an error, Veigar will delete all evidence of your existence from the map. Similarly to when Fiddles had his stupid 3 second fear, it's just plain not fun to go against it, especially if he gets ahead. When I lost a trade to Veigar before, I didn't think, 'well shit, i got out-played' I thought 'well shit, he landed his stun with about 1000 effective range on me.' You know... like Annie, except every 14-20 seconds instead of 80-120.

And if it comes down to a conversation about toxicity, then one thing being less toxic than another doesn't mean it isn't still toxic. The lesser of two evils is still evil.

ReazaleSep 12, 20154 votes

Mobility is toxic and has no counterplay, maybe we should go adding some .5 delays to every mobility skill in game cos its unfun to play against, and most adc be late game will take about the same time killing a squishy in the time it takes 1 of veigars W to land while alse beign able to kill tanks...

AnidanSep 13, 20151 votes

The counterplay to mobility shouldn't be delays, nor should a person have to revolve around landing a CC that means the opponent can no longer react to the rest of your combo. In League, that is not a very good design because it's no longer built around that. DotA can do it, League cannot.

Was Veigar healthy before this change? No. Is he healthy now? No. Is he healthier now than before? Only technically, but overall, no. We all know that giving him a telegraphed delay on his stun was a terrible idea, but we all also know that being on the receiving end of an un-telegraphed Veigar stun was also not fun (let's be real here for a second: that stun was not hard to land, at all).

He was being used a counter to mobility, and that's fair because mobility should have counterplay of some sort, but this is the wrong way to go about it. If you want to counter mobility, you need to affect the mobile in a way that doesn't harm the immobile even more, which Veigar's stun did. Roots, or a special CC designed to prevent only spells of controlled mobility (dashes, blinks, teleports), or other things can be used, but Veigar's stun shouldn't have to be one of them.

Veigar was not, nor is he now, healthy. As long as his stun retains the potential power that it does, he probably never will be. You could even justify the same for Annie - it doesn't matter at this point.

Loken StoneheartSep 13, 20153 votes

{quoted}

The counterplay to mobility shouldn't be delays, nor should a person have to revolve around landing a CC that means the opponent can no longer react to the rest of your combo. In League, that is not a very good design because it's no longer built around that. DotA can do it, League cannot.

Was Veigar healthy before this change? No. Is he healthy now? No. Is he healthier now than before? Only technically, but overall, no. We all know that giving him a telegraphed delay on his stun was a terrible idea, but we all also know that being on the receiving end of an un-telegraphed Veigar stun was also not fun (let's be real here for a second: that stun was not hard to land, at all).

He was being used a counter to mobility, and that's fair because mobility should have counterplay of some sort, but this is the wrong way to go about it. If you want to counter mobility, you need to affect the mobile in a way that doesn't harm the immobile even more, which Veigar's stun did. Roots, or a special CC designed to prevent only spells of controlled mobility (dashes, blinks, teleports), or other things can be used, but Veigar's stun shouldn't have to be one of them.

Veigar was not, nor is he now, healthy. As long as his stun retains the potential power that it does, he probably never will be. You could even justify the same for Annie - it doesn't matter at this point.

Thing is, when you put delays on things, it screws things up. See, now Veigar's E doesn't affect mobile champions period, but can still trap immobile champions-- it made the problem you're describing actually just straight up worse.

Before, his E didn't discriminate, it just kinda caught everyone. Now, it further empowers mobility creep because it can be dodged with ease if you're playing a mobile champion.

Same with all of these delay abilities. All they do is further mobility creep. They're removing ways to deal with mobile champions, but still leaving the immobile with little to no hope of escaping due to their only form of escape being walking away.

CastaneanSep 11, 201512 votes

Surprise; Many people think rank automatically equals an EXACT measurement of skill.

Newsflash; Not everyone plays ranked religiously. Someone being bronze or silver does not automatically make them terrible at the game. Not to mention, you don't actually need to be good at the game to be able to tell what champs are strong or weak.

Photos of GhostsSep 12, 20154 votes

Revelation: skill and common sense are rarely related, since skill is an instinct and common sense is active reasoning.

RrettSep 12, 20152 votes

Someone being bronze or silver does not automatically make them terrible at the game

Yes it does

CastaneanSep 12, 20153 votes

No. No it doesn't. Being Silver or Bronze means this specific person is either bad at the game... Or that they simply don't play a lot of ranked. You can get good at the game in normals too, and not everyone likes playing ranked. Which, really, is completely and totally understandable.

