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Why is CDR such an unpopular tank stat? Why do so few tanks get Frozen Heart?

darkdill·Mar 22, 2015·10 votes·2,121 views

Looking at Champion.GG, I always see that Frozen Heart is always eschewed on tanks in favor of Randuin's Omen, Warmog's, etc. It seems like the mentality is always "if you screw up one ability, you should die", and thus FH and other similar CDR items simply get neglected.

You'd think a Sejuani who can use Permafrost more often would be a nastier contribution to a fight, and being able to use W more would be better for damage, but it seems people only care about how much damage her W does with one application. Weren't tanks supposed to be better at damage over time?

And the same goes for Leona's; they only want to inflict one Q stun, one E snare, and one ult, and then be useless each fight, rather than being able to stun someone with her Q every 4.8 seconds. What a weird mentality.

And most of all, why is that "one ability use per fight" mentality ENCOURAGED?

Couldn't those guys ditch the Randuin late-game for Frozen Heart? A Sejuani would have over 4k health by that point, and CDR would be more valuable than toughness in longer team fights. No one's gonna 100-0 you by that point.

72 Comments

The5lackerMar 22, 201516 votes

Health is more relevant to most tanks, and CDR is rarely as relevant inside of teamfights as it is outside of them due to the relative speed at which fights tend to progress. Getting Permafrost up 0.6 seconds faster sounds good on paper, but in practice the trade-off of reduced health (And therefor damage on W) isn't really worth the CDR, and Sej isn't as mana-gated late game.

Plus, Randuin's also has a second slow for Sej to take advantage of should she need it.

darkdillMar 22, 20152 votes

Does she really need the Randuin late-game though? If she's got Warmog, Banshee, Liandry, and Cinderhulk, she'll already have over 4k health. Going into 5k is kinda overkill when you could be using your W 20% more often instead.

Early on, by all means, buy a Randuin. But perhaps in late-game she could sell it and buy a Frozen Heart in its place.

BeatzBoyFTWMar 22, 20152 votes

Does she really need the Randuin late-game though? If she's got Warmog, Banshee, Liandry, and Cinderhulk, she'll already have over 4k health. Going into 5k is kinda overkill when you could be using your W 20% more often instead.

Early on, by all means, buy a Randuin. But perhaps in late-game she could sell it and buy a Frozen Heart in its place.

Extra HP = More damage from her W. In Sejuani's case, she needs more Hp to deal massive damage, and FH kind of cripples her, and thus making her a bit more squishy. Thornmail is a suitable substitute for FH. Cooldown reduction isn't so much of a necessity for her, since her abilities have enough low cooldowns.

darkdillMar 22, 20151 votes

Is 4.5k health so much worse than 5k health?

The5lackerMar 22, 20152 votes

Is 20% CDR so much better than 500 health?

darkdillMar 22, 20153 votes

Late game, when you already have 4.5k, yes.

The5lackerMar 22, 20152 votes

Late game, when you've already hit the 40% CDR cap, no.

MessaigaMar 22, 20151 votes

Frozen Heart is still immensely strong if you need high armor. You can achieve pretty high levels of HP, Armor, and still have some MR with a build like: item 3725 item 3143 item 3110 item 3800 item 3512 item 3111

Gives about 4.2k HP, ~300 Armor, ~140 MR. Sejuani doesn't really need damage items due to Cinderhulk and the massive damage her W outputs. I'm not sure how good the Zz'Rot active would be on her but the stats on that item are impressive.

The5lackerMar 22, 20151 votes

Absolutely. Notice that your build doesn't REPLACE Randuin's with FH, however, which is the topic of discussion.

JustMyBassCannonMar 22, 20156 votes

Randuin's Omen is just stronger than Frozen Heart for tanking in the majority of situations.

It gives HP to go with the Armor, which means it actually increases your lifespan by much more than Frozen Heart. While the innate attack speed slow is slightly lower (without using the active), it's just an overall stronger option.

It's not that CDR isn't a wanted stat on tanks. It's that CDR is less important than survival.

DurzakaMar 22, 20155 votes

It isnt the CDR on Frozen Heart that makes tanks not buy it.

It is the mana and/or lack of health that makes Rainduins such a better option.

Old Man TeetoMar 22, 20154 votes

Sion loves frozen heart.

JamnonMar 23, 20151 votes

Try out item 3025 on him sometime instead!

Angry MonsterMar 22, 20153 votes

As a tank jungler; frozen heart has no synergy with the new cinder-hulk.

ABlueQuakerMar 22, 20151 votes

Yes it does. Cinderhulk is Pure HP in terms of raw stats, Frozen Heart is Pure Armor in terms of raw stats.

If you go, for example, mercs ---> cinderhulk ---> frozen heart you end up with a fair bit of effective HP against physical damage dealers.

And considering its cost, it's great.

