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Ashe needs some gameplay and balance updates.

Khristophoros··17 votes·1,361 views

I'm not going to call Ashe underpowered like most people do. She's my best ADC. However, there are issues with her.

Her kit in general The first issue is, I think aside from her ult, the rest of her kit has fallen behind compared to the rest of the game. Volley used to feel like a really strong ability that was satisfying to use, but this was because there was less counterplay to it. I feel that the damage is tuned too low because it had less counterplay before. A direct buff to the damage may not be a great idea, but maybe it could apply a mark Ashe could pop with her autoattack?

Hawkshot Active Hawkshot, while a useful utility, I think has room for improvement. Either a longer duration or a shorter cooldown. Also, I think it should give Ashe assists for enemies that she gives her team vision of. There are times when the vision helps my team chase down an enemy and I feel like the game should reward that.

Hawkshot Passive Hawkshot's passive is sorely outdated and I believe inappropriate for her kit. I also don't think additional income matches Ashe's power curve. Her biggest power spike is at two items (IE + Shiv) so while the gold does help get there sooner (600 gold at 200 CS), it would help her a lot more to have something that helps a little bit in lane because the gold income is irrelevant if you're behind on CS. However, if your strategy is to farm during midgame and get your 3-4th item sooner then this would be a good passive. I just don't believe in this strategy for Ashe's kit because she's so good at midgame teamfights. Maximizing her E passive means wasting her midgame potential. I don't think this is a valid strategic choice. It's always better to go for fights with her kit.

Anyway I think something simple on E like a % movement speed bonus would make a big difference.

Focus (Passive) I know most people hate her passive but I think it's good just because of the Shiv + IE crit she can initiate every fight with. My only complaint is that if her attack target dies before her attack hits, the passive is consumed. I think it should only consume it if she successfully critically strikes an enemy.

A possible buff I could think of would be, if she kills a unit with a critical strike, her passive doesn't reset to 0, it goes down by maybe 25 stacks or so. So early game you could last hit with it and then get it back sooner. This would make it feel less terrible to waste it on last hits but as soon as you use it on a champion, they get the normal window of time where you're waiting for it again.

23 Comments

aperson16 votes

If they buff Ashe, I'd prefer it to be more in the vein of making her a powerful utility carry over improving her damage. We already have plenty of damage-based hypercarries, not too many who help their team deal damage.

And Ashe is in a pretty decent spot right now, at least in SoloQ where people can get picked off fairly easily. Admittedly she's pretty weak in competitive, but if Riot wanted to rework her to make her fit for competitive they'd have a ton of work to do, so I don't really mind.

LankPants1 votes

The problem with just buffing Ashe's utility over her damage is that you could easily end up running into a Zyra type problem. She already has so much utility, buffing it more could force her into a kill lane support role.

And Ashe is in a pretty decent spot right now, at least in SoloQ where people can get picked off fairly easily.

That applies to Ashe too, if any assassin gets on you there's no way to survive. She's bellow average in solo que. She's actually far more viable in competitive where she's sometimes picked with high damage mid/top/jungle teams to bring utility, C9 were famous for doing this.

AmazingGoat1 votes

{quoted}

She's bellow average in solo que. She's actually far more viable in competitive where she's sometimes picked with high damage mid/top/jungle teams to bring utility, C9 were famous for doing this.

She has a 55% win rate in plat+. She hasn't been picked competitively in a long time.

LankPants2 votes

She has a 55% win rate in plat+. She hasn't been picked competitively in a long time.

She has a 53% win rate in plat, with a 5% pick rate and an unstable win rate between 48% and 53% in diamond with a 3.5% pick rate. These low pickrates mean that Ashe is mostly being played by experienced Ashe players, so her winrate should be above average. In Silver/Bronze Ashe has a higher pick rate with a lower win rate, backing up this theory. Compare that to Vayne, she has a pick rate that averages at around 22% and a win rate that never surpasses 50%, averaging at around 46%.

