counterplay isn't just dodge the skillshot. positioning, strategy and timing are also counterplays.

BluePolarizer·Apr 10, 2015·143 votes·7,119 views

Not all counterplay is mechanical. For example you don't counterplay a late game Vayne by trying to duel her late game. There is almost zero counterplay in a 1v1 late game duel between 6 slotted Vayne and 6 slotted anyone else except maybe Master Yi with a specialized build.

You counterplay Vayne by not letting her get to late game through ganks or fast pushing, by outrotating, by positioning with a higher range ADC to hit her while she can't hit you, by setting up teamfights to use AOE ADCs to melt the rest of her team (like setting up narrow jungle fights with Twitch, Jinx or Kalista), etc.

There is alot of counterplay which involves not letting the enemy champs get into a situation where they are good and where they can use their strengths. Udyr is a splitpush monster - but he can't teamfight very well. Push other lanes out then force a fight, Udyr can't do much. Don't just dance around mid or baron (like I see in so many games). Amumu or Karthus are teamfight monsters but if people just skirmish, poke, splitpush and disengage, there's not much that they can do since they aren't strong duelists at all.

Stop thinking that champs are OP because you can't beat them 1v1 in lane.

141 Comments

slippykittenApr 10, 201533 votes

You are suggesting that the lol playerbase uses their brains, this is an impossibility.

missinggraveApr 10, 20153 votes

You may be shocked to hear this, but I have some news for you...

TheRainInSpainApr 11, 201515 votes

The vast majority of lol players don't, rather they expect to be able to play Charmander/Bulbasaur/Squirtle and know when they can win or lose, and when Bulbasaur somehow defeats Charmander, immediately rush to the League Boards and whine about how it's overpowered and need drastic nerfs.

The number of lol players that DO use their brain seems to have increased since Jan 2015, or it could very well be that all the whiners and meta humpers have shut up for the time being. Watch the trends; if you start to see people complaining about unusual positions or strategies "cheesing" League, actually learn why that may be the case before jumping into the hole head first.

DarksideEricApr 11, 201515 votes

{quoted}

The vast majority of lol players don't, rather they expect to be able to play Charmander/Bulbasaur/Squirtle and know when they can win or lose, and when Bulbasaur somehow defeats Charmander, immediately rush to the League Boards and whine about how it's overpowered and need drastic nerfs.

The number of lol players that DO use their brain seems to have increased since Jan 2015, or it could very well be that all the whiners and meta humpers have shut up for the time being. Watch the trends; if you start to see people complaining about unusual positions or strategies "cheesing" League, actually learn why that may be the case before jumping into the hole head first.

The League boards, ever since the old ones, have always been of the following mindset:

"Rock overpowered, paper is fine." - Scissors

Mecha MaIphiteApr 11, 20157 votes

blubasor is pretty op tho he has so mch spellvamp u cant fite him at any point in the game

im tired of being stuck in pewtur becuse kids abuse blubasor to beet me i desrev to at leest be in celadon

mi ramfanApr 10, 201512 votes

Let me offer you a thought experiment:

I propose a champion whose ultimate ability deals zero damage but suppresses every enemy champion on cast until they or the caster is killed. This ability may sound like bullshit because it lets his team push down the nexus for free when he hits level 6, but it's not! There is plenty of available counterplay to this champion, and if you don't take one of these easily available counterpick options it's your fault that you lost.

Alistar Fizz Gangplank Morgana Nocturne Olaf Sivir item 3102 item 3137 item 3139 item 3222 summoner 1

All you need to do to beat this champion is to never let him get into a situation where he's strong!

The direction of your idea is right, but the actual statement of it is wrong. While picks/bans and items are counterplay, they should never be the primary or only form of counterplay. If you need more evidence, read through the hypothetical champion above. Since it's impossible to actually get Mercurial Scimitar or Mikhael's Crucible by the time he reaches level 6 unless you're obscenely fed, you need to pick one of those champions or take Cleanse.