My item path on Sej, Amumu and Zac right now is Cinderhulk ---> Sorceror's Shoes ---> Liandry's Torment ---> Frozen Heart ---> Abyssal/Spirit Viisage ---> Thornmail/Banshee's Veil/Zhonya's Hourglass (I'm a pretty Old School player when it comes to AP Tanks - I still go for the old Flat Magic Pen Build).

Matthias9119Mar 22, 20152 votes

Yes it does. Cinderhulk is Pure HP in terms of raw stats, Frozen Heart is Pure Armor in terms of raw stats.

FH gets no benefit from the "+25% to bonus HP" passive on Cinderhulk.

ABlueQuakerMar 22, 20151 votes

Yeah, but you already get decent HP from it. It's more of a multiplier for mid-to-late game like IE is for AD Carries or Rabadon's is for Mages.

There's better items to get earlier than Pure HP or Pure AP - it's why you'll often find a Mage buying Zhonya's and/or Abyssal before they build their Rabadon's. Otherwise they'd end up with an unbalanced build.

Angry MonsterMar 22, 20152 votes

Yeah, but you already get decent HP from it.

really... 350 health is decent health? I think someone does not play tank.

Matthias9119Mar 23, 20151 votes

For a tank - in terms of survivability, at least - you generally want to build HP and then armor/MR. That maximizes the amount of eHP you get with each item purpose.

Rabadon's is usually bad to rush because it's expensive and the percentage AP boost is stronger if you buy it later. You get an earlier power spike buying other items first.

DarkwindMar 22, 20151 votes

better build: cinderhulk->sightstone->tabi/merc->froheart/locket->froheart/locket->omen

ABlueQuakerMar 22, 20151 votes

Really not my style.

DarkwindMar 22, 20151 votes

understandable, but it's quite remarkable how well the items work together on something like cho. 30% cdr from locket and froheart, 800 hp from sightstone+locket, whatever bonus HP from your champ directly, the 350+25% from cinderhulk, 500 more on the omen, tons of supportive stats, auras, shields, and wards. on cho, it comes out to 3200 bonus hp (including 900 from R), 30% cdr, 150-175 armor, 40-65 mr, 32% attack speed debuff, 10% reduced incoming AA damage OR 35% tenacity, 230 active shield, and sightstone wards.

Angry MonsterMar 22, 20151 votes

I would say the problem with your build is the boots. I hope you are getting at least tier 1 before sightstone. IF you skip boots you are adding alot of extra secs as you run around. TIME IS MONEY.

DarkwindMar 22, 20151 votes

yeah, always tier 1s before that. whether i get sightstone before tier 2s varies game to game, i posted it that way, but ill often go tier 1s->ruby crystal->tier 2s->sightstone. I just hate to sit on a cinderhulk without enough HP to at least start to benefit from the 25%... it just doesnt feel good :P

Angry MonsterMar 22, 20151 votes

in solo q sightstone tanks are hit and miss, to each their own on that.

SirsirMar 22, 20153 votes

Health is just the dominant stat right now, with Cinderhulk and Gromp scaling, and how BotRK has fallen out of favor. FH is ridiculously cost efficient, like 3400G without the aura, but some of it is tied up in Mana, and thats just not a good stat on tanks. Its defenses are heavily countered by a single Last Whisper. And Randuins gives you a good MS slow instead of just an AoE aura which may only affect one person anyway. AND a good disruptive active. Alone FH is a better item, but in an overall build Randuins just fits better now.

That said Cinderhulk has changed my typical tank build path. item 3717 item 3110 item 3190 (or item 3065 if I have any sustain at all) item 3083 Boots and a misc item has been very good to me. FH and Locket are general dampeners for the enemy team and give me near the CDR cap for my disruption.

Meep ManMar 22, 20153 votes

Because Frozen Heart compared to Randuin's Omen is a lot worse since you don't get any health (universale defense) and you don't get the extra crowd control of Randuin's active.

Daedalus871Mar 22, 20152 votes

Most of the time I would rather have a Randuins first. A slow, armor, and health. If you only buy one defensive item, this is it. Then I generally want more health, which FH offers none of. Then I want some MR because I probably need it by now. Then it's time for another health item. And then the game is over.

Although now for junglers, something like item 3751 + item 3024 + item 3800 start might be worth trying.

ZACKandATTACKMar 22, 20152 votes

It is because health is a really valuable stat. Health makes your Armor and Magic resist more efficient. Also some tanks/bruisers don't benefit as much from the mana so it is pointless for them to get it.

SleepyLionCubMar 22, 20152 votes

Because you need HP to tank effectively

HeraldOneMar 22, 20151 votes

[deleted]

Angry MonsterMar 22, 20151 votes

no one runes scaling cdr quints.

Well no one in their right mind.

IcyPepperMar 22, 20151 votes

well if it works for him, why bother criticizing it?