The main difference between Ashe and Vayne isn't that Ashe is better for solo que, it's that people who don't play the ADC role are far more likely to pick Vayne than Ashe at upper levels. At lower levels the reverse is true to some extent, and Ashe's win rate moves towards 50%, although Vaynes does not this is due to the 'Double Lift Phenomenon' where every Vayne seems to think they're a god and get themselves pointlessly killed.

junglerboy163 votes

And Ashe is in a pretty decent spot right now, at least in SoloQ where people can get picked off fairly easily. Admittedly she's pretty weak in competitive, but if Riot wanted to rework her to make her fit for competitive they'd have a ton of work to do, so I don't really mind.

The only thing keeping her out of LCS is Mikael's crucible. If they removed that item, she would be pretty high priority for most teams because of her crazy strong initiation.

aperson11 votes

I agree, but I don't think Riot is going to change 1 item for the sake of a single champion's balance. I think they want to stay away from that sort of balance because of the problems they had with balancing Akali through Gunblade.

Then again, Mikael's is an incredibly powerful item right now, so it being removed is not entirely out of the question...

junglerboy161 votes

I'm not saying they should, I'm just saying she isn't unviable because she isn't strong, she is unviable because a coordinated team will always instantly mikael's the champ she stunned.

LankPants1 votes

I don't think Mikeal's only hurts Ashe. I'd say Ashe is mostly an outlier in the champs that item affects, most of them are tanks or mages. Amumu , Anivia , Annie , Brand , Cassiopeia , Elise , Fiddlesticks , Hecarim , Galio , Leona , Lissandra , Maokai , Morgana , Nasus , Nunu , Rammus , Ryze , Sejuani , Shen , Sona , Swain , Syndra , Taric , TwistedFate , Varus , Xerath , Zilean and Zyra would be the other champs who are greatly affected by it, obviously they all have different power levels but Crucible makes all of them weaker just by existing.

SmokingPuffin3 votes

Ashe isn't weak. She's a winning champion in all elos, last I checked.

If you want to see her in competitive play, you need to nerf item 3222. "Target arrow didn't actually land" is a really good button against Ashe, and the item is so strong that it's a rush buy anyway.

My main request on Ashe is to replace her passive with something frost-based. I really like it when the kit works together mechanically, and Focus is just this random thing that could fit on anyone.

LankPants1 votes

I think Riot said they were working on changes to Mikael's anyway because it's incredibly hard for the vast majority of the community to use as many of the stuns you'd want to use it on last 1 second or so anyway and if you use it 0.5 seconds into the stun it kind of does nothing.

Maelious2 votes

You only want Ashe to be good so you can abuse her to diamond, scum.

INTER5TELLAR2 votes

I play Ashe as support fairly often (Look at her secondary role on her champion page before making any cheeky remarks) and, tbh, her kit suits an aggressive poke support very well. The passive gets to stack much faster (albeit, it's STILL way too slow) so you can actually chunk in lane pretty well, the Q is great for assisting your carry getting an extra 1-2 AA in during a skirmish, your W is still very useful in lane as a poke, the E completely matches the sort of utility a support should provide (but the CD is way too long - I'd rather it be 30 seconds flat at all levels) and R is a great way to stop that incoming jg/secure a double for your carry. Tbh she makes a fun, rewarding support who does the job pretty well. You start with spellthief (don't upgrade it - the extra bit of damage/gold from poke meshes well) which you sell later, build a sightstone and from there build like a typical Ashe. I've had a lot of success with it.

That said, as an ADC, ashe's kit does need a bit of work to match the competitive levels that other ADC kits have.

darkdill1 votes

I like that Focus suggestion. Very good one.

I'd also suggest a snappier auto-attack, since she has terrible windup.

Executioner1 votes

FUCK STATIC SHIV

Krys Star1 votes

Personally, I wish her passive would continue at half the rate during combat on top of not consuming her passive when a unit dies before the crit can consume itself. That and more mana or mana regen per level.

