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My conclusion on why Lee Sin is so hated (+other champs)

Zenthon Prime··9 votes·1,309 views

He's been extremely popular for a long period of time.

It's that simple.

WARNING: UNPOPULAR OPINION SECTION: There are, realistically, no issues with Lee's kit that are far above and beyond those of other champions. His mobility is not the best in the game. It's up there for sure, but he's not frickin' Leblanc with two unconditional dashes that also give 2 blinks, or Kass with 3+ low CD blinks or even Quinn/Rammus/Udyr with consistent high MS. He has a fairly narrow skillshot-based dash and a low-medium range targeted dash that requires either a wasted ward or an allied unit. His damage early-on is high, but that's his entire role in the early-game. His ult scaling is fantastic (200% bonus AD), but if he builds enough damage to take advantage of it he's incredibly squishy. Finally, he's really not that overpowered. Even in competitive he's usually only the second or third best jungler at any given time.

And even if you disagree with all of that, which I'm sure many of you will given how these Boards work, there's pretty much no denying he's on the same level of pure cancer that is Fizz or Rengar, or any of the other various hated champions we have.

No, people hate Lee because they see him too often. When a champion is picked over and over and over, in Lee's case for 3 years , they will get tired of the exact same gameplay, regardless of whether it is well designed or not. It also makes a champion's flaws, even if they only have a few (not that Lee only has a few, mind you), drastically more apparent. This does not just apply to Lee, it applies to pretty much every popular champion we've had for a long time: Yasuo, Ahri (ok seriously guys if Ahri was at a 5% pickrate nobody would even mention her), Zed, Riven, Thresh, etc. Need an example? Zed is probably the most hated assassin in the game, but is also pretty much objectively the healthiest. Why? You see him constantly. Relatively small flaws is his design, like his ranged farming with W-Q, have become absolutely reviled over time when really he's nowhere near as bad as his competition. It's completely illogical, but that's how it works.

So what can Riot do? In my opinion, make these champions more niche if possible. Straight nerfs aren't going to do crap, but actively discouraging a player from picking a champion every game would do wonders. Example: I main Xerath. Even though I main Xerath and love his gameplay, I am not stupid enough to first pick him if Fizz and LeBlanc are open, because chances are if one of those is picked I will lose lane and be a detriment to my team. Champions like Lee NEED poor or very poor matchups against some champions to discourage them from being common picks. Obviously I doubt this would work for all problem champions in this catagory; I doubt Ahri's playrate will drop until Riot visually reworks her into an ugly earth spirit hag with the personality of Hillary Clinton. But it'd be a start, and something for Riot to look at after the mage reworks.

Oh right, and, uh, remember to waste several thousand dollars play fantasy esports on AlphaDraft. Just use the code "BLINDMONK" to get 31.51% off your first season! (note: value may change based on Lee Sin's current pick rate)

18 Comments

Dominick Destine5 votes

{quoted}

There are no issues with Lee's kit

[zombie-brand-facepalm]

Hayaishi23 votes

Lee sin haters would love if Lee Sin was as overpowered as they make him out to be.

He has clear counterplay and strengths/weaknesses, and even when he is fed he requires more than just numbers to carry, that is what healthy design means.

Zenthon Prime1 votes

Might be true. Doesn't change the issue at hand, sadly, which is that people really hate Lee.

The Voids Call3 votes

There are issues with his kit. His popularity and his power however come from his ability to always have control over the fight given a skilled enough player.

This is however unfair to the opponent, and very frustrating to play against, because it makes your skill as a player almost irreverent. You are forced to let him make the mistake, and outplay himself, instead of being able to look for an opening and capitalize on it.

E.g.

  1. You engage on lee sin, he double E's, then ward/minion jumps away.
  2. You engage on lee sin, he presses R, then ward/minion jumps away.
  3. Lee Sin engages on you, he uses Q,E,R,Q combo, and doesn't kill you. So he instantly W's away before you're out of the R stun.
  4. Lee Sin uses his W to set up his combo, and fails to kill you. You then probably have ~ 8 or 9 seconds to kill lee, before he can W away. But you're still likely slowed for another 3 or 4 seconds. **
  5. Lee Sin comes in with his W, combos you and you die.
  6. You engage on lee, he hits you with Q and E, then R. He notices how much damage he did to you, then follows up with the 2nd Q, to execute you.

