New Kog is a weaker hypercarry than old Kog.

BluePolarizer·Dec 9, 2015·16 votes·1,348 views

New Kog's W: doubles attack speed, 2% max HP damage per hit. Old Kog's W: 6% max HP damage per hit.

That's 3x more damage per hit and the penalty is merely lower attack speed which didn't matter since no real Kog build can actually get 2.5 attack speed.

But wait there's more! Since old Kog's W doesn't half his autoattack damage, he wasn't pigeonholed into a single on-hit build. Instead he could opt for a build for maximum attack speed and mid-game power, or go for a crit build. Now there is no choice.

31 Comments

Sire HippingtonDec 9, 20153 votes

Someone didn't get Kogs W it seems. double TOTAL-AS and AS-cap, with 55% aa damage but full onhit. You can also read it as '10% more damage and applys on-hit twice' as that's effectivly what it does.

So actually, he does have 4% rather than 2% on W due double AS, and he scales better with items than befor, as he effectivly has 10% more AA dps and profits twice as much from every on-hit item, which offsets the missing 2% onhit compared to befor by far.

BluePolarizerDec 9, 20151 votes

Simple elementary school math on W on-hit only:

He gets 2% damage now for 2x the attack speed. Let's make this simple: he has 2.0 regular attack speed, 4.0 with W active, he outputs 4x2% max HP damage per second.

Old kog: 6% damage at 2.0 attack speed with W active. He outputs 2x6% max HP damage per second.

I don't get why this is so complicated. No matter how you spin it he lost 25% of his damage from W active alone.

Losing 45% autoattack is also bad because you are not stationary in fights. It is only true in a stand up and autoattack type of situation which doesn't happen often.

RebonackDec 9, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Simple elementary school math on W on-hit only:

He gets 2% damage now for 2x the attack speed. Let's make this simple: he has 2.0 regular attack speed, 4.0 with W active, he outputs 4x2% max HP damage per second.

Old kog: 6% damage at 2.0 attack speed with W active. He outputs 2x6% max HP damage per second.

I don't get why this is so complicated. No matter how you spin it he lost 25% of his damage from W active alone.

Losing 45% autoattack is also bad because you are not stationary in fights. It is only true in a stand up and autoattack type of situation which doesn't happen often.

It should also be kept in mind that Koggy's old W had an 8 second duration to the new W's 6.

So in this scenario, assuming you get to stand around and pewpew something for the whole duration, old Kog would deal 96% of the target's max HP in magic damage while new Kog would deal 48%. Just a little over half the damage over its duration.

Sire HippingtonDec 9, 20152 votes

You could use some refreshing of your math, 4x2 = 8. 2x6 =12, so he lost 4%, wich is33% of his W damage, not 25%

And the simple thing you refuse to understand: He scales better with Items now! A hypercarry is defined by his scaleing with items rather than base values, and he gains 10% more out of every ad, as or crit item he gets, and 100% more out of every on-hit from items than befor.

That means that with just BotrK, he already bypasses old kogs dps duering W, as the 6% current health can bes seen as 3% maxhealth in average, so adding that to your math, new kog deals (2%+3%)x4 vs (6%+3%)x2, which means 10% vs 9%. For every further item he gets, his damage growes more than that of old kog. so as soon as your first item is finished, and pre lvl 7, new W gives more dps than the old one.

BluePolarizerDec 9, 20151 votes

I think another player has already answered that question:

"It should also be kept in mind that Koggy's old W had an 8 second duration to the new W's 6.

Sire HippingtonDec 10, 20151 votes

if you are alowed to free fire for 6 sec as kog, the fight is prettymuch won anyway...

the duration is a certainly a nerf, but for the time it's up, he simply has more dps than befor, no matter what he builts, and in most situations, 6sec is enough.

Limbo PeteDec 9, 20152 votes

Meanwhile, Vayne.....

KONO RUBICK DADec 9, 20152 votes

best part is that he no longer does physical damage i can't stop laughing at this.

make his W physical damage

RebonackDec 9, 20153 votes

{quoted}

best part is that he no longer does physical damage i can't stop laughing at this.

make his W physical damage

If Koggy's W did physical damage I would be sad =<

Given the choice, I would prefer Koggy doing pure magic damage. Riot could roll that into his Innate in addition to the whole exploding thing.