LankPants1 votes

I think maybe 5-7% bonus crit damage on her E per rank could fit her role and really help to shift her into the utility-based 'hyper carry' role that she kind of leans towards. It would fill the role of late game utility carry far better than current Ashe and make her a serious threat in late game comps with above average DPS and great utility.

I know most people hate her passive but I think it's good just because of the Shiv + IE crit she can initiate every fight with.

After the PD buff (or net IE+SS nerf) I'm not sure SS will even be the best item for Ashe to build.

Khristophoros2 votes

{quoted}

I think maybe 5-7% bonus crit damage on her E per rank could fit her role and really help to shift her into the utility-based 'hyper carry' role that she kind of leans towards. It would fill the role of late game utility carry far better than current Ashe and make her a serious threat in late game comps with above average DPS and great utility.

After the PD buff (or net IE+SS nerf) I'm not sure SS will even be the best item for Ashe to build.

SS gives her really high midgame burst as well as waveclear.

I looked at the math on just her initial crit when she first engages, and SS gives you the most damage per gold for that initial crit. So I think IE+SS is still the best for a midgame power spike.

LankPants2 votes

SS gives her really high midgame burst as well as waveclear.

Ashe doesn't need extra wave clear from an item, Volley's already one of the most powerful AOE spells any ADC has.

I looked at the math on just her initial crit when she first engages, and SS gives you the most damage per gold for that initial crit. So I think IE+SS is still the best for a midgame power spike.

Can you post that math? As far as I know Phantom Dancer always gives you more DPS in a 'stand and fight' scenario. As you get more AD PD starts to greatly out DPS SS, it always has, even before the nerfs.

aperson11 votes

I was curious about the math, so I did the calculations myself.

First we'll look at the first "auto-crit" damage, then compare expected DPS and see how long PD requires you to autoattack to beat the Shiv damage.

Caveats:

  • Not considering Runes.
  • Frenzy is really hard to judge the value of due to the randomness of crits, so I assume it always contributes 5% AS. In reality it would favor PD slightly more due to being stacked faster.
  • Target is assumed to have 100 armor and 50 MR, which is 1/2 mitigation for Physical damage and 1/3 mitigation for Magic Damage.
  • I assume only 1 Shiv proc happens, during the initial crit. I don't factor the possibility of a second proc into consideration.

Since the AD and Critical Damage will be the same between the two builds, the only difference on the initial crit that Shiv has is the upfront 250 Magic Damage. Our target will take 2/3 of that, or about 167 damage.

Expected DPS = AS*AD*(CritDmg*CritChance + (1 - CritChance)) Discounting Runes: For level 9 Ashe WITH IE AND SHIV with 21/9/0 Masteries ->

  • Her AD is 70 (base) + 10 (masteries) + 80 (Infinity Edge) -> 160 AD -> 165 AD (after Warlord mastery)

  • Her AS is .658 (base) * (27.0% (per level) + 5% (Fury Mastery) + 5% (Frenzy) + 40% (Statikk Shiv)) -> 1.16 AS

  • Her Crit Chance is 20% (Infinity Edge) + 20% (Statikk Shiv) -> 40% CritChance

  • Her Crit Damage is 250% (Infinity Edge Modifier) -> 250% CritDmg

Plugging into the DPS formula, we get 306.24 raw DPS. After mitigation, that's 153.12 DPS.

For level 9 Ashe WITH IE AND PD with 21/9/0 Masteries ->

  • Her AD is 70 (base) + 10 (masteries) + 80 (Infinity Edge) -> 160 AD -> 165 AD (after Warlord mastery)

  • Her AS is .658 (base) * (27.0% (per level) + 5% (Fury Mastery) + 5% (Frenzy) + 50% (Phantom Dancer)) -> 1.23 AS

  • Her Crit Chance is 20% (Infinity Edge) + 35% (Phantom Dancer) -> 55% CritChance

  • Her Crit Damage is 250% (Infinity Edge Modifier) -> 250% CritDmg

Plugging into the DPS formula, we get 370.38 raw DPS. After mitigation, that's 185.19 DPS.

Now we find the break-even point. After this point, PD will be outdamaging Shiv.