If that feels like bullshit to you, it should. The thought experiment above is intended to demonstrate that just one or two counterplays is never sufficient. There are three or four stages of counterplay that every champion should have, listed below:

Champion Select counterplay (counterpicking). If every champion has strengths and weaknesses, then there should be several champions who have strengths that target other champion's weaknesses. Alternatively, different rune and mastery choices may aid you in certain matchups.
Itemization counterplay (counterbuilding). In order to prevent counterpicks from automatically winning games, players need to have tools to play against enemies who counter them. This usually comes in the form of itemization; for example, any champion can build armor against Riven in a bad matchup. Similarly, Riven can counterplay the enemy's counterplay by building Last Whisper.
Standard Counterplay. Since itemization contains counters to itself, there's a chance that even choosing a specific counter build path won't help you once the opponent buys the counter item to your counter build path. However, the opponent shouldn't get an automatic win just because they counterpicked you and built the counter to your counter itemization. There's a game that works like that called Rock Paper Scissors, if that's what you're looking for. To avoid every game turning into best out of 5 rock paper scissors matches in champion select, we allow you to outplay your opponent in game by avoiding their skills or otherwise minimizing their power.
Strategic Counterplay. Some champions are just very difficult to outplay and very difficult to outbuild, huh? Strategic counterplay zooms out of the champion on champion scenario and considers the strategy your team chooses versus the strategy the enemy chooses. So now, even though you got counterpicked by Riven and lost lane, you're okay with it because your team's Kennen/Amumu/Lissandra/Miss Fortune/Sona will crush teamfights against the opposing Riven/Master Yi/Ahri/Lucian/Thresh team. However, the opposing team has access to the same information you do and will try to avoid outright teamfights in favor of picking off your individually weak members one by one.

So with that in mind, let's look at our thought experiment again:

*Can he be counterpicked? Yes. Any champion with a Cleanse does extremely well against him, and champions with spellshields can beat him with optimal play. Champions other than his counterpicks can also select the Cleanse summoner spell to give them an opportunity to escape. *Can he be counterbuilt? Yes. There are several items which can be built to reduce the impact of our hypothetical champion, including Banshee's Veil, Mercurial Scimitar, and Mikhael's Crucible. *Can he be outplayed? No. Thought Experiment's ultimate hits every living enemy champion on the map regardless of position. *Are there team-wide strategies that can be used to decrease his impact? Yes. Because Thought Experiment lacks damage and is helpless while any enemy champion remains suppressed, leaving one champion in suppression while the other four play effectively removes him from the game. This can be any champion on the team, including weaker threats like the support who may or may not be worth trading Thought Experiment for.

This champion has counterplay in three out of the four areas, right? He's got plenty of counterplay that can be used against him. Just deal with him!

**Even though he has plenty of counterplay as measured by this system, Thought Experiment is still bullshit, and would feel like bullshit to play against.**If Thought Experiment is left unbanned, the only safe champion selections are his counterpicks, many of whom are not viable in any team comp except against him (so you gimp yourself by picking them if Thought Experiment goes unpicked). Any champion who is not a counterpick MUST run Cleanse or become useless from level 6 until they can get a Mercurial Scimitar. And even then, if Mercurial Scimitar does not synergize well with the champion selected, they've wasted 3800 gold specifically to counter one ability of one champion. What do they plan to do against the rest of Thought Experiment's Team?

TL;DR: *Strategic counterplay, counterpicks, and counterbuilds are all other aspects of counterplay in addition to the traditional definition. *If an ability or champion lacks even one form of counterplay, or is weak in multiple areas, they become difficult to balance and overcentralizing. *Even if a champion has a strength that can be counterpicked, counterbuilded, and is countered by a certain team comp, it should still be possible to outplay them in their situation of strength.

DengedenApr 10, 20154 votes

Except you can stop pretending such a champ has or will ever exist(ed) in any way shape or form, rendering your longwinded experiment mute.

mi ramfanApr 10, 20155 votes

Ask yourself why a champion like that will never exist.