Pretty much every 1v1 scenario you can think of, lee sin has the control over if there is a fight. Excluding against a few select champions who are also considered by most to be in the same boat as lee sin. Mainly Riven Yasuo

** also this is something that bothers me. A champion with one of the highest base move speeds in the game, gets a slow along with all the rest of his mobility. It almost doesn't even matter how much it slows, it's 4 seconds of "you're covering less distance than lee sin". Unless it's a 1% slow or you don't have your own slow, then no matter what champion you're playing you're moving slower than lee sin is, before bonus move speed or slow resistance. Nor can i think of any champion who has a 4sec slow.

WiegrafOfValor3 votes

I love how lee defenders argue that he's fine because he doesn't have the mobility of a top mobi champ Leblanc combine with the damage of a burst assassin Rengar with de defense of a tank Alistar ... Guess what kid, neither does the rest of the champion pool.

Lee is disgusting, he has more options than the rest of the champion pool combine, MOBI+DMG+CC and isn't squishy. Sure you're not a tank, you can't jump on the enemy team and sponge the damage, and sure if you build item 2045 item 3117 item 3742 you won't be bursting anyone, but that isn't your job.

Lee's job is to disrupt, create picks and engages for the team.. and guess what? he is the best and the safer on the job.. better than any other initiator out there.

JarvanIV : Great initiator, poor escape/engage and rely on his high CD to create a good engage. Leona : All in with no escape, also rely on CD. Pantheon : No escape, rely on CD. Malphite : Rely on his R to initiate, no escape. Sejuani : Tanky, Semi-Escape with her dash, but rely on her R to engage. Udyr : Have to walk all the way to initiate and escape, no burst. Amumu : No escape, rely on his Q+Ult or Flash+Ult to create a pick or engage.

Now comes Lee Sin

LeeSin : **Sustain, 2 engages that can be used to escape, great base damage, absurd scaling, Ult is a disrupt heavy CC NUKE with 600 base damage + %Max HP + 200% scaling. **

Now the cooldowns:

LeeSin : Engage tool nº1 [Q] - 7 sec // Engage tool nº2 [R] - 60 sec JarvanIV : Engage tool nº1 [E+Q] - 11 sec // Engage tool nº2 [R] - 90 sec Leona : Engage tool nº1 [E+Q] - 9 sec // Engage tool nº2 [R] - 60 sec Pantheon : Engage tool nº1 [W] - 9 sec // Engage tool nº2 [R] - 120 sec Malphite : Engage tool [R] - 100 sec Sejuani : Engage tool nº1 [Q] - 11 sec // Engage tool nº2 [R] - 100 sec Udyr : Engage tool [E] - 6 sec Amumu Engage tool [Q+R] - 110 sec

Mayor Stubbs2 votes

The big part of this post I agree with is that Lee isn't OP. BUT he is a top tier pick and has been forever.

A big part I disagree with is your statement about his mobility, it's not THE best but it is def one of the best.

I also agree people are sick of seeing him which is one of the reasons he's hated, but a second and just a popular reason (imo) is that he is hard/unfun to play against. He is pretty tough to kill / hit with skillshots because he has two dashes on pretty short cds, and a long range kncokback (his ult).

So yea I don't think he's op at all, I think he's strong and pretty annoying to play against. A huge con is that it's pretty tough to actually carry a game with him

Zenthon Prime1 votes

Part of what I'm saying is that one of the reasons he creates such an un-fun experience is specifically because we've all had to face him so many times. But yeah, I expected different views on Lee's balance.

Mayor Stubbs1 votes

{quoted}

Part of what I'm saying is that one of the reasons he creates such an un-fun experience is specifically because we've all had to face him so many times. But yeah, I expected different views on Lee's balance.

Yea I can def agree with that being a big part of it.