RrettSep 13, 20151 votes

No, if you're silver/bronze you're terrible. There isn't much excuse for it.

Normals? Those are such a far cry from ranked. To even compare the 2 shows you have no fucking idea what you're talking about.

CastaneanSep 13, 20152 votes

To even compare the 2 shows you have no fucking idea what you're talking about.

I would beg to differ. I know very well what I'm talking about, and I will stand by it. You don't NEED to play ranked to get good at the game, you need to research and practise. Even if normal games are a bit more "Casual" than ranked, there is no rule that says "If it's not ranked you cannot improve."

Just, think for a second. How bloody terrible would most people be once they started playing ranked... If they learnt NOTHING from levels 1 to 30? They'd be playing Lux ADC and shit like that, then wonder why Final Spark does no damage. And do they? No. Most people don't. So there! Proof that people DON'T NEED RANKED TO GET BETTER AT THE GAME.

In fact; I've got more arguements for why a Bronze or Silver can be good. Observe:

Someone plays ranked. They get themselves placed. They end up in silver by the time they get sick of the atmosphere in ranked. Now they stop playing ranked and play normals exclusively. Cue a couple years of this and they'll most likely be pretty damn good by silver standards. By your logic, even after this amount of time, they haven't gotten any better at all and will still be as terrible as they were when they ended up in silver, despite having played the game for years. They haven't improved with their favourite champion at all and don't know anything new about playing against that champion's counters either. They haven't learnt better builds or good counterbuilds against new champs or with new items.

Which situation is more logical? Them improving while playing the game, or not improving at all just because they're not playing ranked?

And for a last point; If you're thinking about a "Lack of equally good or better opponents," there's always Customs to solve that. Y'know, practising with your gold/plat/diamond buddy? How will that not make them improve? How are you going to argue they CAN'T BE GOOD and be Bronze or Silver at the same time? Seriously. Try to counter my points. Argue as hard as you want; My arguement will stay completely solid.

RrettSep 13, 20151 votes

pretty damn good by silver standards.

Still silver... The ranking system is phenomenally accurate. I've smurfed a fuck ton before, and the ranking system is really good at what it does.

despite having played the game for years. They haven't improved with their favourite champion at all

I have 4000+ hours on the game, and the amount of time it actually took me to get better at the game can be consolidated into 200 hours. Unless you're trying in a ranked environment to get better, you will not likely see any or much improvement. And I'm not the only one.

You seem to suggest you can get better at normals. Well, you can't. The 'situation' just isn't there to get better, you can't practice anything.

Maybe you don't see it because you're terribad, but once you play enough ranked normals are a joke. I haven't met another diamond who considered even coming close to practicing in normals for anything other than learning a champion. Why? Because normals are a joke.

Btw, High elo normals are about the funnest games you can play. No one cares and it usually ends up in one throwing cluster fuck, it's great. I highly recommend getting diamond and trying it out, you'll have a lot of fun!

CastaneanSep 13, 20152 votes

Normals are indeed supposed to be the "Casual fun time" mode, and people aren't usually trying as hard in normals as in ranked, but that is, again, no reason you can't get better at the game. You can still learn. There are still going to be normal games where you lose, and those are the games you can learn from. In any situation where someone beats you, you have a situation where you can learn. The difficult part is taking the opportunity and finding the lesson to be learned, then applying it to future games.

Also; I never said a bronze/silver player will secretly be diamond just because they haven't played ranked. Playing ranked is, as you say, possibly the best way to get better, but it isn't the only way. Also, I'm going to take your other reply and respond here to keep the arguement clean and collected;

You say that people at silver and bronze aren't bad because they're silver or bronze. But I have yet to see someone get diamond from Silver/bronze in 150-100 games.

This is a given. Climbing isn't easy, and I've never implied it is. In fact; It really SHOULDN'T be. Here's the thing though; The question isn't wether a Bronze/Silver can be diamond level, the question is wether or not a Bronze/Silver can be good at the game, and that's a whole other thing.

And actually; This arguement works in MY favour, not yours. Since climbing is a slow, difficult process, just like this arguement suggests, that means that a Silver player whom is trying to climb can still be good at the game, just not high rank yet.

So Castanean, I can only assume you mean you yourself aren't bad because you are(were) silver, so I challenge you to get diamond in 100 games.

Believe it or not; I'm NOT talking about myself. I still have a lot to get better at. Besides, if I were narcissistic enough to actually BE talking about myself, I would probably make that pretty clear. I wont call myself "Good" at the game, but I wont say "Bad" either. Just... "Decent". I can say one thing though! I have never been bronze. Something I am fairly proud about. Go ahead, look it up. I really haven't.