It's because if a champion is lacking in even one form of counterplay, or has low counterplay in several areas, it just feels like bullshit.

DengedenApr 11, 20155 votes

Ask yourself why a champion like that will never exist.

I don't need to ask myself that, it's obvious. The point of these stupid scenarios is obviously to insinuate that some champs come pretty close to being this broken ... which is not true.

It's because if a champion is lacking in even one form of counterplay, or has low counterplay in several areas, it just feels like bullshit.

I could come up with multiple BS scenarios (extremely gold efficient items, very synergetic jungle camp buffs) and they would all be pointless.

skippersdApr 11, 20154 votes

Ehm, wind wall. If you ever played a skillshot reliant projectile based champ against yasuo (ie: Ahri), you would know that there ARE champs who are pretty close to being 'this' broken. And ofc he has his E as well. Two ways of playing against your skillshots, that cost mana, and take skill to land. And all you have to do, to beat him is to NOT fight in your minion wave, and wait till his W is on cooldown. Sounds reasonable?

"but yasuo is not OP, he has Y% win rate". Yeah. After a ton of nerfs. He is numerically unviable for the Poppy reason. The champ itself is stupidly broken.

Ryu the firstApr 10, 20155 votes

LOL

His point is made logically. You just don't want to accept it

DengedenApr 11, 20153 votes

And if every human on Earth had a weapon of mass destruction, we'd have world peace or absolute annihilation.

Don't look at me, that just makes logical sense, it's just not something you ever care to think about.

I Am FlorgApr 10, 20154 votes

Cleanse cannot remove supressions, although that's hardly the main issue with your argument.

test accountApr 10, 201510 votes

Dodging a skillshot isn't counterplay to begin with. You aren't countering anything, there's no riposte on your end. You're just juking.

RaptameiApr 10, 20158 votes

The game starts in champ select. Counterpicking is counterplay.

Voluug13Apr 10, 20158 votes

This.

The problem is that Riot is making everything a skillshot, and basically nerfing the crap out of counterpicks because they want the game to be a twitching reflex fest as much as possible.

rebound2Apr 10, 20157 votes

Pick Draven into Vayne . Problem solved.

Or, into anyone with "no counterplay", also pick Draven .

In Primetime Draven's own words: "Draven counters everyone."

BluePolarizerApr 10, 20154 votes

Draaaaven is good, but it isnt about Vayne. Vayne is just an example.

GodhriApr 10, 20156 votes

Annie Malzahar Lissandra Leblanc

All the counterplay you could ever need for late game vayne in four champions. There are more but I'll just leave it at that.

BluePolarizerApr 10, 20158 votes

Vayne item 3153 item 3139 item 3046 item 3006 item 3035 item 3102

I'm not even talking about counterpicking, but rather counterplay through strategy, positioning and timing. I mean, yes, you can beat a bad Vayne late game with Lissandra or Malzahar 1v1 (no not really because they can buy Merc and Banshees due to Vayne's crazy base damage) but why even risk it? It isn't even about Vayne, it is about outplaying people not mechanically but by utilizing power spikes, terrain and rotation to deny enemy champs the opportunities to use their strengths while setting up situations where your champs can use their strengths.

When people get stomped by a champ, they tend to say "lol Zed OP" or some shit when they position like crap, itemize like crap and have terrible strategy.

GodhriApr 10, 20151 votes

I agree with you there. All this hype about Zed OP is getting to me too.

BluePolarizerApr 10, 20153 votes

It isn't even about Zed either. It is about how just because you get stomped 1v1 in lane doesn't mean enemy champ is OP. Same goes for Annie, old Veigar, Maokai and alot of other champs. It is about how even if you lose lane, you don't have to lose game, by positioning better, rotating better and having better strategy.

The only champs that are truly OP are those who literally cannot die if someone other than your dog is playing, to an entire category of enemy champs.

