Anyone else find it odd that Qiyana is AD?

Call Me Nana·Jun 10, 2019·79 votes·19,457 views

but uses elemental magic?

105 Comments

SaezioJun 10, 201944 votes

Well, teemo can blind lee sin. which is far more odd

Jerry SeinfeIdJun 10, 201919 votes

{quoted}

Well, teemo can blind lee sin. which is far more odd

even a blind man can be blinded by rage.

Frontline FuryJun 10, 20193 votes

{quoted}

Well, teemo can blind lee sin. which is far more odd

I think Riot made a canon explanation for this at some point, something about Teemo's blind actually giving Lee vision back for an excruciating couple seconds, before having it vanish again.

SaezioJun 10, 20194 votes

I bet the person that made that explanation was a bleach fan then.

+It's just stupid because he has a thing tied to his eyes. So, he wouldn't see shit anyway

Ionian VulpixJun 10, 201914 votes

Not really. The bulk of her kit is about hitting you with a giant, bladed, metal ring.

Olath QuortekJun 11, 20193 votes

I believe that is kinda the OP's point though. Why is an elementalist using a "gaint, bladed, metal ring" in the first place? Or more importantly imo, why is she not more about actually being an elementalist...?

Crescent DuskJun 11, 20191 votes

[{quoted}](name=Olath Quortek,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=jAvngqZa,comment-id=00060000,timestamp=2019-06-11T01:41:46.635+0000)

I believe that is kinda the OP's point though. Why is an elementalist using a "gaint, bladed, metal ring" in the first place? Or more importantly imo, why is she not more about actually being an elementalist...?

There are things like battle mages, though. There's nothing saying mages can't channel their power through weapons.

Olath QuortekJun 13, 20191 votes

And I won't really argue your point but imo your describing Yasuo. A samurai that uses a katana and channels elemental wind magic through it. But I would hardly call Yasuo an elementalist, he is more like an elementally aspect-ed fighter or something similar to a "battlemage" depending on how far you want to lean into or away from the "battle" or "mage" aspects of "battlemage."

I mean I could rabbit trail and tangent into oblivion here on all kinds of things (like what makes a battlemage, and how Yasuo is a bad first example because we all know he isnt a battlemage, but Qiyana really isn't either depending on what angle you are going with, and going on to explore all of the other examples that are probably better) but what it mostly comes down to is, in theory, a character can only focus on so many things: "I do one element but am good with a sword" vs "I do all the elements so how would I have time to master fighting with an actual weapon much less a giant bladed metal ring larger and heavier than my own body" Heh... There's the tangent-ing I was mentioning...

If someone wants to say in their bio: "She is the greatest elementalist the world has ever seen." I'm gunna be a little bit skeptical and confused when she shows up and mostly just jumps around with a deadly hoola-hoop (that isn't really even deadly because it is elemental but is deadly because its bladed?)

If the channeling her power through her weapon thing was a big part of her lore/bio I would feel a bit better about it but my mind immediately wants to devil's advocate and say "if you have to channel through a weapon, doesn't that imply your not as good of an elementalist as you could be?"

Crescent DuskJun 13, 20191 votes

[{quoted}](name=Olath Quortek,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=jAvngqZa,comment-id=0006000000000000,timestamp=2019-06-13T04:36:12.055+0000)

And I won't really argue your point but imo your describing Yasuo. A samurai that uses a katana and channels elemental wind magic through it. But I would hardly call Yasuo an elementalist, he is more like an elementally aspect-ed fighter or something similar to a "battlemage" depending on how far you want to lean into or away from the "battle" or "mage" aspects of "battlemage."

I mean I could rabbit trail and tangent into oblivion here on all kinds of things (like what makes a battlemage, and how Yasuo is a bad first example because we all know he isnt a battlemage, but Qiyana really isn't either depending on what angle you are going with, and going on to explore all of the other examples that are probably better) but what it mostly comes down to is, in theory, a character can only focus on so many things: "I do one element but am good with a sword" vs "I do all the elements so how would I have time to master fighting with an actual weapon much less a giant bladed metal ring larger and heavier than my own body" Heh... There's the tangent-ing I was mentioning...

If someone wants to say in their bio: "She is the greatest elementalist the world has ever seen." I'm gunna be a little bit skeptical and confused when she shows up and mostly just jumps around with a deadly hoola-hoop (that isn't really even deadly because it is elemental but is deadly because its bladed?)

