Why does the winning team need an advantage beyond levels, gold and objectives?

BluePolarizer··303 votes·8,951 views

Typically in a sport, the environment is always neutral. A team that is winning in soccer doesn't suddenly get to field more players or get to force their opponents to wear ankle weights. The same is true for e-sports. In DOTA or Starcraft, the winning team doesn't get the environment reshaped to their benefit. So why will minions be given extra damage for a team being up 1 tower or being up slightly in levels? Remember: there's no limit. If everyone on your team is level 7 while your jungler is 6, but the enemy had a Shyvana or Yi that was power farming, they'd get the minion buff.

Now let's see what being up in a tower means in high elo:

It already means that you gain a huge amount of map control to freely deep-ward, catch out, steal camps, etc. You now pushed the boundaries of "unknown territory" towards the opponent's base. It makes ganking easier. It gives global gold. It reduces the enemy's vision.

As you see, these are HUGE advantages already, just from the loss of a single objective. What need is there to artificially make minions even stronger and kick the weaker team when they're down? If you score in soccer, does that mean that the opposing team has to wear weights on their ankles? No way. So why is the losing team now being artificially handicapped?

If you are unable to actually win the game in a neutral environment, despite the vast advantages given by an objective, then perhaps you simply aren't as good as you think you are. This is doubly true for the new queue system in ranked, where there is absolutely no excuse for "but my team of solo queue silver scrubs doesn't listen to me the challenger stuck in silver due to elo hell" because now you can control your own team to group and push for the win.

The other question is: where does it all end? If games are now essentially decided (at high elo) at the first tower downed, is it such a stretch that one day that games will be decided by First Blood or even advantages as small as 15 gold from Skarner shrines or 10 gold from Kalista sentinels? Would you want to play a game where you spend 20 minutes minimum playing, but you might be doomed starting at minute 1, due to some random thing?

This change, more than any other, in my opinion vastly reduces the quality of high elo games. The best games for both playing and watching is a back and forth, where the outcome is not decided by a single event but by consistently outplaying the enemy team and making dumb mistakes cost you big time because everything is on a razor's edge. That's a good game. A bad game is one where the game itself is so tilted that once you get the snowball rolling, you can play like absolute crap and still win. That's bad because then random events have much more impact on the outcome of the game than actual skill.

166 Comments

ZephyrDrake51 votes

This season is pretty much riot saying "you know all those comeback mechanics we did before? let's get rid of them and just have the winning teams have free pushing waves that need someone on them 24/7 otherwise the minions will literally win the game for them. This will let them just go and snowball the advantage even more due to someone from the enemy team always needing to look after the minions, specially with the pathetic turrets we have now! because that's what everyone wanted right? weaker turrets!"

MohawkBird6 votes

[deleted]

Spoofghoul18 votes

Yes it prevent the denial of farm by freezing the wave if you are ahead.

However now it give the team thats ahead free pushing power so they can instead slaughter your jungle more easily aswell as put waards everywhere then get 5 dragons 4 riftheralds and 6 barons just because

iamleburk11 votes

Im 90% sure the main thing Riot was trying to fix was lane freezing. As if forcing someone under turret all game will be any less incapacitating.

Trias0006 votes

Only early in the game. Later, when the enemy threatens to take Baron or Dragon (I don't know about Rift Herald), they can just stall you at those objectives and wait till you have to go back to clear waves, since all 3 lanes are pushing towards your turrets.

Prospector Pete31 votes

I completely agree. I really hope that Riot will get rid of this.

ModKnightsKemplar28 votes

Your last paragraph hits an important point that I mostly left out of my post on the same topic.

We want close games. We want competition. I like it when games last awhile because the losing team puts up a good fight. That feels good. That is fun.

People have spent a lot of time looking at all the snowball mechanics winning teams have; let's look at the other side. The losing team can always surrender. It's completely possible and acceptable if the game is over. Granted, you might have stubborn teammates or whatever, but that isn't Riot's place to do something about, necessarily. If the game is dragging, there are already plenty of ways to end it, on both sides. That's all Riot should provide.

Changes that disrupt balance for the sake of faster games should be resisted. I suggest that we all remain open to play-testing; we might like it more than we think. But if we don't, let's make sure to keep respectfully explaining why. Minions are the foundation of the game, and it's crucial that interactions with them are fun and make sense.

BluePolarizer6 votes

thanks for the support. if League is supposed to be like a real sport, then have it obey the same rules as a real sport.