DanofDemaciaApr 10, 20152 votes

{quoted}

I'm not even talking about counterpicking, but rather counterplay through strategy, positioning and timing. I mean, yes, you can beat a bad Vayne late game with Lissandra or Malzahar 1v1 (no not really because they can buy Merc and Banshees due to Vayne's crazy base damage) but why even risk it? It isn't even about Vayne, it is about outplaying people not mechanically but by utilizing power spikes, terrain and rotation to deny enemy champs the opportunities to use their strengths while setting up situations where your champs can use their strengths.

When people get stomped by a champ, they tend to say "lol Zed OP" or some shit when they position like crap, itemize like crap and have terrible strategy.

I disagree not letting someone get to thier late game isnt counterplay or a strategy.

Voluug13Apr 10, 20159 votes

Counterjungling and Lategame retardation are counterplays, just as split-pushing.

The problem is that Riot doesnt like when people manage to evade teamfights and confrontations, and thus has nerfed lategame retardation and split-pushing a lot. Like 2 seasons ago, Lategame retardation was an actual mechanic, usually known as denying farm and exp. A good player could potentially deny levels and gold enough to make a difference.

And then Riot proceded to nerf this and increase EXP at low levels and reduce minion gold while increasing passive gold. Those changes werent bad per se, but a lot of lategam champions were affected and could reach lategame easier and faster.

DuobyteApr 11, 20152 votes

Which in turn means that early game champions are at a disadvantage and retardation methods arent as effective. The only way to beat a late game team comp is to pick a late game team comp as well and try to win early or outplay them in a teamfight.

DedriusApr 10, 20155 votes

Annie has no counterplay though..

IcyPepperApr 10, 201519 votes

Rather short spell range, don't clump together in a teamfight for her to ult, don't clump together if she flash+ults, merc treads, zephyr, banshee's veil, can be defeated by mages with more range Xerath , can be forced to blow her passive if you stay out of range and she needs to cs (especially with her Q, her main last-hitting tool), and her passive can be seen when fully charged so you know when she blew it on a minion.

She seems like it, but she has her weaknesses.

Voluug13Apr 10, 20154 votes

Basically, Annie's counterplay is as basic as you can get:

Dont be a stubborn idiot and try to instapick Zed/Katarina everytime thinking it will be a instawin or at worse, an easy lane. Learn to counterpick and safepick.

''But muh main'' Mains means that you play better that champion, but should play at least 2-3 extra champions in the lanes you play. Preferribly not the same role.

My main is Malzahar , but I also play Xerath , Lissandra and even Fiora / Pantheon when needed. They cover various roles and strenghts/weaknesses.

RrettApr 10, 20154 votes

last season i played veigar only from p5-d5 and had a 70% winrate...

Even won a game as adc veigar.

I hate it when people say you should play more than 1 champ. You don't need too at all, and I've proved it more than a couple of times.

Harry3418Apr 10, 20154 votes

Dude, it is not feasable to run just one champ and always expect to do good. Like how is jungle veigar gonna work?

RrettApr 10, 20152 votes

usually if I didn't get mid I'd just ask them to at least leave support open. Surprisingly out of some 50-60 games I didn't have to jungle once, I only had to adc once, and top a couple of times(I almost always won lane top). Everything else was mostly mid and if not they'd be nice and leave support open.

It's very rare for you to get neither support or mid from my experiences, and such a very, very low chance of adc and jungle. Well at least for me, I just said going veigar no matter, let me mid, if not leave support open.

The fact is though, I had a 70% win ratio during the climb and over 50-60 games. That's not by luck and that's far, far above normal, thats the winrate I get when I smurf in bronze-silver, and it's also usually the winrate pro players get when they're ranking up a smurf(unless you're absolute top tier like faker, piglet, etc).

Thats a far higher win rate then you'll probably get playing 3 champs, and dabox even got to top 10 challenger once playing only one champ(literally). There's also a lot more people who do it as well that I've seen and come across.

So unless you're going for LCS, you can actually get by playing a single champion and climb to the top of challenger(assuming champ isn't garbage). Playing only one champ doesn't hold you back surprisingly, if anything I felt it accelerate the rate at which I got better at the game.