Kog'Maw converts all Physical Damage he deals (including OnHit effects) into Magic Damage.

KONO RUBICK DADec 9, 20151 votes

{quoted}

If Koggy's W did physical damage I would be sad =<

Given the choice, I would prefer Koggy doing pure magic damage. Riot could roll that into his Innate in addition to the whole exploding thing.

Kog'Maw converts all Physical Damage he deals (including OnHit effects) into Magic Damage.

you prefer building void staff or giant's slayer?

RebonackDec 9, 20152 votes

{quoted}

you prefer building void staff or giant's slayer?

Voidstaff and Wit's, no questions asked.

I want my super long range execute to kill people in one hit instead of two.

Sire HippingtonDec 9, 20152 votes

he always did ~50% magical damage, shifting some more in that direction is not a problem at all. I always pefered ap-as kog over ad anyway.

KONO RUBICK DADec 9, 20152 votes

[{quoted}](name=Don Pavoni,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=jFHKKTO2,comment-id=00040001,timestamp=2015-12-09T19:08:00.683+0000)

he always did ~50% magical damage, shifting some more in that direction is not a problem at all. I always pefered ap-as kog over ad anyway.

he always did 100% of his AA damage as physical damage which was a reason for kog players to buy last whisper

Sire HippingtonDec 9, 20152 votes

his W was always magical, as all other skills he has. His normal AA damage is still physical, and it actually is higher than ever befor as he gets more as from Q and his W effectivly increases his physical damage by 10%, and BotrK still is physical... If you want to focus on physical damage, you can still do so

D357R0Y3RDec 10, 20151 votes

[{quoted}](name=Don Pavoni,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=jFHKKTO2,comment-id=0004000100000000,timestamp=2015-12-09T23:15:35.361+0000)

his W was always magical, as all other skills he has. His normal AA damage is still physical, and it actually is higher than ever befor as he gets more as from Q and his W effectivly increases his physical damage by 10%, and BotrK still is physical... If you want to focus on physical damage, you can still do so

his W was always magical, but kog was still a physical damage threat carry because his AA dealt 400 damage with brk, and his W 150 damage, that's why kog players were building last whisper.

Sire HippingtonDec 10, 20151 votes

just that his AAs now deal more rather than less damage, and BotrK still exists, working better than ever on him. If you want to go for an physical damage built, just do it. The only thing he kinda 'lost' is trinity, as the aditional 10%crit are worse than 15% as and 30ap that it lost for kog, but it probably still works as he can still frequently proc it.

Lost RDec 9, 20152 votes

Kog'Maw's new strength isn't the ability to do raw damage like a normal hypercarry. His strength is stacking the on-hit effects like nobody's business.

Nashor's Tooth, Wit's End, BORK, Rageblade, Hurricane. Hell, you could even do a Frozen Mallet or Manamune if you're feeling that sadistic. I think his W might also proc Liandri's Torment.

Kog'Maw has tremendous strength, but you won't find it trying to build the same things on him as you would Graves, Jinx or Cait.

BluePolarizerDec 9, 20151 votes

Almost all hypercarries do insane damage. They do it in different ways.

Jinx : AOE crits as pure physical damage. This makes her best against squishy teams since 1 crit can shred their whole team but she is weak against tanky teams because her single target damage at range is low and her short range single target damage is hard to use in teamfights (because if someone successfully dives you, you're already dead.

Vayne : True damage from Silver Bolts and autoattack resets from Tumble and 2x free BF swords from her ult. Her AOE damage is nonexistent but she shreds tanks and squishies alike at short range, and it's super hard to dive her due to her mobility.

KogMaw : Currently his only way to hypercarry is magic damage %HP damage from Bioarcane Artillery and its synergy with on-hit effects. If he wasn't able to output this damage, he'd be useless since he doesn't do the job of a carry which is to output damage. This was also old Kog's role.

However, old Kog also had the secondary DPS option of spellblade weaving with ult/Triforce which was actually the better way of playing him (playing him like Corki with bad mobility but strong late game) since players realized that Kog, as an immobile squishy, needs to make every hit count rather than hope the enemy team will allow him to sit there and autoattack.

MLDzXnRRRDec 10, 20152 votes

Old Kog was stronger. I don't see why would anyone pick him over Jinx now.