Flawless Fetus6 votes

I'd want all that if it were a single player game. Tbh, as a solo queue player, I hated it when they made the game less snowbally. It went from 'Im way ahead; i can carry' to 'bot lost so we lose'. I'm not really a fan of the minion mechanic, but I think there needs to be 'less come back' and drawn out games. If my whole team gets wrekt and we hang 'til 50 mins and finally win, it was still a very lame and unsatisfying game. Although these minion changes are questionable - I'm excited for less 50 minute stale games, and more snowballs.

ModKnightsKemplar8 votes

That's a unique opinion among all the opinions that I have heard. Some people call for faster games, yes. But I have never heard anyone say they want snowballs. Do you find/know a lot of people that share that opinion? I'm just curious.

JAGMAG2 votes

i personally am not sure about more snowball but i would like less comeback mechanics 50 minute games are just a drag and unfun like oh hey lets turtle for 30 minutes until they either throw or finally mange to dive our inhib its just frustrating

plus tbh riven and yasuo are both hyper snowball anyways i just dont play them much

Flawless Fetus3 votes

My circle of "league friends" is very small, but most of them share a similar opinion. I'm aware that we're a minority. I think it was the season 3, it could have been 4, preseason that Riot intentionally made games less snowbally because it is a team game. This makes sense, but solo queue doesn't really /feel/ like it's a team game. In season two or three, like I said earlier I'm not sure when it got changed, it was way easier to put 4 people on your back and ensure a victory. Last season, you could go 7/0 in lane and still not be able to carry. I know it's a team based game, and in ranked 5s that is great, but when it comes to solo queue I want to be able to ensure a win because I played the best - not because my team played the best. That might sound silly, considering it is a team game, but I think you'll get what I'm trying to say - even if it's worded poorly.

Ludovico3 votes

I´d say every Battle-bunny Riven player shares this oppinion.

Jokes aside (I meant it), it is IMO okay to be able to heavily influence the battlefield as 1 person. If you are a bruiser/adc/mage and you dominated your lane, you went roaming to get the rest fed, and then it all comes crashing down because the 30 minute mark has passed, and the enemy Irelia/Nocturne/Xin can oneshot you and your adc - just because they have a "better" late-game. Then that sucks. That sucks so hard.

In contrast: If you see, that an enemy is constantly killing you or the respective other lane, then the pressure of "oh shit I/we gotta do something, or this´ll get ugly rly fast". Sadly you only think this way with certain champions. If f.e. a Sion manages to kill his opponent a few times, you can just shrug it off and say "oh well, what´s he gonna do with that gold/hp :P".

I´m not sure I get my point across, but I´ll try to summarize it:

  • A decent snowball mechanic is important for LoL, or else there´d be no incentive to try your hardest on the lane.

  • Sure there are snowball mechanisms alrdy in the game. You get gold, can buy more stats, and have an advantage over the enemy team. But this is pretty much it (and I´m okay with that for the most part).

  • @OP topic: IMO it´d be better to empower players more, that deserve it; instead of a passive buff across the field. Sure, noone wants to deal with that fed Riven, but it´s not like you can´t. Every bit of power that is invested in humans, is not guranteed 100 %.

So instead of buffing minions passively (which is hardly noticable/trackable, because who calculates the team-lv and tower-kills in game??), I´d say give the players that deserve it the power of the snowball. This had to be more complex then "get a kill, get more gold", but Riot is alrdy moving in that direction with Cull. It encourages you to farm, and if you do good, you get rewarded for that.

Why do these things always turn out longer than intendet :( .

Anyway, have fun with these snowballs! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eDTrWeH8uqQ

Varda3 votes

Almost all of my games on this new patch have ended in surrender. Is that really what you wanted Riot?

ModKnightsKemplar2 votes

New patch doesn't have the minion changes.

Biffolo4 votes

It does have other changes that speed up the game and its snowballing though.

Pikmints15 votes

It really feels like Riot wants to take the average game length and take it down to 20 minutes this season. Turrets are weaker than before despite people complaining about them being weak last season, that mechanic people didn't like about Black Market Brawlers where one section of the map doing really well helped out all others globally was made regular, Rift Herald incentivizes either top lane or mid lane push hard early and end the laning phase faster, less accessible vision means people get picked off more, death timers get more punishing earlier, and there's no real mechanics introduced to act as counterweights.