PartholonianApr 11, 20152 votes

{quoted}

It's very rare for you to get neither support or mid from my experiences, and such a very, very low chance of adc and jungle. Well at least for me, I just said going veigar no matter, let me mid, if not leave support open.

I would interpret this as equivalent to "mid or feed", since that's what most people are going to expect Veigar to do in other roles. So I'm not surprised you got mid a lot, but I am surprised if you didn't get reported a lot.

Mikal PikalApr 10, 201515 votes

Why do people say this? How are you going to tell me champs like Chogath Lux Velkoz don't counter Annie. Her range is so short and she is so immobile that she has zero kill pressure unless she has flash up. All it takes is one gank and one defensive flash and she cant kill you anymore. If you out range her like many of the champs I listed then she is screwed in lane.

The real question is what is the counter to mobility? There are a ton of champs with crazy mobility...what is the counterplay to that? Well, Annie is one of them. be careful what you wish for...Annie is not hard to deal with if you are smart about her (same goes for basically every champ)

Skia AsteriApr 10, 20155 votes

If this is about Ryze , his problem was he got crushed by everyone that out ranged him so hard he basically could not win; however, if his number were decent he basically always beat everyone that had to come into his range.

The key in his case is he needed at least one ability with much greater range.

SociopathFriendApr 11, 20154 votes

Quite a bit of counterplay isn't actual mechanics; what's the counterplay against most Assassins? "Stay away from them"?

BluePolarizerApr 11, 20152 votes

Don't get caught. Position better. Be a bruiser, tank their burst and beat them in sustained damage.

This doesn't work, of course, against Zed who has both burst and sustained damage.

DivewingApr 11, 20152 votes

Assassin counterplay: Talon Step 1: summoner 3 summoner 21 - exh, you deal no damage (good for Zed TwistedFate Nidalee ) | barrier, i take no damage from your first part of burst then turn on you ( Lux Xerath )

Punish his god awful level 1-3 [4 is meh] (I STILL HAVE NO IDEA HOW ITS SO SHIT THEN IN 2 LEVELS GETS SO MUCH BETTER @___@), and once he hit's 6, either pink ward in inventory or just in front of tower range AT ALL TIMES, or for the love of god RESPECT HIS RANGE AND DAMAGE HE CAN AND WILL KILL YOU.

Rush zhonyas and/or any hp items you can

Level 9: item 3340 <- UPGRADE THIS

Wait what do you mean Talon's the closest assassin to being balanced.....? Shit...

Voluug13Apr 11, 20152 votes

Talon is the closest to balanced because he has crystal clear strenghts and weaknesses. He is pure burst, he can be counterattacked, he has horrible sustained damage, his mobility is only offensive, he uses a limited, slow-regen resource and has limited waveclear.

Compare this to Zed who has en easier time (and thus is better) that Talon is basically everything but AoE damage.

Talon cant dive you with 0 risk, while Zed needs to be CC-chained to be punished for a reckeless/bad tower-dive. CC-chaining very few champions have.

Even Katarina is more balanced. Her mobility is conditional, her ult has easy counterplay, she has very bad matchups and very good ones and has to put herself at risk of poke to waveclear.

Diana is a lot like Talon in this regard.

The inherent problem with Zed is that his design (CertaintlyT as usual...) utterly destroys, stomps and pissed over every healthy preconceptions and limits that previous Riot developers have set. The only thing Zed needs to be absolutely broken is hard CC.

Things he has over other assasins:

-Ultra Safe assassination Ult. -Ultra Safe Laning thanks to shadows. -Ultra Safe Waveclear. Actually, just good waveclear at all is a transgresion. -Ultra Safe, low reaction time poke that can potentially ignore minions. -All of the above on a low-costs energy resource system.