Tohob1 votes

does Poppy not fall under the category of a poor matchup for LeeSin?

half of his kit revolves around mobility, which for him is entirely dashes, and Poppy has a stop-all button that blocks out his dashes. theoretically that should allow poppy to shut down LeeSin entirely as a champion for short periods of time, yes?

Zenthon Prime1 votes

One champion isn't really enough. Poppy's a bad matchup, no doubt, but she's a single champion, and more importantly, not a jungler like Lee is. Having a counter in the same role is really what stops people from autopicking IMO.

Tohob1 votes

i was under the impression that poppy was primarily chosen as a jungler, that's what i've seen her as mostly. and i do agree that having more matchups that can shut him down is important, so hopefully riot will continue exploring the dash-stopping mechanic like they did with the projectile-blocking mechanic, as it would certainly put a cap on not only lee, but the rampant mobility present in the game in general

Zenthon Prime1 votes

Support and top for Poppy, mainly. In the LCS she's a contested support pick.

Dediguise1 votes

Actually ANY point and click cc champ screws lee. Warwick Nautilus Taric Ryze Jax Fiddlesticks

BluePolarizer1 votes

Jax/WW/Ryze don't screw Lee Sin because of CC. They screw Lee Sin because they have higher numbers if Lee Sin stands there and facetanks them which Lee will never do (with the possible exception of Ryze getting a snare combo).

BluePolarizer1 votes

Lee isn't amazing in terms of numbers. His numbers are high but not the highest for a bursty AD caster. He doesn't have the reliability of most AD assassins. He doesn't have innate tankiness. However, he does combine situational high burst with high utility, the ability to engage fights and exceptional mobility (one of the strongest in the game below LeBlanc, Zed and Fizz but not many other champs) and most importantly he can jungle safely.

Other bursty junglers Rengar Diana Fizz Vi Pantheon are either gated by their ult cooldowns, can barely farm their own jungle or fall off like a brick. Other initiators either can barely farm the jungle NautilusSejuani or require a ton of gold Hecarim ViMonkeyKing . Lee doesn't need gold, but scales well with gold, farms relatively fast and has great ganks. There aren't many champs that combine all 3 characteristics of the ideal jungler (item independent but can scale, farms fast, good ganks on low CD). Those who do Elise Gragas RekSai LeeSin Nidalee tend to be overwhelmingly picked in competitive.

Lucky Iccy1 votes

While I agree with your perspective I differ on how to fix it. My issue with it is that yes most champs have really bad match-ups. But that doesnt really work as a balance tool at lower elos for a lot of reasons.

1.You have to know its a bad match up, can I trust the bronze V mid to know taking a immobile squishy scaling AP into LB is a bad idea? 2.Will they do it anyway, knowing its a bad match, bcuz at low elos, "I wanna play this champ" is all that matters, I havent even seen ppl mention match-ups or team comps at silver 4, but I do see people running "xin and tryn bot lane" or some other crap that is so far outta meta for a reason. 3.The idea of bad matchs only works in draft, so doesnt help balance the champion for blind pick, which ppl still play for some unknown reason.

Overall I think Lee is hated becuz he has no trade-offs. If he builds tanky his damage is still alright, not great but okay, where as if I build tank with most jungles...they are just tanks. And no matter what he is mobile as hell and even while he falls off late game, Q-Q-R can still start and win a teamfight....Its not that he is even good at anything...simply that he isnt bad at anything

Becky Lynch1 votes

I'm a Lee main was Diamond 3 last season. Elise/Nid/Rengar/Kindred are bad match ups against equally skilled players, if you want to beat Lee Sin, you have to pick meta. The meta champions are measured against Lee Sin. If they are stronger than Lee Sin they are meta. If they are as strong as Lee Sin they are meta. If they are weaker than Lee Sin, they are not meta. I'm not going to discuss the non-meta champions, because there are many of them that completely counter Lee Sin, but just don't have the necessary tools to thrive in the meta.

Also, comparing him to non jungle champions is not fair. It's not the same role, they don't have the same jobs you can't make a fair comparison comparing apples and oranges.

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