I don't see the appeal of making games shorter on average as good games could be twenty five minutes to fifty, but forcing games to regularly end early makes it so that those late game champs see less play, unnecessarily clamping the viable champions. I imagine there will be constant buffs and nerfs at the beginning of this season to settle this chaos into something more stable.

BluePolarizer6 votes

I don't like that either. Individual snowballing should not be punished, but if that translates into team snowballing through anything other than getting objectives and roaming, I just can't see any viable comebacks for a losing team.

Let's say you were playing mid and suddenly super minions come down your lane because the enemy Riven running ignite/TP all ins your top laner under his tower, trading 1 for 1 but denying an entire wave of experience, then tps right back to lane and catches the next wave to be a higher level. How is that even remotely fair for you as a midlaner who is going even or winning, but now being punished for the actions of your top?

Previously you could just collapse on the fed Riven as she splitpushed then take a baron or tower 5v4. Now if you do that, you lose your other turrets because lol superminions.

ValuedCustomer5 votes

I'm getting this feeling as well, and not just from snowballing minions. More crits across the board on items, more passive and starting gold, cuts to defensive and sustain options, etc... All of these contribute to shorter games.

This begs the question: If this is really their goal, why isn't there more support for (or at least plans for) maps/modes that encourage short games? Why instead shoehorn a map designed for 30-45 minutes of play into 20 minutes?

Phoquelesanimaux10 votes

You said everything. This is the worst, dumbest change I've seen in this game. If it becomes another Heroes of the Storm, I'll just stop because everything is gonna be stupidly casual.

Canidae6 votes

I don't see how a system that punishes early game blunders (however slightly it does so) makes it more "casual."

BluePolarizer4 votes

it makes it more casual because a single mistake can now cost you the game but you are forced to play it for another 20 minutes. It also means that if you get ahead, the penalties for playing like shit are lower than now, where even if you are ahead, a single badly positioned teamfight can result in losing.

darknuke3 votes

That's not really what "casual" means, but your points are still valid in general.

KONO RUBICK DA7 votes

riot doesn't know what they want

ihaveapotion7 votes

riot wants 10 minute long lcs games so they can fit in more teams so more $

Kal Vas Flam6 votes

Because games need to end sooner. These 50 minute comebacks, while neato, are a huge time drain.

BluePolarizer5 votes

easy solution:

if you are losing and don't want the chance to come back, then surrender. If this is an issue, change the surrender time by -10 minutes per AFK or making it 3/2 for every surrender vote after the first.

if you are winning, closing out the game is part of the skillcap of this game. Get better at sieging, juggling aggro under towers for dives, baiting picks in the jungle, sneaking barons, etc. LCS players have absolutely no problem closing out a game when they have an advantage.

Earl Eulrich5 votes

yea, i also don´t see much reason why they would increase snowballing - though my best guess is that they want to shorten average game time.

Edit: it also heavily favours lane-swaps and hardpushing early (...so even more reason to just pick an adc in every lane)...

darknuke4 votes

[deleted]

BluePolarizer2 votes

same. I'm not playing Summoner's Rift at all next season until this change is eliminated which means a few ARAMs or so.

Duke Anax4 votes

What has me worried the most as a Support main: I am almost always behind the enemy team in level, becasue i spend time warding more than just my lane brush.

This means actively warding could actually cause me to throw the game. Guess if this goes through I won't be buying sightstone anymore.

Yaksha3 votes

On the other hand, if one soccer team scores 4 goals in a row, the other team's goals don't suddenly become worth 2 points each

This game never really was about being neutral

BluePolarizer6 votes

is not having a minion advantage for being 1 tower down the equivalent of a soccer team's goals being worth more or less points? No, the amount of points per goal is always the same. League before was like that: the environment doesn't change, only how you react to that environment. Now the environment is changing to fit the winning team.

Provengreil1 votes

but it IS about losing the game for 50 minuts and only even existing because your anivia is decent, then the enemy makes a tiny mistake and loses the entire game because death timers. the changed environment allows for greater comebacks by having the waves feeding your team, but not instant wins as the team needs to build the comeback.

BluePolarizer1 votes

Then it was your team's problem for not being able to splitpush and deal with the enemy Anivia. It is also your fault for not freezing the lanes properly and completely denying the enemy such that they have boots and cloth armor by 10 minutes in.

Poptart Evelynn1 votes

{quoted}

is not having a minion advantage for being 1 tower down the equivalent of a soccer team's goals being worth more or less points? No, the amount of points per goal is always the same. League before was like that: the environment doesn't change, only how you react to that environment. Now the environment is changing to fit the winning team.