If the channeling her power through her weapon thing was a big part of her lore/bio I would feel a bit better about it but my mind immediately wants to devil's advocate and say "if you have to channel through a weapon, doesn't that imply your not as good of an elementalist as you could be?"

The counterpoint to that would be pointing out that a good swordsman is not any weaker because he's not punching an opponent instead. The masterful application of force is what matters, not the aesthetic.

If for some reason you can craft tools to amplify your powers, you're no lesser an elementalist, just a smart one who takes every edge.

Moreover, it could just be a matter of style. Qiyana seems like a show-off, so maybe she wants to stand out with her hoola hoop (unfortunately I think she stands out for the wrong reasons, namely being the Nicki Minaj of LoL).

Olath QuortekJun 13, 20191 votes

The counterpoint to that would be pointing out that a good swordsman is not any weaker because he's not punching an opponent instead. The masterful application of force is what matters, not the aesthetic.

Right, but swordsman implies the use of swords and has nothing to do with punching; I'd say your example is reversed. A good swordsman might occasionally punch someone where applicable and that doesn't necessarily make him a worse swordsman but if two swordsman walk into a ring and one of them has to forgo the sword and punch the other to win, you could look at that as they are a better fighter but a worse swordsman. And to bring it more on point, it would be more like a swordsman steps into a ring with a mechanical arm built to enable his sword fighting if we were talking about Qiyana needing a weapon to use/channel her elemental powers. As soon as that swordsman walks into the ring without his mechanical arm he is toast in the same way Qiyana walking into the ring without her blade against an elementalist who doesn't need a focus is toast. Granted it doesn't say anywhere that she needs the hoop or that it enables her in any way and this is all just a theoretical based on the theoretical that they worked some kind of that aspect into her lore to tie the hoop into it.

If for some reason you can craft tools to amplify your powers, you're no lesser an elementalist, just a smart one who takes every edge.

This is all perspective. It's a pretty classic trope to have magic users clash over these differing perspectives on what makes a greater or lesser practitioner. If you have a toy and can beat me in a fight with it but I can beat you in a fight if you dont have it who is greater and who is lesser?

Now the style thing I actually agree on, the hoola hoop is a great way to drama queen as far as I can tell, but that still doesn't explain why she isnt an "elementalist with a bunch of elementalist abilities that just happens to also have a hoola hoop for show" as opposed to an "elementalist with a bunch of hoola hoop abilities that just happens to also do some elementalist stuff."

ZezockaryJun 10, 201912 votes

When Blitzcrank grabs someone, it does magic damage.

Honestly, if you think about it water, vines, and rocks are all physical things.

Fízz v2Jun 10, 20192 votes

Tho ice exploding out of your weapon is kinda a magical thing. But ay Im not complaining, as melee assassin Id rather be AD than AP

Call Me NanaJun 10, 20191 votes

{quoted}

When Blitzcrank grabs someone, it does magic damage.

Honestly, if you think about it water, vines, and rocks are all physical things.

wouldnt that mean that anivia, zyra and Taliyah would be AD?

ZezockaryJun 10, 20193 votes

{quoted}

wouldnt that mean that anivia, zyra and Taliyah would be AD?

What I am saying is nothing in this game has ever made sense in terms of what type of damage it does.

DerMangoJoghurtJun 10, 201912 votes

I think AP assassins just have less itemization options, compared to AD assassins. Anti-assassin items are also built with armor, not magic resistance. That's why assassins are generally AD, even if it doesn't really fit their theme.

Chembaron YamadaJun 10, 201920 votes

That's why assassins are generally AD, even if it doesn't really fit their theme

Fizz Evelynn Ekko Katarina There are enough AP assassins already in the game to prove that this isn't really true....

PhieldworkerJun 10, 20192 votes

Yeah. I think the only true solo lane AD assassins are Talon and Zed . Pyke is close but riot can change his numbers to force him back into support only. Blue Kayn is a jg. Rengar can be seen toplane but isn’t the norm and Khazix is generally in the jg.

DerMangoJoghurtJun 10, 201910 votes

There are AP assassins out there, I never denied that, but itemization for them is quite limited. AD assassins have three items which enhance their playstyle by offering synergizing passives or actives item 3147 item 3142 item 3814 . AP assassins have to make do with normal mage items, which can certainly work, but from my experience feels lacking compared to their AD counterparts.

However, you're right. After looking at the numbers, the ratio of AD to AP assassins is way less skewed than I originally thought.