RebonackDec 9, 20151 votes

I liked that the AD ratio on Koggy's W gave him the very real choice of going AD heavy to focus on his Ult and singular powerful attacks instead of a lot more weak ones.

Now the only optimal options are AP Marksmen Kog or TanKoggy.

EshielDec 9, 20151 votes

JUGGERMAW

MunchCrunchLunchDec 9, 20151 votes

bork is nerfed. no reason to buy bork anymore. at all. it got nerfed HARD. and it costs more.

EcchiOtakuTMDec 9, 20151 votes

except Botrk does 24%-30%(give or take) current HP damage every second esp if kog gets to hurricane point.

botrk is core on kog just as rageblade/hurricane

Packun FlowerDec 9, 20151 votes

Posted this already but i'll post it again in this thread.

These nerfs will push Kog'Maw out of bot lane and into mid lane as an AP attack speed champ. He'll get more out of building AP then he does AD now.

The only problem is he's really susceptible to assassins and they tend to swarm mid lane and top lane might be an option for him as wel. But now that they removed the AD scaling on W you really have no reason to build AD on him.

Bork might still be good on him, but you can't call yourself an ADC with one damage item.

Frankly I think AP attack speed could work, i plan to try this build next patch.

item 3115 item 3006 item 3153 item 3124 item 3089 item 3135

i might try subbing item 3135 for item 3091

Attack speed/AP rune page

and i'll probably trade in the AD keystone for an AP one.

it's really sad to see the death of AD Kog'Maw but this is what they want to do with him so be it.

EcchiOtakuTMDec 9, 20151 votes

What in god's name is there not a hurricane in there somewhere D:

Botrk, Rageblade,Hurricane core on either ap/ad

BluePolarizerDec 9, 20151 votes

He should still go bot since he's still an autoattack marksman that would get rekt in other lanes. You just realize that he has sustained magic damage output so you put your physical output elsewhere (mid Zed or Talon for instance).

I'd also 100% go item 3157 over Dcap.

idontplaythemetaDec 9, 20151 votes

Can I add since his w does half damage yeah he gets double attack speed buuuut. Your lose sing about 3-4 attacks every time you try to move. So they can just move outta range and start kiting with abilities so that every time he clicks he misses out on 3-4 attacks... Guess what, the old one only needs about 3 attacks. Standing still. Easy to move in range shoot move in range shoot and then do it again. Now? You gotta pray they stay in range cause if you got say 4 attacks per second. At 55% damage. And they move outta range so you gotta move too you miss sooooooo much damage. Buff that dang reduced damage he does. Think of it this way. 2.5 attacks on a 150 damage adc is nice but every time you move you miss a bunch. And your 375 dps drops to 150 dps. So when they updated Kong they forced that dps drop by forcing him to stand still in order to get that 5% damage buff. Even though your missing out on way more if they take a single step outside. Now if i wanna play koggers I max e first for a crummy slow. Cause i end up losing damage if I press w.

BisaknospDec 9, 20151 votes

i miss the old kog so much .. his early wasnt as garbage as now, his midgame was decent and his late was strong now ? shit in all points of the game he shouldnt move they said counterplay they said yeah with all that mobility creep theres actually too much counterplay to stand still and autoattack also they made it so that there is like 1 good build path for him wow much diversity

KoechopheDec 9, 20151 votes

They transitioned him towards on hit items, then gutted on-hit itemization by massively reducing the attack speed and base damage of Runaans and increasing the cost and decreasing the damage of BoTRK. It makes 0 sense.

RebonackDec 9, 20152 votes

{quoted}

They transitioned him towards on hit items, then gutted on-hit itemization by massively reducing the attack speed and base damage of Runaans and increasing the cost and decreasing the damage of BoTRK. It makes 0 sense.

I liked the part where they decided not to have Trinity build out of Recurve because 'champions who built it don't like auto-attacking that much'.

When, y'know, Kog has always been one of the poster-child Trinity builders.

Sire HippingtonDec 10, 20152 votes

or irelia, or jax... The least AA afine user of it probably was EZ, and even he has up to 90%as-steroid from his kit and should use AAs alot... And uping crit, a purely AA empowering stat that is very unreliable unless you AA a lot, reasoning it with 'champions who built it don't like auto-attacking that much' is just...i can't find the right words for that [zombie-brand-facepalm] the trinity rework did just nothing good at all and came for no reason at all....