Oh, also, a quick note on something that could be misunderstood;

Well, he's gotta learn at some point.

Just to make it clear; This was not meant as a direct insult or anything like that. It was meant more as an "If he doesn't know how to argue" Which you've clearly proven you DO know how to do.

SirPacifistaSep 14, 20151 votes

Soo... you played ranked the last and this season, lost in ranked solo badly... and now oyu want to tell us that skill has nothing to do with elo?

You play(ed) ranked to get RANKED, to see how you are playing compared to other people, so yes, it does reflect on the persons skill. It may be that there are exception, if you only played like 10 ranked games, and then quited, but not if you did more games. You for example did quit ranked games because you were RANKED so lowly.

Not to mention, you don't actually need to be good at the game to be able to tell what champs are strong or weak.

Jeah of course, but why is nearly everyone under plat saying that Veigars E is reliable and that you can still stun anbody, that you just need more skill for that?

Because these people are retarded. just look at the Veigar forums and look these people up. They arend Plat or diamond, they are silver, bronze and a few golds. That are these people who think that Nasus is unfair, because they dont know what to do against certain champs. So yes, they need to be good at the game to know whos strong and whos weak.

CastaneanSep 15, 20151 votes

Don't put words in my mouth, please. Also, why are you so aggressive? You don't need to (attempt to) personally attack people to argue. In fact; It makes you look bad. I'm also perfectly fine being Silver too, I ain't complaining about it.

Now; Let me clarify things for you; I have never said getting placed in higher ELO doesn't require skill. What I HAVE said though is that a person's rank isn't always 100% accurate to their skill. A Bronze or Silver player CAN actually be good at the game. Being Bronze/Silver either means that you're in the lower skill-levels of players, or that you just don't play a lot of ranked. Placing upwards in the ladder takes time and lots of effort, and not everyone wants to go through it. And another thing; I didn't quit playing ranked because I was placed in Silver. I don't play a lot of ranked because I usually play with 3 or 4 friends, as I enjoy that more than playing solo. I'm perfectly fine being Silver, and when I first got placed in season 4 I did NOT expect to be placed in Silver 2. It turned out that way, and I was actually really happy about it, so don't assume you know how I think and who I am. I am Silver, and, as I said earlier, I'm just fine being silver.

When it comes to figuring out who is strong and who is weak at the moment, you need an understanding of the game, not the mechanical skill to be Diamond/Master/Challenjour. So, no, you don't need to be good at the game to figure out who is strong, you need to UNDERSTAND the game, and that's something completely different. (Though being good at the game can let you figure out who is strong through trial and error.)

As for Veigar; I've never said Veigar's stun was reliable either, because the plain simple truth is that is ISN'T. Not as a stun anyway. It's still one of the best ways to force a flash in the game though, and it's still really powerful in teamfights. Besides; Most people here (in my experience at least) are saying that Veigar isn't bad, not that his stun is reliable. And to be fair, his stun did need that counterplay. Only thing is, Riot should probably have changed Dark Matter too, since it was balanced around the stun and has literally no chance of hitting without CC.

Curling VeigarSep 11, 20159 votes

I said this too months ago. I'm diamond AND a Veigar main but people still disagreed with me :U

ConturbatioSep 11, 20152 votes

He's in a "nice" spot right now, but he still needs his self-peel back, at least the nearest E wall to Veigar should spawn instantly so that he could defend himself from assassins.

WhiskerWowSep 11, 20159 votes

So far from what I've seen, everyone says that Veigar is balanced, but not really that fun anymore. His only joy is to one-shot the enemy APC in a long-game.

EddiotSep 12, 20151 votes

I enjoy 1 shotting three members of their at once though!

WhiskerWowSep 12, 20152 votes

Either they're bad and they deserved to be one shotted, or you got help from your team.

Which is why people don't play Veigar anymore, because one of the two usually happen when you get a kill.

lB2kGRlc8ySep 12, 20158 votes

Veigar is absolutely reliant on enemy fuck ups, that's an irrefutable fact. Veigar can't survive solo encounters with anyone with a working brain, as 30% of his damage is a 1.2 second delayed meteor, and the stun he uses to self peel and land the aforementioned meteor's delay combined with its incredibly small sliver of effective area can be sidestepped in a fraction of the time it takes to appear. Due to those massive flaws, he can't make plays, he's instead utterly reliant on his team to do it for him, or the enemy to forget that he's not a caster minion in order to perform.