IF you want to compare to sports then factor in they have a clocked time on when the game ends. League does not and suffers an issue of when the game is closed. Sports and League are a bad comparison with this factor. You can't just choose certain factors to compare and ignore the other ones lol.

How do you propose riot fix the issues of timing without punishing teams for making mistakes hmm?

BluePolarizer2 votes

the gold and level advantage of an enemy being fed is the punishment. You are now stronger, the enemy is now weaker. I don't see why that's been a problem. The problem with the minion change is that you could be going even or winning bot, and then because top feeds, you now have to deal with a stronger minion wave against you on top of the fed enemy top laner. How is that remotely fair or even logical? And even if you shut down the enemy top laner, the minions don't go away.

CatSith3 votes

If you are winning in a sport team you get a boost in morale and the losing side the latter, which does factor into a real sport game. >.>

TheNeemDream11 votes

{quoted}

If you are winning in a sport team you get a boost in morale and the losing side the latter, which does factor into a real sport game. >.>

You get a boost in morale when winning in league. Hell at least in an actual sport you aren't likely to get raged at by your teammates like you are in league by complete strangers.

Eevee In A Jar2 votes

The reason why the mentality of "If you can't win in a neutral environment, why do you deserve to win at all" is wrong is because not all champions are created equal. Some champions spike in power as soon as the game begins, like Draven or Lee Sin. Many scale mid game very hard like Riven. Some have the weakest early and mid game and have an extremely powerful late game. Some champions suck at dueling but are great at pushing minion waves. Other champions are great duelers but have horrible wave push. Not all champions are created equal. Two teams vsing each other with the exact same amount of gold and it still won't be a neutral or equal environment simply because, again, no champs are created equal.

Now looking at this new minion mechanics; what it does it if you are ahead, it forces you to look for objectives and try to pick people off. As someone who's behind, the wave will always be pushing giving you a chance to catch up. No one knows how efficient this will be yet until we play maybe a month or two. But for now, there's realy nothing wrong with any of the things you say. Whether or not it is a good game, you have to remember a win is a win and a loss is a loss. You think in pro sports people are saying "That was a terrible game, we didn't deserve the win so I won't take the win." No they take the win even if it's from a flopping call or terrible officiating.

BluePolarizer4 votes

it does not give you a chance to catch up. The enemy laner can just roam and snowball even further in 4v5s since your team MUST send someone to take care of minions or they will take another turret and snowballing the minions even further. Right now, being behind already means you are looking for free objectives and picks. That hasn't changed at all. What has changed is the penalty of being behind which is absolutely stupid.

Also, in pro sports, there is terrible officiating, but here, this is a game mechanic. Same as if soccer had the losing team wear ankle weights.

Formaldehyde2 votes

Because it's stupid that shitters can just turtle and come back. You should get punished for losing early. The game shouldn't be hard to close when you have a 10k gold lead.

BluePolarizer8 votes

if you are unable to win the game with a 10k gold lead, then you have a problem with your team comp or you don't know how to push every advantage you have.

Sojs2 votes

sometimes I wonder where you people get these delusional ideas

Lugg5 votes

Delusional? Try reading the patch notes.

Hosee1 votes

The game SHOULD be snowbally. If you destroy the opponent in lane, why should they be allowed to catch up against you in lane? Obviously if you beat them you deserve some kind of reward. If the game was neutral the entire time what's the point of outfarming, getting objectives, and getting kills?

Melvear2 votes

{quoted}

The game SHOULD be snowbally. If you destroy the opponent in lane, why should they be allowed to catch up against you in lane? Obviously if you beat them you deserve some kind of reward. If the game was neutral the entire time what's the point of outfarming, getting objectives, and getting kills?

The point of gettings kills, objectivs and farm is to get you to the nexus. Kill your lane opponent, take his tower. Kill bot lane duo, get dragon. Win teamfight, get baron. Get picks with your gold and vision advantage, force 5v4 teamfights or siege towers and win the game.

Snowball sucks, good plays are great. Less of the former, more of the latter please.

BluePolarizer5 votes

because if you beat your lane opponent, you should snowball on your lane opponent only (and to the degree that they continue making mistakes), not affect other lanes without even being there through a gimmicky game mechanic.

If snowballing was so good, why not end the game at first blood?

Punkkee3 votes

good point

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