Strategic diversity. Not everything has to be 100% the same in order to be successful.

Angry MonsterMar 22, 20151 votes

you got to be kidding?

There is a difference between a spin/strategic diversity and just being wrong or doing something wrong. As a sliver player you should understand that by now.

HeraldOneMar 22, 20151 votes

[deleted]

Angry MonsterMar 22, 20151 votes

HeraldOne (NA)
It depends. I typically use cdr runes for AP casters. ADCs tend to just right click on things so there isn't much benefit to putting anything on them beyond either flat or scaling AD/AR/MR.

I do a 15%cdr page for Cass with some other stats and no CDR in masteries because her passive gives 25%cdr at 250 stacks anyway so it will make 40% automatically.

A 35% rune page allows for some interesting builds like the 5 doran rings ham or 5x with some boot item, etc.

As I said it's a very hard early game. If I had the minimum required ping to play ranked (25ms) I would never run that page if my intent is to win a game at all costs.

thx for proving my point with this post.

Remlap1223Mar 22, 20151 votes

Health is more important on tanks, whereas CDR is better on AD casters such Gangplank Pantheon Udyr , and a core item on Ryze . That's because they aren't directly getting focused in fights, and could use something that gives them some presence outside of a little bit of damage on certain targets. The CDR helps them faceroll, the mana keeps them from going oom, and the aura allows them a better team presence. Since tanks are already CC heavy, it's an irrelevant item on tanks besides Blitzcrank , who benefits from his passive.

darkdillMar 22, 20152 votes

So you'd rather only Q once per team fight as Leona or Alistar?

DurzakaMar 22, 20154 votes

{quoted}

So you'd rather only Q once per team fight as Leona or Alistar?

Leona's Q has a 7 second cooldown at max rank. She is using it more than once per fight already. At 20% CDR that is only lowered by 1.4 seconds. You need 40% CDR to make a significant difference.

Yes, I would rather Q twice and have more health than Q 3 times and have less health.

Fizz is not FishMar 22, 20151 votes

because half energy bar by press E is real.

Shen

Champion SkinMar 22, 20151 votes

Shen... one of the few champions which getting mana might actually be a buff (it might weaken his early laning somewhat but it would be a buff to his mid game and late game where he would likely have the energy to cast more then his E... and it would make CDR a lot better on him which could allow him to use his ult and E more)

Laustin SpaceMar 22, 20151 votes

Irelia Maokai main and Frozen Heart is one of my favourite items along side Tri Force and Gunblade~

The12thman94Mar 22, 20151 votes

I play a lot of tanks and build item 3110 most of the time on Amumu Malphite Nasus I usually get it for the mana it gives me with the armor... O tyeebtwnks I play I don't really need it.

Silents429Mar 22, 20151 votes

Because health is better then being able to use an ability a second quicker.

I don't know what tanks you are playing with but it isn't uncommon to be able to keep using abilities in fights, and I see it often.

Nautilus Spams E Maokai Spams Q and W's to anyone jumpy Sej does whatever she does. Rammus taunts and does that AOE damage etc.

Frozen heart is only desirable late game against a heavy AA team, otherwise I have better options (As a Maokai or Nautilus)

ZeroAnarchyMar 22, 20151 votes

Rushing Frozen Heart is strictly only good against full AD comps. It doesn't provide any health at all so you are very vulnerable to AP. Randuins provides armor and health so it gives you a more durability over all.

AuryielMar 22, 20151 votes

Randuin's slow is really fucking good. If the champ doesn't need mana, Randuin's is probably a lot better. Tanks like Mao will love that extra mana to maintain the damage reduction, though.

20% CDR is really strong, but you have to take into account the fact that you might not actually get to make use of that CDR, so the instant power of Randuin's is really useful.

The way I see it, Randuin's VS FH mostly boils down to : Do I need to reduce the attack speed of several champions (ex: Double AD carry comp, Irelia/Jax top) and do I need mana? If the answer is no, Randuin's is the better purchase. Plus FH's aura is kinda hard to apply to multiple champions who care about it because usually one will dive your carries and the other you'll be diving.

TotalJerkMar 22, 20151 votes

It give no HP!

That's why you buy Warmog's or Frozen Mallet to go with it.

BorblandMar 22, 20151 votes

Frozen heart lacks Health, and most tanks don't need much mana.

It's simple as that, why buy some item, when you can get health coupled with armor instead ?

Cause CDR is good, but not on Frozen Heart, it's not good for tanks.

X FradyMar 22, 20151 votes

I thought item 3065 was a very popular tanky item, which has cdr and stuff. Guess I was wrong

Champion SkinMar 22, 20151 votes

item 3065 was insanely popular when it gave 20% CDR.. now.. not so much..... Now item 3102 has mostly taken it's place except on champions who use the healing increase or champions who really need/want the CDR

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