In summary, he isn't bad at low levels of play, but many of the old Veigar mains liked having him viable in higher levels as well, which just isn't at all true. I don't know what was so oppressive about his kill or be killed play style before his gutting, the overwhelming amount of mobility whores made him a very rare pick whose only advantage was that people had never seen him before and didn't know how to react.

Voluug13Sep 12, 20155 votes

Only AP assassins ever complained. But Riot here nerfworked him because of Support Korean Veigar stoping mobility play$.

lB2kGRlc8ySep 12, 20152 votes

Man people be hatin on you friend, dem nid/ahri mains lol.

YormaughmSep 11, 20157 votes

I know.

I started playing support Veigar in season 3. Built mobility boots (back when you'd get laughed at/scolded for doing so) had nothing but movespeed and CDR on my rune page, rushed Shurelia's/Talisman of Ascension and roamed around the map (once again, not a thing back then) and got assists everywhere. Yet when Team Builder came out people would kick me off the team for trying to play Veigar as a support because "Veigar needs stacks, and we can't have you taking the ADC's CS." Or just because "Veigar isn't a support." Know how many times I took CS? Zero. Veigar doesn't need stacks when he has a 2.5 second instant AOE stun that with max CDR is up every 8 seconds. Oh and because of his ult, he can still kill people. I probably averaged 5 to 7 kills per game as the support back in those days.

But no, support Veigar is trash.

Until pro-Korean players started doing it and then Riot deleted him.

There was nothing wrong with old Veigar really, it was just a "who gets caught first" scenario. If Veigar caught you, he 100-0'd you, if you caught him, he got 0-100'd. Some people say that's an unfair game mechanic with "no counterplay" which I'd agree with if there weren't still like 40 champions who work exactly this way, but I digress. That's how it worked, and it was fine because the thing that gated Veigar was his lack of mobility.

Old mid-Veigar played safe, snowballed and nuked people late game, but he was kinda useless until then. That was his playstyle and he can still do that, but with a bit more difficulty and the difference is now this is his only option of playstyle. I always felt he was more fun and more impactful as a roaming support who dropped AOE stuns on people from the shadows. He can still do this too, but not nearly as effectively as "traditional" supports, once "roaming support" became a thing.

I don't play Veigar anymore, sometimes I try to, but it just doesn't work. IMO it's not because he isn't still good, it's because League of Mobility is much much more of a thing now than it was. Now every support builds mobility boots and half the junglers do too. There's tons more items in the game that give movespeed boosts like Luden's, Righteous Glory, Ardent Censer and now Dead Man's Plate. Back in the day you were sort of "punished" for building the very few items that gave movespeed because you sacrificed other stats you probably needed to get those items. Nowadays the items you're going to buy anyway just have movespeed on them too cause why the hell not? Veigar always had way less mobility than everyone else, sometimes it even forced him to use his E defensively to run away, now his E only works on people who are braindead or in the chaos of a teamfight. Now Veigar is forced to build items like Luden's to stay competitive, except that item is so good that his already more mobile lane opponent is going to build it too, so we're right back at square one.

Big LincolnSep 11, 20156 votes

i don't think he's bad

i just think he's hard to enjoy until i'm 5/0

A Miss FortuneSep 12, 20151 votes

You don't have to be 5-0 to one shot any AP Carry.

Big LincolnSep 12, 20155 votes

but you can't really get over how clunky and awkward his E/W feels until you're so fed that you only need QR to kill priority targets and the rest is just overkill

lB2kGRlc8ySep 12, 20153 votes

Yea, you just need the enemy APC to build glass cannon like a retard.

A Miss FortuneSep 12, 20154 votes

Or build any standard AP items? Either they go tank or they get one shot. It's unfair and stupid but It's one of Veigar's only way to actually kill people.

Voluug13Sep 12, 20154 votes

item 3157 -> Standard AP item that nullifies Veigar's burst.

NineTailedMysticSep 12, 20154 votes

Can't Zhonyas when you're stunned.

lB2kGRlc8ySep 12, 20155 votes

how the fuck did you get stunned!?

Doctor DymentSep 12, 20151 votes

Ya see, the biggest people have with Veigar now, is that you have to THINK about what you want to do. Not just mindlessly do it. TOO FUCKIN' HARD AMIRITE BETTER CALL HIM TRASH RIGHT? EHEHEHEHEHEHEHEHE