D357R0Y3RJun 10, 20199 votes

bs, complete bs

ekko and fizz can 100-0 with mr pen boots + protobelt, ap assassins do not lack of items

not only that

but ap assassin items are more abused than ad assassin items

protobelt turns a simple mage like lissandra/sylas who should not be assassins, into assassins just because they can 100-0 you with it

Lunar ArcSJun 10, 20192 votes

To be fair ap assassin items generally just cost more. Lich is 3200, D-Cap is 3600 Gunblade is 3400. Youmouus and dusk are both 2900 Edge of night is 3000

I dont really like comparing proto to assassins because it isn't an assassin item. Ekko and Fizz build it but thats about it. And it's much less for the damage it's more so for the "i need to survive as a melee in a long range lane" I'd also like to preface that Liss and Sylas dont just turn into assassins buying it. No good lissandra would build it first anyway considering her mana costs.

LordGeovanniJun 11, 20191 votes

D cap isnt an assassin item nor is Gunblade One is a win more mage item and the other is a hybrid sustain item.

voidscalerJun 11, 20193 votes

Gumblade is absolutely an assassin item It's a hybrid assassin item, but it only offers a huge amount of flat damage and a long cd burst damage active, it is ONLY built on champions who are looking to one rotation burst their targets

voidscalerJun 11, 20192 votes

He's not saying ap items aren't strong, they are He's saying there is a very limited selection to choose from, and of that selection most are just generic mage items anyway A fix will by spec, proto lich, morello But so will a sylas (who's arguably a bruiser not an assassin) Lissandra will buy sorc proto and morello, she's not even close to an assassin on design Ahri will build sorc morello and can go lich Brands and luxes and xeraths will build sorc and morello Fucking ap naut will go sorc proto Ap items can be very powerful But they are VERY generic with most items being built byost champions While with as items they have much more of a class distinction There ARE assassin items which a bruiser or ADC (with few exceptions) will not buy There are bruiser items which an assassin will not get Hell there are bruiser items which not all bruisers get And items have a lot more specialisation in how you can build, while ap items are incredibly generic "fits all" in design There is a reason 9/10 ap characters end up with a zhonyas

ŚhunpoJun 10, 20194 votes

Itemization for the first three: GO LICH BANE AND STACK MAGIC PEN

Itemization for Kat: GO GUNBLADE AND STACK MAGIC PEN

Wow, nice diversity in itemization!

SaezioJun 10, 20191 votes

What? Evelynn doesn't rush Lich bane. And neither does any decent ekko or fizz. Whoever buys lich bane as first item on anything is just a big idiot. xD You need AP or the item is so useless.

xAcidikJun 11, 20192 votes

As someone who plays both, itemization for AP assassins feels 100x better than AD.

SaezioJun 11, 20191 votes

I think it depends on the timing. cause dirk/caulfields feels better than revolver but protobelt is cheaper than a full lethality item and it adds so much to an assassin both offensively and defensively. then 2nd dirk is really nice for ad compared to proto+sheen. then 2 lethality items are nice but it's not that much stronger than 1+dirk while sorc shoes +the previous proto+sheen is a real spike. I think both are at a healthy state all in all, but have different spikes like they should

xAcidikJun 11, 20192 votes

As an AD assassin, you're completely stuck building glass cannon, with just a bit of hp from Edge of Night, and there are exactly 3 items that you can build that help you accomplish your job. (I'm ignoring Zed in my argument here though, because he's an entirely un-punishable champion no matter his itemization.) With an AP assassin, you get access to Protobelt for HP and its active, Zhonya's for an insane active and armor, Rabadon's which will nearly double your damage at any point in the game, boots that give MP, Morello, Void Staff, Banshee's... my point being you can counterbuild, and all that plus Zhonya's stasis just blows anything that lethality has to offer out of the water. Not to mention, you don't need MP to one-shot with AP assassins, but you're trolling if you don't buy lethality on AD assassins. You're also fucking your team comp over fairly often if you pick an AD mid laner because most top laners do primarily physical damage, as do most junglers, and every ADC, and it's usually the midlaner that provides the magic damage.

All this said I still like playing AD assassins cuz most of them are cooler imo, but I'm also bad at league.

EDIT: Also, fuck Zed, he's un-punishable no matter what he builds, unlike Talon, Kha'Zix, Blue Kayn, and anyone else who builds Lethality.

ŚhunpoJun 11, 20191 votes

As an AD assassin, you're completely stuck building glass cannon

Hexdrinker, Maw, Cleaver, Triforce, Titanic, GA, Death's dance. I beg to differ.

xAcidikJun 15, 20191 votes

Play an AD assassin and try that, you don't do damage unless you build double lethality first lmao.