(Initial Damage) + (Shiv DPS) * time = (PD DPS) * time

Solving this, we get an improvement after ** 5.2 seconds **. In other words, to beat the initial Statikk Shiv proc, you have to autoattack for a bit over 5 seconds with Phantom Dancer. That's pretty long in League of Legends.

Things that would majorly influence that value:

  • 5 seconds is a lot of time. If you properly stutter-step during that time, you could get another shiv proc, which will cause PD to take even longer to catch up (although it will eventually catch up).
  • Enemy MR makes the Shiv proc decrease in value dramatically, especially since ADCs generally don't run magic penetration. For example:
    • At 100 MR, it takes 3.9 seconds for PD to beat Shiv.
    • At 200 MR, it takes 2.6 seconds for PD to beat Shiv.
    • At 400 MR, it takes 1.55 seconds for PD to beat Shiv.
  • This assumes you ONLY have Infinity Edge and one of the two items. Due to the multiplicative nature of DPS stats, even if both builds add the same damage item to their build, PD's DPS will rise faster than Shiv's, making it more appealing.
LankPants1 votes

Her AD is 70 (base) + 10 (masteries) + 80 (Infinity Edge) -> 160 AD -> 165 AD (after Warlord mastery)

Her AS is .658 (base) * (27.0% (per level) + 5% (Fury Mastery) + 5% (Frenzy) + 40% (Statikk Shiv)) -> 1.16 AS

Most people run a combination of AD and AS on their marks and quints though. I personally just run 15 AD and that would increase her AD from 165 to 181

Using your DPS formula for IE and SS with this new number I get to

  • 1.23x181x(2.50x0.55+(1-0.55))=406 raw DPS PD or 406/2=203 mitigated DPS
  • 1.15x181x(2.50x0.40+(1-0.40))=333 raw DPS SS or 333/2=167 mitigated DPS

Then using the comparison of PD to SS formula

  • 167+167t=203t
  • 167=36t
  • t=4.64 seconds

So even by adding in my runes I've changed the expected value in PD's favour. This becomes more pronounced with a late game build, for this example I'll use a level 18 Ashe with IE, BT, LW, and Berserker's with one of the two zeal items running 21/x/x and my 15 AD masteries attacking a target with 250 armour and 150 MR.

  • SS initial crit will deal 250x0.41419=104 (Ashe has 6% magic pen from masteries)
  • Ashe's target will have 250x0.611=152 armour for 100/(100+152)=0.3968 multiplier to physical damage
  • Ashe has 322 AD with both builds
  • Ashe has 1.558 AS with SS and 1.624 with PD
  • Ashe has 40% crit with SS and 55% with PD

With the DPS formula

  • 1.624x322x(2.50x0.55+(1-0.55))=954 raw DPS with PD
  • 954x0.3968=379 mitigated DPS
  • 1.558x322x(2.50x0.40+(1-0.40))=803 raw DPS with SS *803x0.3968=317 mitigated DPS

Putting these values into the comparative formula you get

  • 317t+104=379t
  • 104=62t
  • 1.68 seconds

A much easier amount of time to attack a target for, this number can come down even further when

  • Attacking an un-armoured target
  • Receiving AD or AS buffs
  • Building Scimitar as a defensive item
Vesarixx2 votes

SS wasn't the best to begin with, it's more suited to ADC that rely on burst, Ashe is probably the best example of classic sustained DPS in the game, PD gives higher sustained DPS, building Shiv on her should only be done when behind for the cheaper build path and to use the avarice blade passive before completing it.

Edit: Forgot about the high crit/attack speed build, going PD and Shiv in addition to IE works pretty well on Ashe

Pengod1 votes

I second the motion to alter something on her E. A MS buff would be nice on it, which could help her gameplay a lot

junglerboy161 votes

I actually had an idea that changes both her hawk shot and her passive all at once to make her more kiting centric (which is already her number one core mechanic) at this thread, maybe you could take a look? http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/hdRmA9mF-well-i-guess-this-is-another-one-of-those-threads .

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