Potato DocApr 11, 20153 votes

udyr is not strong in a team fight

XD okay that one is a good one. Ill let you keep thinking that. I do both with udyr and find good results in both team fights and split pushing

BluePolarizerApr 11, 20152 votes

Unless you are way better than your current elo and get fed every game, it is very hard to do well in teamfights as Udyr.

BeoridasApr 11, 20152 votes

honestly i dont like this all counterplay religion hyperbole. IT shouldnt be like every champ is becoming more like ezreal. does his mouvement speed, aa , skin color has counter play? OMG NO? NERF NERF NERF. like honestly its tad ridiculous. ryze had weaknesses and trade offs. they didnt need to make Q a skillshot. we can live with it. but its annoying that this whole counterplay thing hits everyone. same way as people calls everybody toxic like a witch hunt just cause you forgot the dragon timer for instance. I dont like the culture Riot is creating.

aaronconlinApr 11, 20151 votes

"There is almost zero counter play in a 1v1 duel with Vayne" Rammus "Okay."

BluePolarizerApr 11, 20153 votes

item 3139 item 3102 where's your god now lol?

aaronconlinApr 11, 20151 votes

item 3075 item 3110 + Gromp Buff Rammus "Okay."

In all seriousness, Powerball to break Banshee's Veil, and you don't need to taunt Vayne to kill her. Defensive Ball Curl, Thornmail and Gromp will do enough if she tries to kill you, so Mercurial Scimitar will really only help escape the taunt and run away instead of actually dueling Rammus.

I once had an enemy Vayne kill herself in two hits after landing a powerball + taunt on her lol

BluePolarizerApr 11, 20152 votes

Heres the thing, you are talking 1v1 and with Rammus. There is no guarantee you will even get to a late game 6 item build as Rammus since he farms slowly while Vayne not only farms fast, people help her farm. Then you have the fact that with a specialized build like that, you are very armor heavy, so while in the context of 1v1 it doesn't matter in a 5v5 it does. Vayne doesn't even rely on crits for most of her damage. Her base damage from ult, BoRK and silver bolts is already very high, so she even has a lower chance of killing herself with crits than other ADCs.

KaishaApr 12, 20151 votes

In solo queue you can't control what the other lanes do to any significant extent. If they chain feed a hypercarry, you can't counter that. Its not balanced, and does not work. Making champs that when fed become unstoppable is the DOTA modus-operandi, but its an intentionally broken mechanic. Just saying 'well don't feed them' isn't a valid tactic.

BluePolarizerApr 12, 20153 votes

game shouldn't be balanced around gold elo solo queue unless you want LCS to look like gold level solo queue games. Alot of the issues in solo queue is a l2p and git gud nub issue, not a balance issue.

KaishaApr 14, 20151 votes

Classic strawman. There's no way I can get my ally to 'get gud' or 'L2P'. Failing entirely because of someone else's actions is just poor design. There's no reason why hypercarries (ie. champs that become virtually unstoppable when fed) even have to exist.

BluePolarizerApr 15, 20152 votes

game isn't and shouldn't be balanced for gold elo solo queue. It should be balanced only for challenger level 5v5 games on vent, because anything else means that the game is broken for the highest levels of competition and you'll only get 10-20 champs in the LCS as we see now. That's how DOTA is balanced, and that's why nobody in DOTA whines about "_____ hero OP" because they all know, if they only got better, if they only communicated more, if they only just... got good... that hero will be no problem.

That's why there are 30% win rate solo queue heroes in DOTA that are pick or ban in competitive 5v5, and nobody dares call those 30% win rate heroes UP.

The reason people blame Riot for balancing decisions is because they do not balance for 5v5 competitive at the challenger level, and thus, there are broken things that challenger players exploit, then filter down to solo queue and ruin games there.

IcyPepperApr 15, 20152 votes

This is a team game...?

You can't carry singlehandedly, and a team is only as good as its weakest member. And hypercarries have weak early games, so someone should have at least tried to help. Give advice, roam and gank their lane, something. If you don't try to help and just let the enemy get stronger, blaming your ally does nothing to prevent you from sharing the burden and responsibility of all your collective actions.