Hemulen MagiJun 10, 20196 votes

Yeah, I thought it was odd. She seems like a great fit for hybrid scalings. Also Lethality should be an adaptive/hybrid stat and on AP assassin items instead of flat magic pen in my opinion. That will resolve AP assassin itemization and potentially reduce some overlap with other AP classes' items.

Chembaron YamadaJun 10, 20195 votes

I agree, it is weird. Her thematic suggest AP, yet she somehow ended up being AD. The only way to remotely explain this could be that she uses her blade to channel this elemental magic and she is using this blade in all of her attacks...

FJMaikeruJun 10, 20195 votes

The only reason she uses AD is because Riot had a concept established for a new champion, but wanted an AD assassin, so they just made her AD. Yes, she hits you with a giant metal ring, but elemental magic does not scale with 'long swords' in any universe. She should have hybrid scalings. Imo, this is a major flavour fail.

fifek900Jun 10, 20192 votes

Honey please if we're opening that can of worms then we have to address whole ADC itemization. Most of ADC despite all having ranged weapons ranging from normal bows to even sniper refiles mostly buy swords.

Then we have special case champions who also scale "weirdly" due to itemization or ratios. Like Warwicks whole kit scales with AP despite him only biting and scratching, nothing magical about that. Or Urgot who builds Axes and Hammers despite having cannons amd shotgun knees. Whole AP meele assassin itemization doesnt make much sense not counting lichbane.

There are countless exapmless of this and i can go on and on.

Akali PrimeJun 10, 20195 votes

Akali stated in lore she cant use magic, builds ap "no one tells me what to do"

Sex Crazed EveJun 10, 20194 votes

probably because most ap junglers suck butt. there's like 2 semi usable ones that strictly build ap

HammermancerJun 10, 20194 votes

Taliyah throws rocks at people and builds AP, Nid throws spears and bites people and uses AP

it's just stupid

Sir SaltarinJun 10, 20193 votes

Looks weird

PhieldworkerJun 10, 20193 votes

I just think of Sivir with her chalicar. It’s magic but she’s AD. I know there is a little more magic in Qiyana’s actions but I try not to get to bent out of shape with it.

Call Me NanaJun 10, 20193 votes

{quoted}

I just think of with her chalicar. It’s magic but she’s AD. I know there is a little more magic in Qiyana’s actions but I try not to get to bent out of shape with it.

except sivir doesnt cause explosions, create wind invisibilities and cause freezing.

PaletongueJun 10, 20193 votes

Qiyana does her damage with her weapon primarily, making sense she is AD. The elemental parts of her kit are a bit more focused on utility. I agree with the commenter above that she'd be a good candidate for hybrid scalings, possibly creating new gameplay styles.

WolfeurJun 10, 20193 votes

I'm honestly still wrapping my head around Katarina's being AP

PopcornBunniJun 10, 20193 votes

Riot design is a fickle mistress.

Evelynn has no AD scaling despite half her quotes talking about tearing her victims apart and her reworked E still being a melee attack that deals on-hit effects

"One touch with desire, that's all I need."

"The more I cut away, the closer we'll get"

"Their mouths say 'no,' but their bodies say 'flay me alive' "

"Rend their flesh; flay them head to toe"

"Careful, I'm a biter"

"Some girls just wanna tear your throat out with their teeth."

"You look like someone I could hurt for days" (Has no prolonged damage sources)

Probs feedingJun 10, 20193 votes

I mean, Kat throws knives around and does magic damage and gets stronger with a wizard hat

MoonshadeJun 11, 20193 votes

Zed uses Shadow magic, MonkeyKing has a magic staff, Udyr uses Spirit Magic, Shaco magic demon clown, Riven magic sword, Pyke gifted with magic powers by a demon fish, Pantheon Celestial deity, Nocturne magical nightmare monster, Kindred literal embodiment of death, Irelia magical blades that move as she dances, Illaoi calls upon magic of an old god to summon spirit tentacles and rip out souls, Ezreal magical gauntlet

Olath QuortekJun 13, 20191 votes

To be fair, some of those champs are hybrid enough that they aren't horrible offenders here...

MoonshadeJun 15, 20191 votes

Shaco Ezreal Pantheon Udyr are the only ones, but still point is that AD and AP doesn't really define character lore, even Yorick is mostly AD and his entire kit is magic based

Olath QuortekJun 15, 20191 votes

Fair, when I initially looked at your post I thought you were mostly just complaining about full ad champions which is why the hybrids seemed off to me heh